Talk:Macedonia (region)/Archive 4

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Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4

Borders-References

Most references, are based on books written by historians from the "Republic of Macedonia", and they cannot be considered reliable. In the sections Roman Macedonia, and Medieval Macedonia there are no references at all. In fact nobody knows which were the borders. I think that the article needs a lot of corrections and it cannot be considered neutral, compared with other articles.Jestmoon(talk) 15:49, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

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Language

In the article "Ancient Macedonian language" there is the following reference: Vladimir Georgiev - The Genesis of the Balkan Peoples, The Slavonic and East European Review, Vol. 44, No. 103 (Jul., 1966), pp. 285-297
ancient Macedonian is closely related to Greek, and Macedonian and Greek are descended from a common Greek-Macedonian idiom that was spoken till about the second half of the 3rd millennium BC. I believe that this reference must be mentioned on the map.Jestmoon(talk) 10:00, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

MACEDONIA IS GREEK; F.Y.R.O.M. SHOULD NOT BE CALLED MACEDONIA!!!

This article misuses country names and falsifies history. It is insensitive to the way the Greek Government and the Greeks view their identity that consists of Macedonia too, as Ancient Macedonians spoke Greek and they were a Greek tribe. Philip II in the 4th century BC formed the first Greek kingdom by uniting all city-states. Athenians and in particular Demosthenes the great Athenian orator, saw that as a threat to Athenian democracy and as a threat to the long-lasting institution of the Greek city-state, so he called the Macedonians barbarians as other Athenians and their allied did, other Greek city-states, as a political act and not because they believed it. Strabo the Greek geographer clearly wrote that Macedonia is also Greece! There international treaties and agreements that the official name of the Former Yugoslavic Repoublic of (Slavic)Macedonia with Skopiegie as the capital will NOT be called Macedonia, but F.Y.R.O.M. The author of this page is not considerate enough to at least discuss this issue and so respect to this debate between Greece, the European Union, the United Nations, the US and F.Y.R.O.M.! Corrections should be made! Otherwise, Wikepedia favors certain polemics and agendas in an unfair way that jeopardizes safety and equality on the Web! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:A007:D200:3987:6CBF:27FD:D0F3 (talk) 21:46, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 2 February 2018

I suggest we add a "Post 19th century" section on area "Boundaries and definitions" and refer to the origins of the "modern geographical region of Macedonia". 

Until the middle decades of the nineteenth century very little was known with regards to the geography of that part of Macedonia then occupied by the Turks.[1] Bulgarian geographers working for the ultimate incorporation of Macedonia into Bulgaria began to put forward detailed geographical definitions of Macedonia about 1890, and to justify their definitions on grounds of physical and human geography [2]. Of these V. Kancev's definition was probably the best known and most influential. The Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO), a notorious secret society, adopted this definition in its programme. Later, J. Jaranov, a Macedonian geographer, elaborated Kancev's concept in a number of works devoted to Macedonian geography [3]. Realistis (talk) 17:45, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. — MRD2014 Talk 23:59, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Wilkinson (Dec. 1952). "Jugoslav Macedonia in Transition". The Geographical Journal. 118 (4): 389-405. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  2. ^ Wilkinson (Dec. 1952). "Jugoslav Macedonia in Transition". The Geographical Journal. 118 (4): 389-405. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  3. ^ Wilkinson (Dec. 1952). "Jugoslav Macedonia in Transition". The Geographical Journal. 118 (4): 389-405. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

borders

The article is useful for general information. However some references for the the geographical borders must be included in the lead article. The phrase, = nowadays it is considered= , is unclear and the borders are uncertain.Jestmoon(talk) 16:12, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Imbalance in references

There is a great imbalance in the references of the article with respect to origin and thus native language.
Apart from cited authors which are apparently native speakers of English, there are at least 9 cited authors with Slavic origin, versus only 3 with Greek origin. I am referring collectively to Slavic, because the official language of the contemporary state of FYROM and the Bulgarian language are similar enough to allow mutual access to the respective bibliography for native speakers of either of the two languages. This is not true between Greek and any of the previous two languages.
Thus, this imbalance also implies that there is a biased presentation of the topic towards the Slavic side, as in general the sources of the Slavic authors are naturally biased to Slavic bibliography against Greek bibliography due to the access issue related to language (the converse would apply for Greek authors).
In order to mitigate this bias, it is necessary to balance the content of the reference list.
Astrophysician1 (talk) 18:51, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Inaccurate map

Linguistic zones in Macedonia at end of 3rd millennium BCE, according to Georgiev, Map 2 "Introduction to Indo-European Languages"[1]

The map that shows "Proto Greek areas" and "Proto Macedonian" areas should be remover 1) The Greeks were in far more areas, it has been revealed archaeologically and genetically 2) The term Pelasgian is used, the Pelasgian identity has not been determined and it is generally used by various Balkanic nationalists 3) Why the Macedonian area is not part of the Greek area ? Do you want to support Skopje nationalism ? Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 16:52, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

There are no sources in your argument. Furthermore, be advised that making assumptions about other editors' motives violate WP:NPA and in area under ARBCOM restrictions such as this one, that kind of behaviour quickly leads to blocks. The map is sourced; yes, the source is old and if more modern scholarship contradicts it tje map should be removed. The onus for making that case is on anyone wanting to remove the map. Jeppiz (talk) 18:46, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
The map of Vladimir I. Georgiev should stay. Geogiev was a prominent linguist - honorary Doctor of Humboldt University in Berlin (1960) and Charles University in Prague (1968). Corresponding Member of the French Academy of Sciences (1967), the Finnish Academy of Sciences (1966), Saxon Academy of Sciences in Leipzig (1968), the Belgian Academy of Sciences (1971) and the Athens Academy of Sciences (1977). Jingiby (talk) 18:55, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
In fact, the source has been falsified. Pages 47-48 and Map 2 (which is on page 147) do not correspond to the claim made by the uploader, see more in: https://archive.org/details/georgievintroductiontothehistoryoftheindoeuropeanlanguages1981/page/n149/mode/2up?q=Map+2. I have nominated the file for deletion. Macedonian (talk) 19:25, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Indeed, the source is falsified and should be removed. For example, the dotted line in the map, which corresponds to the irredentist concept of United Macedonia, is nowhere to be found in the source. But it is included in the map to "show" that proto-macedonian is "native" to "united macedonia". Khirurg (talk) 20:05, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
That too. Macedonian (talk) 20:06, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
The inscription under the map in the book is as follows: On the basis of the distribution of the ancient toponymy the Balkan Peninsula can be divided into seven or eight basic ethnic regions: Daco- Mysian (Dacia and Mysia = Moesia), Thracian (Thrace), pre-Greek (Pelasgian: southern and central Greece together with a large part of the Aegean Islands), Proto-Greek (Epirus, western and northern Thessaly), Macedonian (southern Macedonia, the basin of the Haliacmon River), Proto-Phrygian (north and central Macedonia, the basin of the Erigon River), Illyrian (Illyria and some neighboring regions), and probably also Dalmatian (Dalmatia), see Map 2. Jingiby (talk) 02:50, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
The only difference between the description from the book and this map, except the redundant boundaries of the modern region of Macedonia, is in the Daco-Moesian linguistic area that is placed into south. The Pelasgian, Macedonian and Greek areas are o.k. Jingiby (talk) 09:53, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
No Jingiby, that map is NOT according to Georgiev "pages 47-48 & Map 2", as the uploader claims. Georgiev does not have "Daco-Thracian", "Proto-Macedonian", or a dotted line on his map. The source has been falsified, plain and simple. Macedonian (talk) 16:25, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
Yeah. Jingiby (talk) 16:42, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Vladimir Georgiev, "The Genesis of the Balkan Peoples," The Slavonic and East European Review, Vol. 44, No. 103 (Jul., 1966), pp. 285–297. Ancient Macedonian is closely related to Greek, and Macedonian and Greek are descended from a common Greek-Macedonian idiom that was spoken till about the second half of the 3rd millennium BC.

Requested move 14 June 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved - there is a strong consensus in favour of a disambiguation page at Macedonia. (closed by non-admin page mover) Lennart97 (talk) 11:26, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

– Three years after the Prespa agreement (and the renaming of the Republic of Macedonia to North Macedonia), I believe it's time to move this article to plain Macedonia. This article is a broad concept that covers all the major meanings of "Macedonia" listed on the dab page and many of the minor ones. (t · c) buidhe 11:09, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

  • Oppose? 😬 I think the dab page is still the safest bet to have at the basename. Paintspot Infez (talk) 17:02, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Macedonia (region) still doesn't claim the crown title of the word 'Macedonia'. Despite the Prespa Agreement happening, there are still a lot of sources and searches referring the country only as 'Macedonia'. So I agree with Paintspot, it is good the way it is right now. — Tom(T2ME) 17:21, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I also agree with Paintspot. Egsan Bacon (talk) 00:03, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose move. Given the long-term precedent at WP:MOSMAC, any RM on Macedonia should have at least provided sources to show usage of the term. O.N.R. (talk) 18:23, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The kingdom of Alexander the Great is just as primary. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:57, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 12 December 2021

In the place where it says the following (Roman Macedonia section): "Although traditional scholarship attributes these changes to large-scale colonizations by Slavic-speaking groups, it has been proposed that a generalized dissipation of Roman identity might have commenced in the 3rd century, especially among rural provincials who were crippled by harsh taxation and famines. Given this background, penetrations carried by successive waves of relatively small numbers of Slavic warriors and their families might have been capable of assimilating large numbers of indigenes into their cultural model, which was sometimes seen as a more attractive alternative." I would like a "citation needed" to be added because it is not clear where this is sourced. This writing seems to minimize the scale of the slavic migrations while also downplaying possible forced assimilation by the invading groups. Aeolic order (talk) 02:02, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

 Already done It appears you have already done this. —Sirdog (talk) 01:43, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
Sounds like something Florin Curta would write. If someone could find the exact source that would be great. Kromid (talk) 07:58, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
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