Talk:List of replaced loanwords in Turkish

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List[edit]

This page was created from the list at Talk:Turkish language. The article referred readers to this list on the talk page, which is inappropriate, so I have relocated it here. JPD (talk) 14:42, 1 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Half the Ottoman words are only in romanized form. I would like to see that changed.--Fox Mccloud 02:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

May I ask why? Why do you think it would be useful or needed to have these in the old script? Atilim Gunes Baydin 02:50, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Because it doesn't look good having it only halfway complete.--Fox Mccloud 21:40, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've been working on that. I've only got halfway through so far, and will continue to provide the script as time permits. Patience, patience, Fox McCloud. —Saposcat 08:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks.--Fox Mccloud 21:40, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Modern spelling[edit]

I suggest retaining the current spelling of words of Arabic or Persian origin. Spellings such as harb and nisbet are outdated. Instead, you might want to add a column, giving the modern spelling of a word, if it is still used. --Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 23:28, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The recent changes by User:Saposcat, such as tadilat into ta'dîlât or ömür into ömr might be useful for linguistic purposes, but these are not the correct spelling of these words in Turkish (i.e. they should be spelled tadilat and ömür, clearly specified by the official spelling guide by TDK, as both words are still used in Turkish with their new counterparts). I hope Saposcat could change these back into their proper spelling, and add a new column if these arabesque renderings are absolutely needed, but I don't see why they should be, actually. I feel the need to stress again that the spellings tenbel, ömr and others recently changed are wrong spellings of Turkish words written using the Turkish alphabet (I think it is already clear that the alphabet used is the Turkish alphabet, by the use of ö and ü). Regards, Atilim Gunes Baydin 00:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree as well. The only reason I haven't added that extra column yet has been because of time constraints, but when I have the time and inclination, I'll split the Latin-alphabet spellings into something like "Transliteration" (for things like "tenbel" and "ömr") and "Modern Turkish Spelling" ("tembel" and "ömür"). The main reason I wanted to keep the strictly transliterated version is because that is the way one (usually) sees the words written out in serious academic-type works that deal with Ottoman texts. Be patient and bear with me on the issue (or, alternatively, just be bold and make changes yourself). Cheers. —Saposcat 04:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I don't like that "be bold" motto applied to every single situation, I just wanted to hear what you would say first. But I do not want to see wrong spelled Turkish words published on the web on an "encyclopedia" and I'll now try to add a new column for the proper Turkish spelling, and you could add the old script versions and their transliterations to the first column, if that's OK with you. Since about half of the list lacks the old script and its transliteration (in the way you're proposing), this would mean that the entries in the first and second columns will be identical for these, at the moment. Regards, Atilim Gunes Baydin 14:21, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Words of Arabic/Persian vs. Western origin[edit]

This page is getting better, I think it's very useful to have a list like this.

I believe that, in line with the article title, the stress should not be as much on the Ottoman Turkish (i.e., originally Arabic and/or Persian) words, but on Öztürkçe, because an attempt was made to purify the Turkish language not only of Arabic/Persian words, but sometimes of French words as well. It should be noted, however, that sometimes one foreign word was replaced with another.

Wouldn't it be nice to have an extra column for including the original language? I am not too fond of the way that is indicated right now, with the asterisks. --Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 16:56, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Words of Greek origin[edit]

According to the article, there are only two words of Greek origin. The words 'astronomy', 'filologi', 'histoloji', 'karakter' are French according to the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.55.108.176 (talk) 11:41, 7 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Kolay vs. basit[edit]

I don't think kolay should be considered an Öztürkçe alternative for basit, the first meaning "easy", the latter "simple". Though related, they're not synonymous. --Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 14:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, the dominant meaning of kolay is "easy", while basit can mean both "easy" and "simple". In that sense, kolay is the alternative of basit for the meaning "easy". Atilim Gunes Baydin 16:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sağolun. Kolay gelsin! :-) --Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 10:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi there, you shouldn't mix up these two words, as said above, the dominant meaning of kolay is "easy", while basit can also mean primitive, which is the main usage in daily turkish language. DatenPunk 09:59, 6 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Transcription of Arabic/Persian alphabet[edit]

I have modified a few transcriptions, like ﻉ and غ. Because not everyone knows the Arabic/Persian alphabet, and we have a separate column for the current spelling anyway, I think it would be useful to provide a full transcription, distinguishing between ﺕ t and ﻁ ṭ, between hamza and and ﻉ, etc.

I wonder how we should deal with the various [z] sounds. And should long vowels be indicated with a macron or a circumflex? Perhaps a Persian transcription system could be followed, since most consonants sound more or less the same in both languages. --Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 15:01, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As for transcription, overall I myself lean towards the ALA-LC's standards, which can be found here in downloadable PDF format. Actually, there is a discussion underway at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Arabic) about the transcription standard(s) to use across Wikipedia for Ottoman Turkish; feel free to make your opinion known there as well if you like. —Saposcat 05:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your reply. How about moving that discussion to a different area? I don't think that it should be held on a page that deals with Arabic. Both because of its different pronunciation and its cultural importance, I believe Ottoman Turkish deserves a distinct treatment. It makes no sense, in my opinion, to transliterate a word like مذهب as maḏhab or madhhab when it is pronounced as mezhep in Turkish. However, I would appreciate a more detailed transcription method than what is currently used in Turkey.
Like I said, it might be convenient to look into the Persian language while dealing with this issue, for most loanwords from Arabic entered the Turkish language through Persian, having been modified to the Persian way of pronunciation. -Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 09:56, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It might be useful to keep the voiced consonants in the "Modern spelling of the Ottoman Turkish word": eg mehtâb & mechûl. After all, you give the modern Turkish spelling in the next column, so there's no point in giving this spelling twice! --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 11:14, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Inclusion of Persian/Arabic Script[edit]

Thank you for this page. I am doing research into shared vocabulary between Turkish and Persian and it's important for me to see the Arabic (Persian) spelling of the items because I sometimes don't recognize the words from their Turkish pronunciation. For example, I would have never equated "akit" with the Persian 'ǣaqd.

Also, to give you an example of older and younger generations, I learned Turkish from my parents (born 1908 and 1923) in the US. I then learned Persian in my 20's and this helped me expand the vocabulary of both. My husband (who is younger than me) recently moved here from Turkey, and he has an appalling lack of understanding of the so-called "Ottoman" vocabulary I use. I think his Turkish vocabulary looks so lifeless compared to mine, even though I'm speaking immigrant Turkish.

128.8.41.219 21:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)Ilhan Cagri, University of Maryland[reply]

Correcting Ottoman script[edit]

I've made about 20 corrections to the Ottoman script: you can check them out in the History. There were a few shins for se, for example, in Kanun-i sani, etc. In the Ottoman transcription the distinction between 'ayn and hamza hasn't always been preserved: I changed a few, such as sür'at, but there are still some there, I think (teadül & teamül, for example). --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 11:06, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Something funny was also happening with non-joining ya in a few words (you had to look very carefully to spot this). I've corrected hafriyyat, mersiye & sayyare—but there might be others. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 11:59, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've now completed correcting the Ottoman script, & also the Ottoman Turkish words given only in transcription. The only remaining decision is whether to mark the different g, k, t, h, s and z letters with diacritics! I see that in some cases they are marked (for example in the very first word, ˤaḍale); but in most cases they aren't. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 21:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Basis for selection[edit]

I don't think you've made it clear that this list is merely a selection, rather than a comprehensive list. It certainly covers a wide range of words, but it's not clear to me how they were selected. That may not matter too much, as long as the reader knows that this is only a fraction of the total.

The "two words" meyil are really the same word: the meaning "tendency" is simply a metaphorical usage (like "inclination" in English). --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 11:23, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Many common words are missing (eg mekteb/okul, millet/ulus), while some of the included words are highly specialized (tekeffül). Why is this? --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 21:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are many words which were already in use by turkish/turkic people, while ottoman was spoken. Ayrılık is such an example. Wouldnt it be better to simplify the list according to creation of new words rather than alienating original words which continued to live among commons? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.103.208.173 (talk) 18:02, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ecel[edit]

As the native speakers here—but not necessarily the casual reader—will know, ecel is not an exact equivalent of ölüm ("death"). I've changed the translation to "(predestined time of) death", which I think captures the meaning more precisely. I found these two rather nice examples online:

Eceliyle ölen, akıllarda kalacak kadar azdı. - B. Yıldız ("Those who lived to a ripe old age [died of natural causes?] were few enough to be retained in the memory": not a very succinct translation, I know!)
Vaktinize hazır olun / Ecel vardır gelir bir gün - Yunus Emre

--NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 10:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mekruh[edit]

The religious meaning of Mekruh is not "Forbidden", rather the meaning is "disliked", because the arab root K-R-H means "hate, dislike" as opposide to "H-R-M" which means "forbidden, holy". This is the linguistic difference between Makrooh (derived from K-R-H) and Haram (derived from H-R-M). In islamic religious context, there exists two kinds of Makrooh: Makrooh Tanzihan and Makrooh Tahriman, the former being less disliked than the latter. I will replace "Forbidden" with "Disliked". You are free to find an english word better fitting the term. 87.51.211.84 19:55, 2 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

overhaul[edit]

What I had written before in the history is there if anyone wants an explanation for my rather extensive changes. I have just moved some stuff around and gotten the process started. Now it's quite late in East Asia and I will resume work tomorrow. If anyone wants to help in the meantime, here's my to-do list:

  • Separate the Persian/Arabic list into a Persian list and an Arabic list (No matter what the US government says, they're not the same)
  • Add original spellings for all non-English words.
  • Remove words where the "replacement" does not actually share the meaning of the original.
  • Add more information about usage of TDK words versus Ottoman words. (Both in terms of frequency and context)
  • In fact, if possible I'd like each language to be subdivided into three sections: Words where the Ottoman word is the main remaining word in spoken Turkish, words where the TDK word is the main remaining word in spoken Turkish, and words where they more or less co-exist.
  • Add more words from languages other than French, Arabic and Persian.

סרסלי, קײק פּלז (talk) 11:10, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hey,

I like your organisation of the website. I have been adding more words in the last one month, and I will keep adding more. Your to-do list is ambitious, but it is great! That's how this article will meet the standards of an encyclopedia. I will do my best to help you. --Nonewmail (talk) 21:31, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Having asked a Turk born in the republic in the early '80s, not one of the Persian words marked has actually fallen out of usage. My current to-do list:
ARABIC
  • Add the Arabic spellings for the Arabic words
  • Remove superfluous words (some of the words I found in the list were identified by TDK as native Turkic words, like "sadece")
  • Should we have the IPA for the original pronunciation, or some other system of romanisation? Either way, delete any other transliteration of the Arabic characters.
PERSIAN
  • Find the Ottoman spelling of Yekpare. (I couldn't find a comparable word in my Persian dictionary)
  • Do we really need a transliteration for these? If so, y'know, by all means, but we have to decide what system to use. (Like we do with Arabic)
FRENCH
  • Need to go through and add the original French spellings of all the words.
OTHER LANGUAGES
  • See if we can find enough English, Greek, and German words to warrant their own section. If not, no big deal.
  • Original spellings for non-English words would be just fantastic too.
  • There must be more non-European languages which contributed to the rich vocabularies of Ottoman and modern Turkish, respectively. TDK does indeed list "çay" as being from "Çince", but it sadly does not seem to be one of the words they tried to purge from the tongues of the youth. (Sad because it means I don't have an immediate excuse to put Chinese characters--with pinyin of course--in this article.)
THE COUP DE GRÂCE
  • When all is said and done, it'd be pretty fresh if we could translate this article into Turkish.
סרסלי, קײק פּלז (talk) 11:10, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hey,

Regarding your to-do list for Persian, you wrote that there must be more Persian words in modern Turkish than this. That's absolutely true; there are over 1,500 Persian words in Turkish. However, for many of the Persian words (unlike Arabic words), there is no Turkish equivalant. One reason TDK did not put as much effort into replacing Persian words as it did for Arabic words is simply because the Persian words never sounded as foreign as Arabic words. For an average Turkish speaker (who is not into languages), an Arabic word can still sound foreign; however, that's not the case for Persian.

Unless you want to have a section in this article like "list of Persian words in Turkish", there will not be much more to add to the section of replaced Persian words.

Great work! --Nonewmail (talk) 17:33, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Great stuff! I didn't know that, although I suspected, as I too find many of the Arabic words awkward sounding in Turkish, whereas the Persian loans sound very beautiful and appropriate most of the time. I have particularly taken a liking to "buse", and incorporated it into my everyday Turkish, much to the amusement of others. I'm going to quote some of what you wrote IN the Persian section, is that cool?

סרסלי, קײק פּלז (talk) 06:43, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine! This will give the reader a better perspective. --Nonewmail (talk) 15:17, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As a heads-up, my absence has been largely the result of fighting over my username being too Jewish and/or edgy (which will, inşallah, be changed soon to "yahudidevriyesi", still fairly Jewish) Anyway, I tried an edit about Gagauzia and realised I was still capable of editing, so I'm back to work. Today I'm gonna do the French spelling. Does anyone know any resources for looking up these words? The TDK is pretty good of course, since they're the ones who control the replacing, but surely they have a list of the replacements themselves somewhere? That is to say, TDK's replacements must be communicated to the society through some channels, don't the schools receive lists of "unacceptable" words from TDK or something like that?
סרסלי, קײק פּלז (talk) 05:51, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When the language reform started in the 30's under Atatürk, they did a great job in communicating with other departments, ministries and media, and having them employ the new words. However, as the time went on, this became more loose. Currently, TDK still works on forming new Turkish words; however, they are not very effective in spreading the usage of the words anymore. It is more often the case that a new word fails to incorporate into daily language, although some few words still find their way in public (like "yerleşke" meaning "campus"). Probably some sort of loose connection still plays role in this process, of which I am not aware.

TDK does have its website. However, they do not have a special page listing new words (at least I have not seen such a page with that list). Instead, they have lists of Arabic, French and Persian (and other languages) loanwords without their equivalents (just the words themselves). That's why the only way to have "access" to the new words is by looking for them.

There are many unofficial websites, however, that provide the lists of the new words together with their old counterparts. I guess they could be employed to some extent with caution. --Nonewmail (talk) 20:34, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reaction of other Muslims regarding Turkish experiment in change of language script[edit]

There are several Muslims today in the World who are quite nostalgic about Ottoman empire. Muslims in the sub-continant take a pride how Persian and Arabic had enormously enriched their languages. Ataturk did not helped Turkish lexicon but impowerished it.


"...which were replaced with their Turkish counterparts"[edit]

"...which were replaced with their Turkish counterparts" - that text is such an outrageous distortion of the truth that this whole article deserves a POV tag. Most of the "Turkish counterpart" words were newly-coined words, often with laughable reasoning behind the coining, and they were not "Turkish" words in any real sense. The phrase "Turkish counterparts" implies a pre-existing Turkish word that was just little-used when compared to the loanword. BTW, I've read a claim that as a result of the reforms, the vocabulary used in Turkey shrank from 83,400 words to 26,500 words. A "slaughter of words" was how it was described. I wonder if Orwell's "Newspeak" was in some way inspired by "New Turkish"? Meowy 17:56, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A paragraph about the fact that modern Turkish became unintelligible with "real" Turkish after this "reform".[edit]

"Modern" Turkish speakers can not understant national anthem or Ataturk's famous message to youth.

Whereas English(which has more French words than English ones)speakers could understand English of the 17 th century,Arabs can understand Arabic of the 4-5 th century and Persians can understand Persian of the 9-10 th century.

A part of previously Turkish-thought words are not Turkish like ash,pasha,bayram,aksham.

Also some of grammatical features and conjugation endings are iranian not altaic.

Humanbyrace (talk) 17:28, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

your comment bears no relation to the article topic. If you want to comment on the development of Turkish, kindly begin by citing relevant literature. --dab (𒁳) 15:59, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Article Rename[edit]

I suggest the article be renamed "Replaced Ottoman loanwords in Contemporary Turkish"; the title is more accurate- the article topic is not the merely the list, but the history of word replacement in modern Turkey. Mavigogun (talk) 05:28, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Possible omission.[edit]

I apologise if I have put this in the wrong place, but I have not yet really learned my way around the system. I am a Turkophile Englishman with reasonable knowledge of the language & was just browsing when I saw the new words given for "lazy". I had thought that "tembel" was the best modern usage, and was surprised not to find it in your list. Am I wrong? In any event, many congrats on the project as a whole; it is invaluable for non-native speakers. 86.185.103.108 (talk) 14:30, 4 June 2011 (UTC) Ps No need to answer above. Have just noticed that "tembel" appears in the list of loans from Persian, so I was doubly wrong! However, you might like to note that in the Persian list the modern word is given as "haylaz", whereas in the Arabic list it is "uyuşuk" or mıymıntı". If the 3 words are equally correct, I suggest putting all of them in both places. Above remark about project as a whole still relevant![reply]

vazgeçmek - caymak**[edit]

Hello everybody. I, as a native Turkish speaker, must conquer the Turkish word caymak's classification as unusual. As a matter of fact, many of the words in this classification are new to me and to fellow Turkey-Turks, but caymak is a very frequent, known word. I have no literature which could provide any proof, wherefore I am asking for it to be removed here and am not removing it on my own. Thank you! Konanen (talk) 22:05, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

çabuk - ivedi**[edit]

Hello. The origin of çabuk is not Persian. It's Turkish origined. Prof. Dr. Tuncay Gülensoy (Turkologist) says in their ethymological dictionary, ça- (hit fast) > çap- (running, hitting fast your feet on ground) > çapuk (quickly) > çabuk (- with consonant transformation) turkmaned

Endemik/epidemik[edit]

In the French loanwords section, new word for "endemik" is listed as "salgın". However, salgın means "epidemic" (also used in Turkish as "epidemik") whereas endemik does not have a new equivalent. I believe epidemik was meant instead of endemik. Use of salgın is pretty widespread, epidemik is usually used in academical/medical context. [1] Ycanerol (talk) 12:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://tdk.org.tr/index.php?option=com_gts&arama=gts

Pezevenk = procurer?[edit]

Admittedly Turkish is not my native language, but I have never, ever heard this word used outside of the context of 'pimp'. Surely pimp makes more sense as the given English translation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.108.128.73 (talk) 21:46, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Greek loanwords in Turkish[edit]

During the Ottoman era, the modern Greek language had essentially become useless and that language had hardly any relevance to Turks. Most of the loanwords in Turkish which have Ancient Greek origins were not borrowed directly from the Greek—and certainly did not come from Turks studying Ancient Greek literature or the Bible—but were borrowed from other languages such as Arabic, and, in modern times, French and English.

To put Greek loanwords in the same category as Arabic and Persian is misleading. --User99998 (talk) 22:18, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Source to the piechart[edit]

Hello, I would like a source to the piechart at the start if possible. Thanks in advance Sheppik (talk) 17:06, 16 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Overlapping articles[edit]

We now have Replacement of loanwords in Turkish, Turkish language reform and Öztürkçe, which all more or less cover the same general subject. I propose that we merge these three into one article, of which the title Turkish language reform is the most all-encompassing and preferable. Any thoughts? Glennznl (talk) 21:07, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Kwamikagami: Do you have any view on this? --Glennznl (talk) 09:23, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Öztürkçe" is more a Wiktionary entry than a WP article, so I'd merge that. But I think it may be worthwhile to keep this list of replaced Perso-Arabic loanwords separate from the main article, and only show a few illustrative examples there. I'd move this article to a "List of" name, though, so its purpose is clear. Maybe move some material from the first couple paras to the main article as well, and only keep enough of an intro to orientate the reader. — kwami (talk) 02:20, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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