Talk:Lough Neagh/Archive 4

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Basin Countries

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Closed as consensus for Norther Ireland.
It is certainly true that England, Wales and Scotland are all referred to as "countries" as is the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland is at the same level of subdivision as Wales, England and Scotland. So there seems no overriding reason to pick Northern Ireland over the United Kingdom or vice versa. It is true that in any other part of the world that Northern Ireland would be referred to as a province, or something similar, but that isn't what we do in the UK.
With regards to this discussion both arguments are made and neither seems particularly stronger than the other, so I see no particular reason to pick one over the other. I would suggest picking something consistent with other similar articles - which seems to be Northern Ireland so I'd suggest going with that. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:58, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Can someone explain the percentages involved?

Also why is "Basin" linked to a "Drainage basin" wiki page? Hackneyhound (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:14, 24 February 2012 (UTC).

The percentages refer to the proportion of the lough's drainage basin on either side of the border.
I've checked the infobox for this field, but can you.prove these percentages as the current link is no longer active.Hackneyhound (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:41, 25 February 2012 (UTC).
I've made a change to the text removing information from dead source.Hackneyhound (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:10, 1 March 2012 (UTC).
The reference has been re-added. It took about 2 seconds to find the missing page. Maybe next time consider spending a couple of seconds looking for the reference rather than removing it or if you can't be bother add a deadlink tag so someone can. Bjmullan (talk) 17:38, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
any objections if I change basin countries to NI and ROI? inline with other lough pages in NI, eg. Carlingford lough, foyle lough. And the reference states percentages vs ROI and NI. Does not assume contribution of precipitation carried from the rest of the UK. Also the basin is piped to a sink basin, so will fix that.Factocop (talk) 10:28, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure Cairlinfurd and Foyle are comparable because they're both on the NI–ROI border and state as such. Strangfurd, Belfast or Larne would be better examples, but they don't have infoboxes. As regards Neagh, I don't think I needs to say Northern Ireland twice, and the field that current says "United Kingdom" is marked basin countries... — Jon C.ॐ 09:03, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
Well I guess if you look at any of the surrounding towns of Lough Neagh, many, if not all say Country:NI. I guess maybe the only comparable one is Lough Erne which would be inline with the proposed change. See also Lough Beg, Lough Clea, Lough Enagh, Lough MacNean. But your right, Belfast Lough, Larne Lough and Strangford do not have infoboxes applied. So of the 9 loughs in NI from [List of loughs in Ireland] 3 do not have infobox, 5 have list NI as basin country and the 9th one is Lough Neagh. I thought that my edit was correct at Lough Neagh as there was obviously a degree of edit warring at Carlingford Lough and Lough Foyle and that their current formats were a compromise and excepted by all and so could be applied here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factocop (talk • contribs) 09:20, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
I object and prefer UK as reverted by JonC. Mo ainm~Talk 12:21, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for joining Mo. Do you have a reason for your objection?Factocop (talk) 13:08, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
NI is not a country, it is part of the UK Mo ainm~Talk 13:12, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
Sounds like POV to me. I just thought the page should reflect the consensus gained at other Lough pages in NI. Factocop (talk) 13:19, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
You've certainly changed your tune here, Mo. At G. E. M. Anscombe you're of the opinion that the country in unnecessary and that only the constituent part is needed, yet now you're arguing much the opposite. Can you explain why? — Jon C.ॐ 13:26, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
Very Funny!Factocop (talk) 13:30, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
Where in Northern Ireland does it say it is a country? Mo ainm~Talk 13:30, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a reliable source. — Jon C.ॐ 13:34, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
So you have one that says it is a country? Mo ainm~Talk 13:36, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
Fifa? — Jon C.ॐ 13:40, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
Yawn, here are some found by another editor,
  1. "One specific problem - in both general and particular senses - is to know what to call Northern Ireland itself: in the general sense, it is not a country, or a province, or a state - although some refer to it contemptuously as a statelet: the least controversial word appears to be jurisdiction, but this might change." - S. Dunn and H. Dawson, 2000, An Alphabetical Listing of Word, Name and Place in Northern Ireland and the Living Language of Conflict, Edwin Mellen Press: Lampeter
  2. "Next - what noun is appropriate to Northern Ireland? 'Province' won't do since one-third of the province is on the wrong side of the border. 'State' implies more self-determination than Northern Ireland has ever had and 'country' or 'nation' are blatantly absurd. 'Colony' has overtones that would be resented by both communities and 'statelet' sounds too patronizing, though outsiders might consider it more precise than anything else; so one is left with the unsatisfactory word 'region'." - D. Murphy, 1979, A Place Apart, Penguin Books: London
  3. "Although a seat of government, strictly speaking Belfast is not a 'capital' since Northern Ireland is not a 'country', at least not in the same sense that England, Scotland and Wales are 'countries'." - J Morrill, 2004, The promotion of knowledge: lectures to mark the Centenary of the British Academy 1992-2002, Oxford University Press: Oxford
  4. "Not a country in itself, Northern Ireland consists of six of the thirty-two original counties of Ireland, all part of the section of that island historically known as Ulster." - J V Til, 2008, Breaching Derry's walls: the quest for a lasting peace in Northern Ireland, University Press of America
  5. "Northern Ireland is not a country in itself, but a small fragment torn from the living body of Ireland where now the last act of its long struggle for independence is being played out." - W V Shannon, Northern Ireland and America's Responsibility in K M. Cahill (ed), 1984, The American Irish revival: a decade of the Recorder, 1974-1983, Associated Faculty Press
  6. "Northern Ireland (though of course not a country) was the only other place where terrorism can be said to have achieved a comparable social impact." - M Crenshaw, 1985, An Organizational Approach to the Analysis of Political Terrorism in Orbis, 29 (3)
  7. "The study compare attitudes in Belgium, Denmark, Spain, France, the UK, Holland, Ireland, Italy and West Germany. It also includes Northern Ireland, which of course is not a country." - P Kurzer, 2001, Markets and moral regulation: cultural change in the European Union, Cambridge University Press: Cambridge
  8. "As I see it, I'm an Irish Unionist. I'm Irish, that's my race if you like. My identify is British, because that it the way I have been brought up, and I identify with Britain and there are historical bonds, psychological bonds, emotional bonds, all the rest of it you know. ... Bit to talk of independence in Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland is not a country, Northern Ireland is a province of Ireland and it is a province in the UK and I think that the notion of a national identity or group identity or racial identity or cultural identity here is a nonsense." - Michael McGimpsey quoted in F. Cochrane, 2001, Unionist politics and the politics of Unionism since the Anglo-Irish Agreement, Cork University Press: Cork
  9. "Moreover, Northern Ireland is a province, not a country. Even before direct rule, many of the decisions affecting the economy, labour law, and wage bargaining were in reality taken in London, thereby diminishing the importance of local control." A Aughey, 1996, Duncan Morrow, Northern Ireland Politics, Longmon: London Mo ainm~Talk 13:48, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
Yawn!!!! Seen these references a hundred times before. Cut and paste job. We both know there are a hundred more supporting the status of NI. So whats your point? Of the 9 or so Loughs in NI, 6 have infoboxes and 3 do not. Of those 6, 5 state NI as a basin Country. Including Carlingford Lough, where you have been a contributor and Lough Foyle where an infobox was applied by your running buddy Bjmullan. So I can't see why you have taken issue with this page.Factocop (talk) 13:56, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
Which goes to prove that it is POV, UK is factually correct. Mo ainm~Talk 14:02, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
That statement is neither here nor there.
Which goes to prove that it is POV, NI is factually correct.
I'd say that Wikipedia lists NI as a country more over Uk on NI related pages. So if your going page to page, forcing POV then you will be at it a while. Factocop (talk) 14:19, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
I guess Ill look to get an impartial opinion. Common sense ignored once again just to force a pov. nothing has changed on Wiki. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factocop (talk • contribs) 09:13, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Tone done the language Factocop it only foments bad faith and incivility.

Also rather than copy and pasting in exact order sources that back up only one point of view, maybe we could actually provide the link to these sources to give any editors interested the sources for both points of view - of which there are clearly more for Northern Ireland being called a country than not. There are issues with some sources for both points of view, but the weight in favour of is there.

Regardless of sources United Kingdom is the sovereign state that Lough Neagh belongs to and should be 1st preference, however as pointed out there are other related articles that say "Northern Ireland" in the "Basin Countries" part. If 5 out of 6 lough articles state "Northern Ireland", then we should why aim for consistency and make this one the same. Also note how the Infobox for settlements in Northern Ireland state "Country: Northern Ireland". Mabuska (talk) 10:47, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Well wikipedia is full of inaccuracies depending on who is watching a particular page. But it seems logical to change this to have NI as basin countries considering 5 out of 6 loughs already use this and lough neagh is surrounding by settlements that list NI as a country.Factocop (talk) 11:34, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Request for comment on proposed edit. I wish to change the basin countries field to include Northern Ireland in place of United Kingdom on the Lough Neagh page. 5 out of 6 loughs in Northern Ireland already use Northern Ireland in the Basin Country field. So this edit is consistent with other related pages. Also the lough is surrounded by towns and villages using the Settlements template that use Northern Ireland in the country field.

User:Elen_of_the_Roads also seemed to think this was an acceptable edit here..[1]. Factocop (talk) 14:09, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
Note that from above convo Hackneyhound is blocked, bjmullan/Mo_ainm have retired.Factocop (talk) 09:55, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Additional note Hackneyhound is a blocked sock of Factocop the editor starting this RFC. Mo ainm~Talk 20:15, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
Another pointless contribution from Mo_ainm. Get use to it.Factocop (talk) 21:52, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
Welcome back! We missed you. — Jon C.ॐ 08:03, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
Support change UK to NI in basin country field.46.7.113.111 (talk) 21:15, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Whilst I agree with the IPs change, the discussion hasn't resolved so I grudingly reverted it. It also is very curious that this IP suddenly appears to edit this article after Factocop was blocked so I'm guessing it's either pure coincidence or sock-puppeting. Mabuska (talk) 21:21, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

This rfc does not appear to be high on priority on the rfc board. I've made the edit per marginal consensus, and on the grounds of common sense, if there is such a thing on wikipedia.46.7.113.111 (talk) 16:33, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
Please wait for discussion to finish. Mdann52 (talk) 16:34, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
I've been "randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate" but need to know some background before making any comment. I strongly suspect anyone else who hasn't been a regular editor on this article will need more information also. Give some background on the terms (lough, Basin Country field, Settlements template) and what the precedent are for using Northern Ireland in place of United Kingdom. --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:13, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
@BoogaLouie, taken from above change the basin countries field to include Northern Ireland in place of United Kingdom on the Lough Neagh page. 5 out of 6 loughs in Northern Ireland already use Northern Ireland in the Basin Country field. So this edit is consistent with other related pages. Also the lough is surrounded by towns and villages using the Settlements template that use Northern Ireland in the country field.. It is typical convention to use Northern Ireland in this field using this template.46.7.113.111 (talk) 21:38, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Marked socks. IRWolfie- (talk) 18:30, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Largest in where?

I've rewritten the header to say 'largest in UK and Ireland', as it's extraneous to list NI, island of Ireland, UK and British Isles. These are all greatly overlapping and frankly reek of political correctness. Revert at will. 143.117.16.40 (talk) 15:30, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Wakey-wakey, non-writers!

Looking at this diff, which spans a period of six and half years, it appears that the only content writers are this person and this person (who was also a vandal), with this person adding section headings and listifying prose and this person adding the infobox. These four people are pretty much responsible for every significant change to the article in six and a half years. In the meanwhile, a whole load of you are collectively responsible for almost 500 edits of edit warring and 440KiB of talk page discussion all over one frelling detail.

Not a one of you has written anything about, say, the petrified wood that is one of the things that Lough Neagh is most famous for, and that forms a significant part of its entry in several other encyclopaedias, or the inflows and outflows, or the historical differences in water levels, or the geology (such as the Lough Neagh clays, for starters).

You're here to write an encyclopaedia. You've collectively and individually contributed a sum total of nothing on the topic in six and a half years. Wake up! Get the plenteous sources that exist on this subject, write about all of the missing things, and try not to be such unproductive One Note Charlies.

Uncle G (talk) 13:27, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

You're as responsible for writing this encyclopaedia as anyone else. Maybe if you put some of the effort you spend hectoring other people into improving the page, we might make some progress.FrFintonStack (talk) 20:19, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Depth

Something's clearly gone wrong here: the idea that the Lough is 25km deep is absurd, especially since its known as a particularly shallow lake for its size. I will change to 25m if no one raises any objections within seven days.FrFintonStack (talk) 20:22, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Fixed. When the conversion logic was implemented a couple of days ago it was accidentally changed from meters to kilometers. Should be good now. Canterbury Tail talk 20:45, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Units

Is there a good reason why the units in this article are given imperial-first? The general presumption for UK articles is that metric units will be given as the primary quantities, with a (complex) list of exceptions. The ultimate arbiter, however, is talk-page consensus, so I'd like to ask here if there's some reason why the article currently uses imperial-first (a style which is not generally supposed to be used for non-US articles). Archon 2488 (talk) 18:48, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Just looking through other UK articles, rivers and the like conform to metric, but general articles give distance in miles (x is 5 miles from y), so I cant see a problem (someone might qoute retain). Murry1975 (talk) 19:56, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
I notice that you are an advocate of metric units, and have been changing other articles to metric. I suppose it's just a matter of personal preference, but we do use miles for lengths and widths of lakes, and feet for depth here in the UK. I don't see why we should have metric units pushed onto these articles. The earliest version used miles. Dbfirs 06:39, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Flora

Just started Osborne 20:25, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

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Terence O'Neill's plan to drain the lake

I came across this article(https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/prime-minister-terence-oneills-bizarre-plan-to-drain-lough-neagh-to-create-seventh-county-29723797.html) about former PM Terence O'Neill's plan to drain the lake and create a 7th county in NI. Unfortunately most of the article is subscription only and I can't seem to find any other sources about this... anyone know anymore..?? Sdrawkcab (talk) 18:32, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

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