Talk:Mae Martin

Mae Martin's Guide to Twenty-First century addictions

Should the section on her comedy include reference to a programme she has done on BBC Radio Four called "Mae Martin's Guide to Twenty-First Century Addictions"? Vorbee (talk) 18:46, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Done. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 16:11, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

she/they and word/phrase usage that respects actual gender identity

Firstly, a person that offers she/they is offering a degree of fluid or reflective gender, which means that we go with how we feel in the moment when we interact with that person or as they interact with us. So the comment above that uses "she" is not incorrect. However, it would be innapropriate and incorrect to make "she" the default of this article; using just "she" for such a person invisibilises actual identity. But, most importantly, it is just not factually accurate to consistently refer to Mae Martin as "she". It would also be innacurate to refer to Mae consistently as "they" in an article. Of course, on an individual basis it is appropriate once again.

Very simple solution, I went ahead and replaced "her" with "Mae's" or reformulated so a pronoun is not necessary; for "she" I simply replaced with "Mae" or deleted a redundancy (pronouns aren't as necessary as they seem to be at times). The other solution is a mixed usage of both "she" and "they" which might be even more appropriate depending on more information regarding fluidity or reflective gender. Unsolicited advice to any folks that don't have to deal with the language game and think this is too hard, if you make a mistake with someones gender; the worst thing to do is double-down about the mistake, the next worst thing is to ignore the mistake, followed by apologising defensively ("it's too hard"), or you could just be nice about it and say "...she, sorry, he..." a nervous laugh is even ok, but do it every time you notice you are making the mistake, because if you notice, we definitely notice :)

category error solved - pun intended. 89.14.233.244 (talk) 11:00, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

@89.14.233.244: Thanks for starting this conversation! Obviously this needs to be talked about, since it is getting switched back and forth by various users (I switched it once recently). I switched it back to "she" and left an explanation on an IP editor's talk page for the reasoning (which I'll now explain here).

Wikipedia does have some guidelines on gender identity in articles, which editors can read about here: MOS:IDENTITY. As it explains, self-identification for gender identity is given precedence on Wikipedia. However, "When there is a discrepancy between the term most commonly used by reliable sources for a person or group and the term that person or group uses for themselves, use the term that is most commonly used by recent reliable sources". Since Martin uses both she & they pronouns, I think that creates a discrepancy, but if we're following guidelines, it seems like recent reliable sources usually refer to Mae Martin as "she." Taking a further cue from her official website, Martin also seems to use "she" to refer to herself (at least formally/commercially). I know it's not a perfect solution, but I think keeping the article written as "she" is the best course of action for clarity and to reflect current sources.

If your main concern is making sure their identity isn't hidden / made invisible, then I think the best that can be done for now is to flesh out the personal section if there are more reliable sources out there about Martin's identity and gender expression. - Whisperjanes (talk) 20:54, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

It's unfortunate the wiki has guidlines that do not respect fluid usage, Mae has expressed an interest in fluid usage, this is the invisibilisation I refer to. This is why I also did not use "they" in the article. Simultaneously, I understand the use of she, it really is a shame that instead of the reality we have to make an issue of it in a "special section" and conforming to wiki-"rules" rather than respecting actually stated gender-identity. I'm reverting to my changes, and request moderation from someone with queer competency. I'm still not sure why we need a pronoun when it's clear that the article can be well written without one, this seems the most consistent thing. I'll continue to be explicit with my (new) address (I created this topic) -> 77.183.34.131 (talk) 10:24, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

I actually called someone I know about this who uses they/them pronouns and who works for an LGBT+ homeless shelter, and who is likely to be the most queer competent person I know. They recommended either stating their gender near the start of the article (such as with a hatnote like we have for people whose surname is first), or explaining the matter quite early in the main body of the article (à la Sam Smith), or sticking to whatever the most recent sources use (which as far as I can tell is our current policy). Possibly one for an RFC I think.--Launchballer 15:06, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

I think stating Martin's identity near the start of the article could be good. I don't know how much Martin speaks about their own gender fluidity or pronouns, so I would like to see more sources so that it's not given WP:UNDUE weight (especially after reading this essay). The Sam Smith article is a great example (thanks, Launchballer).

Also, 77.183.34.131, I want to clarify that just because I mentioned the guidelines doesn't mean that it has the final say. The talk page is here for discussion and I was just making a note and suggestion. From my own understanding, Wiki guidelines are really just here to guide -- they don't have the final word; editors do. Also, I might have referenced the guideline, but I also referenced Martin's official website bio, which uses she/her pronouns when referring to Martin. If this is about respecting Martin's identity, then I would assume following what's used on Martin's official website is respectful. I'm also going to assume you are requesting for more editors involved in queer subjects on Wikipedia to join this discussion, so I'll mention this on the LGBT Studies Wikiproject so they can comment. If wanted, someone can post a Request for Comment, but since I'm not really familiar with the process of starting RfCs, I'll just mention this on the LGBT Wikiproject's talk page for now. - Whisperjanes (talk) 04:55, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

So firstly, promotional material is not real material. I still use my deadname (retired name) and old pronouns at work due to advertising inertia/fear of stigma/ etc. and other actors and performers and sex workers like myself are even more exposed. I experimented early, checking the temparature with my toes, as many do by saying things that probably made my identity seem inconsistent to others "you can call me he or they, but I feel more like a they or she at times". I fully expect that as time goes on this issue will become more clarified. Mae's adopted british attitude of "I don't want to inconvenience anyone" aside, it's clear that Mae feels ambiguous at times as repeatedly stated in previous comedy routines on the topic and on various episodes of "The Guilty Feminist". I'm glad that wiki's gender "rules" are more flexible than I realised. I also like the idea of a pronoun identifier near the top. But do keep in mind some people use no pronoun not for convenience as done here, but rather because they do not like any that exist. I appreciate this discussion and the effort everyone is putting in. If anyone wants a deeper dive into these kinds of issues that's not some kind of instrumentalising inspiration porn I highly recommend "Female to WTF". I'm once again the same person that started this thread and am very happy to see the progress in this discussion and that folks have been talking to friends :). 89.14.173.103 (talk) 08:44, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Actor vs actress

I've been seeing a lot of people changing Martin's profession from "actor" to "actress" recently.

Please leave their job title as the gender-neutral "actor". Most coverage of Martin refers to her as an actor, and she specifically identifies as more gender fluid, so it's even less appropriate to try to add a gender to her job title.

For anyone interested, I suggest reading this Wikipedia essay on writing about women using gender neutral language or this Wikipedia guideline on using gender neutral language. - Whisperjanes (talk) 20:46, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Info re actor/artist uncle Daniel Chatto (and royal aunt)

This sentence

Martin's paternal uncle is artist and actor Daniel Chatto, who is married to Queen Elizabeth II's niece Lady Sarah Chatto.

was removed with the comment: "Where does the source link Martin to this chap? why is this to do with their early life? why is it even particularly interesting? solve those and maybe we can take another look". First of all, just to note, the factual accuracy of this is not in doubt (although a previous editor seemed to think so). James Chatto writes frequently and with endearing paternal pride about "my brilliant daughter Mae Martin". Daniel and James are both the sons of the theatrical agent Ros Chatto (handy for child actors, as is pointed out in a biography of Joseph Losey, 1991, page 210). Ergo Daniel is Mae's uncle. Daniel married Lady Sarah Armstrong-Jones, who took his name. Bruce Dessau of the London Evening Standard mentions the relationship between Lady Sarah Chatto and Mae Martin in an article about the entertainer: "her uncle, Daniel Chatto, is married to the Queen’s niece, Lady Sarah Armstrong-Jones". So far, so uncontroversial, I hope.

"Where does the source link Martin to this chap?" The Telegraph article cited seems to be about the 2012 funeral of Ros "Agent to the stars" Chatto, before her grandchild's British prominence, and I agree that no connection is stated. It's simple enough to source the statement to the Evening Standard instead, which spells it out clearly.

"why is this to do with their early life?" It's family background. Perhaps better to re-name that section "Early life and family"? Growing up in a family of writers and actors is directly relevant to Mae Martin's life, and according to a 2013 interview with the Brighton Argus: "Reonnecting with her British roots is one reason Martin came to the UK." (As a side note, it's hard to separate the sections with any grace or logic, when "early life" might be taken to include that first visit to a comedy club aged 11, and "career" began at 14.)

"why is it even particularly interesting?" Some would say, any connection to royalty is interesting. Arguably that view is heard more widely, or at any rate more vociforously, in North America than in Britain, and Canadian readers of this article are likely to be interested.

This challenge to what I had thought was an uncontroversial sentence has sent me down a rabbit-hole of interviews over the best part of a decade, and very interesting it has been. I've fleshed out the article considerably over the past few days. I await comment on this avuncular relationship. --Carbon Caryatid (talk) 16:02, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

References

Thanks for your work—I've gone over it with some hopefully uncontroversial wording and typographical changes. The royalism doesn't interest me personally but I agree that the sentence should be re-included as it is relevant and interesting to others. The section is probably fine as "Early life" even if it talks about family (such things are standard in this common biography section header) and the cut-off point for "Career" is good too (but unusually young, as you say). — Bilorv (talk) 16:23, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. No objections after several days, so I'll re-add the sentence with the correct ref. --Carbon Caryatid (talk) 17:43, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Gender details not stated

As a reader I want to know something about this person and the person's origins. This article does not help me. Thus wikipedia is not performing its function of providing information, but is pandering to the way the subject wishes to be presented, in other words wikipedia biogs are becoming PR pieces. Not acceptable.212.104.155.43 (talk) 18:44, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Gender details not stated Reading the article, it doesn't seem this person's gender is relevant in the 48 sources cited. As a reader I want to know something about this person and the person's origins. This article does not help me. From reading the article, I learned Martin's date and place of birth, parents' names and professions, extended familial details, and details about their education. You may wish to check the section of the article titled, Mae Martin#Early life. […] wikipedia biogs are becoming PR pieces. Not acceptable. I can't find any Wikipedia blogs, by the Wikimedia PR department or otherwise. — Fourthords | =Λ= | 18:56, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

"Biogs" is short of "Biographies". As to the original comment: yes they are. Under Mae Martin#Personal life, the article reads: Martin came out publicly as non-binary in 2021. Martin uses they/them and she/her pronouns, saying, "I love it when people say 'they' but I don't mind 'she' at ALL."

If you want something concrete to be added, you should add it yourself. Find the references, write the summary and add it. If someone disagrees, then you turn to discussion. — Bilorv (talk) 18:57, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 April 2024

Add to the end of the Career section. In 2024, Martin hosted a special episode of CBC's The Nature of Things (in association with Kensington Communications and Gay Agenda) called Fluid: Life Beyond the Binary. See https://kensingtontv.com/index.php/2023/08/25/fluid-2024/. In the one-hour documentary, Martin explores the science behind sexual and gender fluidity, speaking with gender non-conforming youth and other experts. See https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/03/13/mae-martin-documentary-gender/. Thesocialduck1234 (talk) 23:02, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

@Thesocialduck1234: I've added roughly this text in Special:Diff/1221934110. Thanks for the request and the sources! — Bilorv (talk) 21:35, 2 May 2024 (UTC)