Talk:List of oldest living state leaders/Archive 7

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Archive 1 ← Archive 5 Archive 6 Archive 7 Archive 8

Yemen

I found a prime minister called Ahmad al-Sayari from Yemen who was possibly born somewhere someday in 1924 according to the List of heads of government of Yemen article, but I removed it because there was no reliable source claiming this guy was 99 years old, I don’t think he’s still living , but he might be.

I’d put him in the ‘’unclear status/DoB article as he was prime minister of the Mutawakkilite Kingdom of Yemen in 1962-1962. In exile. So, dear community, does this person count.

He may in fact be born in early Jan or Feb 1924 and be older than Khamtai Siphandone. 202.84.42.187 (talk) 12:58, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Oddly, World Statesmen has no birth year for him. And I'm not sure if a government in exile would count. @StjepanHR what do you think of in exile governments? TheCorriynial (talk) 13:46, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
It looks like 'government in exile' doesn't fully reflect the situation. Mutawakkilite Kingdom of Yemen says at the end of the lead paragraph that the royal government 'maintained control over portions of Yemen until its final defeat in the North Yemen Civil War'. The Kingdom had international recognition at the time of the coup on 26 September 1962, al-Sayari was in post 5 October-17 October 1962. The United States was apparently 'one of the first' to recognise the Yemen Arab Republic, on 19 December 1962. Department (I chose the US because it was the first I found by a Google search). I would contend that this is a fairly straitforward case for the 'Unclear Status' table. Put another way, al-Sayari as the head of government of a recognised state that was shortly to be widely derecognised, is not that different from Josip Manolić, head of an unrecognised government that was shortly to be widely recognised. Manolić is included, so logically al-Sayari can be. I'd take a different view of the only other living former PM of the Kingdom, Abdur Rahman ibn Yahya (born 1937, in office 1967-1969) because by that time it seems all but Saudi Arabia had withdrawn recognition.
Of course, the above is largely moot unless we can find a source for al-Sayari being alive (and one for his approximate birth year at least). 217.155.59.206 (talk) 14:33, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
The problem is, if he can be on the list, there is no source, as @TheCorriynial said, world statesmen does not have a birthday for him, it was just some stupid estimation put up by another user. 202.84.42.187 (talk) 09:04, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
I agree that the key thing is to find a source, as I said at the end of my response. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 12:58, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
YES.
There used to be a guy called O.P. Rodriguez on this list, born somewhere in 1934 (age 88/89), he got removed because there was no source. 202.84.42.187 (talk) 12:46, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
Sorry, I havent seen the question until now. My answer would be quite similar to what 202.84.42.187 wrote. IF he is still alive, I think he is at least a candidate for the "unclear status" section. StjepanHR (talk) 19:05, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Governments-in-exile

How should they be handled? This issue is complicated by retroactive nationalism, e.g. the Polish government-in-exile, widely unrecognised after 1945, is retrospectively considered the "real" government of Poland for that period by the modern Third Polish Republic. AUSPOLLIE (talk) 09:23, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

I think the only way to do it is to look at the specifics on a case-by-case basis and weigh them against the existing practice of this article. This is what I tried to do above in relation to the Yemen; I found that 'exile' wasn't really accurate for the period in question (1962), rather government was domestically contested between two entities (I subsequently found that the King didn't actually go into exile until March 1969, which is a crucial point). Dates when other states extended/withdrew/changed recognition are also useful. The key thing is to explain the basis on which to include any particular person, giving evidence and/or reasoning.
I think the Polish case you cite is unique in being able to sustain itself over such a long period, with a succession of claimed heads of state/heads of government who were able to be recognised retroactively by the post-Communist state. In contrast, the contiuity of the Baltic States seems to have been maintained by diplomats, rather than holders of state offices. So while Edward Szczepanik (Poland) could have been included were he still living, Anatols Dinbergs (Latvia) probably couldn't have been even if alive (this is just to illustrate the point; both are deceased) 217.155.59.206 (talk) 12:58, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
pending on the age they died. Edward Szczepanik died at 90, so if he were living in a multiverse where he was born in 1933 instead of 1915 he would be included. But in 2004, when he was 89, im pretty sure it will be the same situation. 202.84.42.187 (talk) 12:53, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
My position would be to include only those leaders who had some real control over their territory during their time "in exile", such as the Taliban in Afghanistan during 2001-2021 or the above-described situation in Yemen. StjepanHR (talk) 19:08, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Unproven possibilities and future additions

There is a list of all leaders for which there is not a death date on Rulers.org (at least before one month), and I sorted them in few categories (U stands for "unproven", A for "alive"):

Name State Position Birth note
Possibly dead, but potential additions if a recent source can be found
Emmanuel Bruny Haiti Executive Government Council (1957) 1915
Feliciano Avelar El Salvador Member of the Civic-Military Directory (1961-1962) 1919
Avtar Singh Sikkim Political Officer (1964-1966) 18 October 1921 Unlikely position qualifies; possibly died in 2015 [1] common name/surname combination though
Ricardo Falla Cáceres El Salvador Junta of Government (1960-1961) 1921 Spanish wiki [2] and some other sources [3] [4] claim 1929-1990
Jaime Florentino Mendieta Vargas Bolivia Junta of Commanders of the Armed Forces (1971) 1922 Possibly 1926-2000?
Marino Vagnetti San Marino Captain Regent (1971-1972, 1989) 1924
Ahmad al-Sayari Yemen (Kingdom) Prime Minister (1962) 1924 Unclear status/DoB list
No citation, see discussion below
Ri Kun-mo DPR Korea Premier (1986-1988) 1926 Likely deceased, see discussion below
Emmanuel Bodjollé Togo Chairman of the Insurrection Committee (1963) 1928 Needs a better citation
Michel Lévêque Monaco Minister of State (1997-2000) 19 July 1933 Needs a more recent citation
Luis Leoro Franco [es] Ecuador Member of Supreme Government Council (1976-1979) 11 January 1934 1925?
No citation
Unclear status list
Martin M'Bia Congo (People's Republic of the)
[a.k.a. Congo-Brazzaville]		 Member of the Military Committee (1977) 1934 Unclear status/DoB list
No citation
Óscar Pammo Rodríguez [es] Bolivia Junta member (1981) 1934 Unclear status/DoB list
Needs a more recent citation (2006: [5])
"None of the Soviet Republic Party Secretaries in this table were in power when their republics were recognized as independent states by other United Nations member states, or by the Commission of the European Economic Community, which should be the criterion for their inclusion in the main article table. Vaino Väljas is a special case, as he was still Party Chairman on August 20, 1991 (the day Estonia restored its independence); however, the Popular Front of Estonia had won the ESSR's republic elections on March 18, 1990, and were directing the government in Tallinn, not the republic's Communist Party." – Jwkozak91 (talk) 05:57, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

1. Good possibility of being alive (1926-1929, 1930 and later to be done): (U=3, A=0)

  • Ambrose Patrick Genda, Sierra Leone, head of government, 1927, somebody with the same name died in London in 2001 (and in "Reinventing the Colonial State: Constitutionalism, One-party Rule, and Civil" (p. 138), it is claimed that he had lived in London) and German wiki claimed he died in 2015
Asked about him on German Wiki, he died in 2002, the user told me that the source is "The Paradoxes of History and Memory in Post-Colonial Sierra Leone". I still won't cross him, as I can't preview the book, but I am 99% sure he is not alive anymore StjepanHR (talk) 15:11, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
I agree he's very likely deceased, though I notice that the page reference given in the German article (p679) can't be right because the publisher only lists the book as having 332 pages! Curiously, Genda doesn't appear on List of heads of state of Sierra Leone at all - I don't know why, as others in 'office' for as little as a couple of days do appear. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 12:16, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
"Historical Dictionary of Togo" (ed. 2021) refers to him as "retired". Is it enough to put him on the list? StjepanHR (talk) 03:38, 2 November 2021 (UTC)


2. Upcoming (1933) - now on the list above StjepanHR (talk) 22:53, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Albert Ndele is very much alive according to his niece on twitter. We just have to find a source. --160.78.232.4 (talk) 15:22, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Would it be a good idea to reduce the above list by consolidating categories? For example the 'Highly unlikely' and 'Unlikely' groups could probably be merged at this point. An alternative might be to separate out the entries that have been struck through and put those that haven't in their own section? I think either would make it quite a bit clearer which ones have been 'dealt with' and which still need to be. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 20:28, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Frankly, I think we should just put all of them into the table above, without any "subcategories", but I always forget to do so. Those categories are a relic from the initial list from a decade ago, when there were much more leaders with unknown status. P.S. I have removed the dead leaders from the list. I usually leave them for some time, so other can see the reason for removal, but most of them were struck quite some time ago. StjepanHR (talk) 18:14, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
I hope you don't mind, I've gone ahead and put the majority into the table as you suggest, including your remarks and references. I've left out the pre-1916 ones because of the high chance of them being deceased while at the same time extremely hard to prove. I've also kept those where the discussion is a bit longer below rather than trying to squash them into a table217.155.59.206 (talk) 15:27, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
Thank You very much. I have also added Genda and Ri, with the note to see discussion below. StjepanHR (talk) 16:50, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Adding a comment to save it from archiving. StjepanHR (talk) 10:38, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
Is it worth clearing off those now in the lists somewhere? Or who have since been agreed to have died/not likely living? (i.e Ri Kun-mo) TheCorriynial (talk) 20:29, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
I would still like to have some further info about the likes of Ri and Genda before removing them. StjepanHR (talk) 16:31, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
I'd be comfortable removing Bruny, Avelar, Bolte, Singh and Cáceres at this point - each is highly likely deceased, with no apparent progress on finding sources proving or suggesting otherwise for some considerable time; I don't think these cases will get any easier. That would leave the earliest unproven case as Vargas (b. 1922), who could probably be removed as well, though I feel less confident on that because there's not even a possible death date at [6]. I think it's clear Soviet transitional leaders don't qualify (see the comment from another user just beneath the table), so I'd remove Vagris and Väljas too. I agree Ri and Genda should remain for the time being. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 15:28, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
I agree with removal of Bruny, it seems odd that being if he was alive that Bruny is a centenarian, and it always seems like anyone over 100 and in most countries seem to get some kind of news of a birthday, so on.
I'd argue that maybe someone born in 1919 could still alive if proven, but again, centenarian, seems odd not hearing anything on the person. TheCorriynial (talk) 19:56, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments. Regarding Avtar Singh, he doesn't appear on the List of heads of government of the Kingdom of Sikkim, whose title at this period is given as Principal Administrative Officer, but rather on a different List of political officers in the Kingdom of Sikkim. It seems there was some distinction between the PO as representative of India and the PAO as a civil servant/technocrat/administrator. In which case, of the two the PO wouldn't really qualify for inclusion in my view 217.155.59.206 (talk) 14:06, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
On World Statesmen, it seems they may have been kinda of a de jure/de facto (not sure if spelled right) leader, perhaps working with Principal administrative officer at the time. Although, Sikkim was still separate from India at the time, and it should be noted in World Statesmen that Singh is listed under Indian Political Officers, so maybe Sikkim wasn't totally independent as this list might want, although in 1973 India took over running the area. TheCorriynial (talk) 14:55, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
I am not sure if political officers count, if he were or is still alive according to a reliable source, I'd add him to unclear status/DoB 202.84.42.187 (talk) 12:36, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
I think it is assumed that a person is dead at 110 years old on Wikipedia, so I am removing each leader once he reaches that age. There were (rare) exceptions, such as obscure Cambodian leader Ek Yi Oun, who reached 100 (in his case, 103) years without any reports.
Also, I think the Latvian and Estonian leaders should be removed, as they wouldn't even qualify for "unclear status" list, IMHO. StjepanHR (talk) 21:45, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
Adding this again, as it was archived. StjepanHR (talk) 21:38, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
This list is now so redundant it is bordering on fanfluff. The vast majority are either marginal as state leaders (IMO they are not), have reasonable evidence to suggest they are dead, live in countries with very low life-expectancy (number of reliably reported Haitian men to reach 107=0) or are otherwise so minor they don't even have a wiki article. The only possible exceptions would be the San Marino regents. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 23:31, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
At the very least a new thread should be started without those already added to the page, those noted as probably dead above and those that don't qualify (Sikkim, Latvia, Estonia). DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 23:35, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
Why I don't neccessarily disagree with Your opinion on some of the leaders (for example, I would like to remove the two Baltic leaders and would probably open a new section on them in a few days), we had a lot of obscure (or presumably dead) leaders entering the list:
  • Ek Yi Oun, mentioned before
  • Babiker Awadalla was presumed dead for some time as he was born in Sudan, which has extremely low life expectancy, and as he resigned for health reasons in 1970. However, he was living outside of his own country and lived long enough to reach the top spot on this list.
  • Telmo Vargas was an extremely obscure Ecuadorian military lead-for-a-day who lived to the age of 100 and reached the top of the list
  • we already had several North Korean leaders high on this list. If I am not mistaken, at least one of them was reported as dead some time before he actually died.
  • Zakaria Mohieddin, while not reaching a very high rank (he died at 94), was reported dead by a single source that mistranslated an eulogy he wrote for his friend
  • some junta members/military heads of state, such as Fernando Agüero or Pedro Bartolomé Benoit were missing from the original list despite being alive at that time
  • Tun Tin, an obscure Burmese leader, was long presumed dead and not listed here
I am sure there are more of these. So, I prefer to keep them listed just in case. Personally, I think only Bodjolle, Leveque, Rodriguez and Ture are reasonably likely to be alive. StjepanHR (talk) 01:56, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
  • As an aside, but might be worth mentioning: as it sits right now by the GRG, the possibly still stands for Bruny and Avelar, as the current oldest man was born in 1909. Thats six years off for Bruny, and a decade for Avelar. But at this point, if nothing has been found for the two, maybe they should be removed. TheCorriynial (talk) 14:17, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Feliciano Avelar

Is there any way to check if this is "our" Dr. Feliciano Avelar? [7] Name and surname are not exactly unique, but he is approximately of the same age as the junta member in question. StjepanHR (talk) 04:46, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Feliciano Avelar

Is there any way to check if this is "our" Dr. Feliciano Avelar? [8] Name and surname are not exactly unique, but he is approximately of the same age as the junta member in question. StjepanHR (talk) 04:46, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Jānis Vagris

I propose his removal from the unproven possibilities list for the following reason:

  • he was Chairman of the Presidium from 22 June 1985 until 6 October 1988, while Latvia was still part of the Soviet Union
  • he was Communist First Secretary from 4 October 1988 until 7 April 1990. Latvian declaration On the Restoration of Independence of the Republic of Latvia took place in May 1990 and independence was fully achieved a year after that
  • as he held no positions even during the earliest declaration, I don't think he qualifies even for the "unclear status" list

Any other opinions? StjepanHR (talk) 04:28, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Agree to removal. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 04:36, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
Agreed 217.155.59.206 (talk) 13:14, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Vaino Väljas

I propose his removal for the following reasons:

  • he was the First secretary from 16 Jun 1988 until 25 March 1990 and the chairman chairman of the party from March/April 1990 to August 1991 (probably until the 20 August 1991, the day when Estonia separated from the Soviet Union)
  • the leading role of the party was abolished in early 1990, before independence, meaning he held no formal position as a leader from that time onwards.

StjepanHR (talk) 04:37, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Agree to removal. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 05:12, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
Agreed 217.155.59.206 (talk) 13:14, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Section add

I know : Soviet leaders don’t count. But we can have a section called ==Heads of state who ruled independent countries before their independence== with their own addendum and everything

List:

‘*MR.’Arnold Rüütel,Estonia (born 10 May 1928)- In list

JANIS VAGRIS- discussed (17 October 1930) VAINO VALJAS- discussed (March 1931)

That’s all, don’t think will qualify but this can get created: List of oldest living past-independence state leaders of countries that are now independent or list of List of Soviet politic veterans, which will include them. 202.84.42.187 (talk) 13:00, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Excessively trivial. Not needed/useful. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 21:12, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Severi(a)no Tura

Is it possible that this is the former captain-regent? [9] Plus, there is this video: [10] . Sadly, I don't understand Italian well enough to conculde anything fron the interview. His name is also written as "Severino" here: [11] StjepanHR (talk) 07:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC) Aditionally, there are 100 people with the surname Tura in San Marino: [12] and both Severino and Severiano are quite uncommon names (less than 13 men in the whole country): [13]

I took a look at additional name statistics. SeveriAno seems to be a Spanish name, with only SEVEN people in whole Italy (and none in San Marino): [14] That means the regent's name is almost 100% Severino and not SeveriAno. Additionally, there are only NINE people with the name Severino in San Marino: [15]. I have calculated a probablity of there being a person named Severino Tura to be less than 3%. If we take into account age, there is well over 99% chance that this is our person. EDIT: Another source that he is Severino: [16] StjepanHR (talk) 14:55, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
Here are also some photos confirming his age to be 12-14 years in 1948: [17]. StjepanHR (talk) and here he confirms to be 18 in 1952: [18] 15:09, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
Considering all this - uncommon name and same birthyear, I propose his addition. Any other opinions? StjepanHR (talk) 15:13, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Oscar Pammo Rodriguez

While not a valid update, he was alive in October 1999, as he appeared on a court: [19] and his phone number is listed online: [20]. I think this indicates there is a good possibility of him being alive and maybe some more digging could be useful (by someone fluent in Spanish?). EDIT: I managed to miss a court case from January 2006: [21], although it is still seven years too old. StjepanHR (talk) 01:36, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

On a side note, I tried to look about the frequency of (sur)name Pammo and couldn't find anything. Is that his name, surname or some kind of a nickname? All but one mention of that name on the Wikipedia refers to him and one is a nickname from some film.

Ricardo Falla Cáceres

Is EfeméridesSV considered to be a good enough source? They claim that the leader in question died in 1990: [22] . Plus, there is this: [23] StjepanHR (talk) 08:35, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

I have no idea about their reliability, but I've copied them into the unproven possibilities table, so everything's in one place. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 13:00, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

What is a "State Leader"

Why aren't Queen Elizabeth II or any of the other oldest reigning monarchs listed ? Queen Elizabeth was head of state and would come in at #11 in the table. Marlarkey (talk) 22:00, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

The article is called the "List of oldest living state leaders". Elizabeth II is no longer alive. GoodDay (talk) 22:10, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Officially, a "state" in this case is country that is run by its own government or in lieu by a representative. TheCorriynial (talk) 22:38, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Ali Haroun

Ali Haroun (born 8 February 1927) was a member of the High Council of State which ruled Algeria from 1992-1994. Although the successive chairmen of that body appear alone in the List of heads of state of Algeria, the article on the Council describes it as a collective presidency. Thus it seems he could be included alongside members of juntas in the unlcear status list, if we can find confirmation of him being alive. I'm inclined to add him to the unproven possibilities table above. The only other member of the Council apparently alive, Major General Khaled Nezzar is not yet old enough for inclusion, but seems to have a higher profile, so when the time comes he may be easier to find a source for. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 13:00, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

I think I found this person, having received a Japanese honor - https://www.aps.dz/en/algeria/43205-ali-haroun-decorated-with-japan-emperor-s-order-of-the-sacred-treasure.
The photo provided in the article of the person seems to looks very close to the one in the wiki article.
Although I noticed in archives that he may have been removed due the nature of collective presidencies.

TheCorriynial (talk) 14:29, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Well done on an excellent find! 217.155.59.206 (talk) 10:15, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
Ali Haroun was already listed some years ago, and later removed as the High State Council had a clear leader, first Boudiaf, then Ali Kafi. I think Haroun does not belong here. --82.52.59.252 (talk) 17:24, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
IMHO, the only thing that could justify Haroun's inclusion is the fact that the council was formed on 14 January and Mohamed Boudiaf was named as the leader on 16 January, what indicates that the council was in the category "collective presidencies without a clear leader" for those two days. If sources show up indicating that Mr. Boudiaf was the leader from 14 January, Mr. Haroun should be removed from my list, if you ask me. StjepanHR (talk) 22:42, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Max Bolte

According to the page 8 of Jet magazine from 10 November 1960, Mr. Bolte was living in exile in New York. A man with the same name died in New Jersey in 1989: [24]. It seems that there are about 2500 people with the surname Bolte in the USA nowadays and that there are 100 000 men named Max in the USA (approximately 1 in 3000 people), meaning there is good possiblity that this is "our" Max Bolte. Can anybody check MyHeritage for more details? StjepanHR (talk) 00:56, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

I think we can scratch him off the list. World Statesmen says Max Bolte died before 2000, so that 1989 death date could be correct. Also, much earlier attempts seems to have came to the same conclusion using World Statesmen. TheCorriynial (talk) 18:41, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
Sorry, I haven't seen Your reply until now. If anyone else agrees, I will cross him. StjepanHR (talk) 22:43, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
Yep. No reason to keep him on the list any longer. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 23:06, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
Will remove him. Further proof that I have missed is that the part of New Jersey he lived in was West New York. StjepanHR (talk) 23:40, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Martin M'Bia (Mbia)

According to this, he is dead: [25]

I would like to hear more opinion on reliability of the source, as it lists Pascal Bima as living (died in 2003 according to [26]), as well as Jean-Michel Ebaka (died 2019). Is it possibly the article confused Bima and Mbia?

Additional source: [27] . Comment by Jules Oncle. And this: [28]

Do you think this is enough to cross him off the list? StjepanHR (talk) 01:44, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

I'd want someone to make sure it does all match up, but if it does, I cant see any reason why he should remain on the list. TheCorriynial (talk) 18:12, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
On balance of the above I think he's likely dead (at least insofar as we can't specifically prove he isn't), but even if not, I think he can be removed from consideration following a previous discussion I initiated (posting as 217.155.59.206) as to whether he qualified anyway. 2A02:8012:227B:0:B151:3C0E:CF41:30EE (talk) 10:47, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
Looking through the archives, it seems rather early on most people wrote him off as no longer being alive, to as person above said, does not fit requirements. TheCorriynial (talk) 20:55, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Bill Hayden and Edward Lawrence

This source lists Bill as alive in 2022, if someone wishes to update him: https://www2.cbn.com/news/news/85-year-old-atheist-bill-hayden-explains-why-he-converted-christianity TheCorriynial (talk) 00:48, 14 April 2023 (UTC) Edward is listed as attending an event here in 2022: https://www.sknvibes.com/news/newsdetails.cfm/120395 Im not currently able to edit, but for someone wanting to update the list, here you are.

Ri Kun-mo

Its been over twenty years since he was last seemed he was still around. And his article mentioned he wasn't in great shape at the time he was replaced, And with the fact NK could have been expected to have announced his death, might imply there was some kind of falling out. Its probably safe to assume he probably should be removed, as no evidence has been found. TheCorriynial (talk) 04:24, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Plus, as above under the Unclear leaders needing sources, a source seems to site 2001 as his death year, and if memory serves, World Statesmen uses that year as well. TheCorriynial (talk) 04:27, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
While I am (as is obvious from my latest activity) all for reducing the number of people on the list, I have also seen 2012, as the year of his death, which would invalidate the book in question. If any additional source is found, I am fine with him being removed, but that 2012 thing is bothering me a bit for now. StjepanHR (talk) 17:47, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
Random search found a "Ri Kun-mo" on a Hairstyle web site, from Feb 2023. While I doubt its the leader (Although, the aging looks possible, the site claims the "97 year old North Korean primer"), its makes me wonder if there's another person with the same name that's confusing the search... And how he's been radio silent for over a decade, if 2012 was his last "known" date. Here's the random search hit: [29]

TheCorriynial (talk) 00:09, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

It would be ironic though if a hairstyle website, if the source is "decent", is the only thing that could keep his claim "alive" in the West and outside of NK. TheCorriynial (talk) 00:17, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
That looks very much like a satirical site to me (references to 'tabloids' and 'gossip' in relation to North Korea is a dead giveaway). More pertinently, the picture from the hairstyle site that comes up in Google Image search for Ri Kun-mo and appears on the page linked to appears to be the similar-age but otherwise entirely unconnected (!) Roger Corman. It's possible there could be another image on the page that's not displaying in my browser, of course. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 12:15, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
Then my theory was right. I wasn't convinced either, And the fact reverse search of the photo pulled up someone not even related likely seals the source as moot. TheCorriynial (talk) 01:36, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
Facepalm for this last thing. Anyway there is no source at all reporting Ri Kun-mo alive in 2012. It just stated something happened when he was governor of Nort Hamgyong in the early 2000s. Ri has been long dead.--87.18.132.214 (talk) 15:37, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
@87.18.132.214 Do you have a source that confirms Ri Kun-mo's death and or discredits the 2012 "report?" TheCorriynial (talk) 17:11, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

1934 births

I think this concept of a table is a good one.

As of 27 December 2021, there are 3 people left to add to the hidden 5 in the main article table. I could only find these people going through 1934#Births (again, feel free to add others or remove those who are deceased):

Name State Position Birth note
Rudolf Schuster Slovakia President (1999–2004) 4 January 1934 Added to main list 9/7/2022
Jean Chrétien Canada Prime Minister (1993–2003) 11 January 1934 Added to main list 15/7/2022
Édith Cresson France Prime Minister (1991–1992) 27 January 1934 Added to main list 30/8/2022
Eddie Fenech Adami Malta Prime Minister (1987–1996; 1998–2004)
President (2004–2009)		 7 February 1934 Added to main list 8/9/2022
Mohamed Ennaceur Tunisia Acting President (2019) 21 March 1934 Added to main list 4/11/2022
J. Y. Pillay Singapore Acting President (2017) 30 March 1934 Added to main list 5/11/2022
Édouard Frank Central African Republic Prime Minister (1991–1992) 5 April 1934 Added to main list 30/11/2022
John Malecela Tanzania Prime Minister (1990–1994) 19 April 1934 Added to main list 31/12/2022
Pedro Pires Cape Verde Prime Minister (1975–1991)
President (2001–2011)		 29 April 1934 Added to main list 3/1/2023
Lee Hong-koo South Korea Prime Minister (1994–1995) 9 May 1934 Added to main list 9/2/2023
Heng Samrin Kampuchea (People's Republic of) President of the Council of State (1979–1992)
Party General Secretary (1981–1991)		 25 May 1934 Added to main list 11/2/2023
Monica Dacon Saint Vincent and the Grenadines Acting Governor-General (2002) 4 June 1934 Added to main list 22/4/2023
Albert II Belgium King (1993–2013) 7 June 1934 Added to main list 6/7/2023
Désiré Rakotoarijaona Madagascar (People's Republic of) Prime Minister (1977–1988) 19 June 1934 Added to main list 21/7/2023
Dumitru Mazilu Romania Member of the National Salvation Front Council (1989) 24 June 1934 Added to unclear status list 27/7/2023
Fernando José de França Dias Van-Dúnem Angola Prime Minister (1991–1992; 1996–1999) 24 August 1934 Added to main list 27/7/2023
Ricardo de la Espriella Panama President (1982–1984) 5 September 1934 Added to main list 1/8/2023
Apas Jumagulov Kyrgyzstan Prime Minister (1993–1998) 19 September 1934
Eugene Koffi Adoboli Togo Prime Minister (1999–2000) 3 October 1934
Yakubu Gowon Nigeria Head of the Federal Military Government (1966–1975) 19 October 1934
Hamilton Green Guyana Prime Minister (1985–1992) 9 November 1934
Ingvar Carlsson Sweden Prime Minister (1986–1991; 1994–1996)
Nicéphore Soglo Benin Acting Prime Minister (1990–1991)
President (1991–1996)		 29 November 1934
Tarcisio Bertone Vatican Camerlengo during papal vacancy (2013) 2 December 1934 Unclear status list
Pratibha Patil India President (2007–2012) 19 December 1934
Stjepan Mesić Yugoslavia
Croatia		 President of the Presidency (1991)
President (2000–2010)		 24 December 1934
Paulin Obame-Nguema Gabon Prime Minister (1994–1996) 28 December 1934
Waldo Bernal Pereira [es] Bolivia Junta member (1980; 1981) 1931/1934 Added to unclear status/DoB list 13/2/2022
Félix Mouzabakani Congo-Brazzaville Co-Commander of the Army (1963) 1934 Added to unclear status/DoB list 9/7/2022
Severiano Tura San Marino Captain Regent (1985) c. 1934 Added to unclear DoB list 8/2/2023

– Jwkozak91 (talk) 08:06, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Maybe Waldo Bernal Pereira should be added to the main article (unknown birth with unclear status) StjepanHR (talk) 18:17, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

I put Bernal Pereira in an unknown birth with unclear status table; it was deleted by another user.– Jwkozak91 (talk) 21:24, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
Any recent media coverage? Star Garnet (talk) 22:04, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
I don't understand Spanish, but from this: [30] , with the use of Google translate, it seems he was living on a farm in 2018. StjepanHR (talk) 23:22, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

- Adding to prevent further archiving TheCorriynial (talk) 20:34, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

And again. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 08:08, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Unproven possibilities and future additions

There is a list of all leaders for which there is not a death date on Rulers.org (at least before one month), and I sorted them in few categories (U stands for "unproven", A for "alive"):

Name State Position Birth note
Possibly dead, but potential additions if a recent source can be found
Emmanuel Bruny Haiti Executive Government Council (1957) 1915
Feliciano Avelar El Salvador Member of the Civic-Military Directory (1961-1962) 1919
Avtar Singh Sikkim Political Officer (1964-1966) 18 October 1921 Unlikely position qualifies; possibly died in 2015 [31] common name/surname combination though
Ricardo Falla Cáceres El Salvador Junta of Government (1960-1961) 1921 Spanish wiki [32] and some other sources [33] [34] claim 1929-1990
Jaime Florentino Mendieta Vargas Bolivia Junta of Commanders of the Armed Forces (1971) 1922 Possibly 1926-2000?
Marino Vagnetti San Marino Captain Regent (1971-1972, 1989) 1924
Ahmad al-Sayari Yemen (Kingdom) Prime Minister (1962) 1924 Unclear status/DoB list
No citation, see discussion here
Ri Kun-mo DPR Korea Premier (1986-1988) 1926 Likely deceased, see discussion here
Emmanuel Bodjollé Togo Chairman of the Insurrection Committee (1963) 1928 Needs a better citation
Laurence Greig Cook Islands Acting Queen's Representative (2000-2001) 24 February 1929 No citatation
Articles on status and monarchy of Cooks suggest QR position qualifies.
Karan Singh Jammu & Kashmir
(princely state)		 Prince Regent (1949–1952) 9 March 1931 See discussion below. Unclear status list.
Michel Lévêque Monaco Minister of State (1997-2000) 19 July 1933 Needs a more recent citation
Martin M'Bia Congo (People's Republic of the)
[a.k.a. Congo-Brazzaville]		 Member of the Military Committee (1977) 1934 Unclear status/DoB list
No citation
Óscar Pammo Rodríguez [es] Bolivia Junta member (1981) 1934 Unclear status/DoB list
Needs a more recent citation (2006: [35])
"None of the Soviet Republic Party Secretaries in this table were in power when their republics were recognized as independent states by other United Nations member states, or by the Commission of the European Economic Community, which should be the criterion for their inclusion in the main article table. Vaino Väljas is a special case, as he was still Party Chairman on August 20, 1991 (the day Estonia restored its independence); however, the Popular Front of Estonia had won the ESSR's republic elections on March 18, 1990, and were directing the government in Tallinn, not the republic's Communist Party." – Jwkozak91 (talk) 05:57, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

1. Good possibility of being alive (1926-1929, 1930 and later to be done): (U=3, A=0)

  • Ambrose Patrick Genda, Sierra Leone, head of government, 1927, somebody with the same name died in London in 2001 (and in "Reinventing the Colonial State: Constitutionalism, One-party Rule, and Civil" (p. 138), it is claimed that he had lived in London) and German wiki claimed he died in 2015
Asked about him on German Wiki, he died in 2002, the user told me that the source is "The Paradoxes of History and Memory in Post-Colonial Sierra Leone". I still won't cross him, as I can't preview the book, but I am 99% sure he is not alive anymore StjepanHR (talk) 15:11, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
I agree he's very likely deceased, though I notice that the page reference given in the German article (p679) can't be right because the publisher only lists the book as having 332 pages! Curiously, Genda doesn't appear on List of heads of state of Sierra Leone at all - I don't know why, as others in 'office' for as little as a couple of days do appear. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 12:16, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Ri Kun-mo, North Korea, prime minister, 1926, published in 2004, chronology through 2001, now disputed. Died in 2001 according to Alexandre Mansourov.
"Historical Dictionary of Togo" (ed. 2021) refers to him as "retired". Is it enough to put him on the list? StjepanHR (talk) 03:38, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

– Adding to prevent further archiving – Jwkozak91 (talk) 08:24, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Ambrose Genda

I think we can cross him for good:

  • myheritage: [36]
  • here is a background of an old photo of him: [37], which confirms his wife's name

I will leave few days for other users to leave their opinion. StjepanHR (talk) 11:11, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Fairly conclusive I would say, in combination with the earlier discussion about him, (plus the individual in the photo at myheritage matches the person in this photo] I found) so would agree with removal. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 13:14, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
Actually, if MyHeritage has records, could someone possibly cross reference Bruny and any of our other unclear folks? TheCorriynial (talk) 21:59, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
It would be useful, especially if somebody is already a member. StjepanHR (talk) 00:48, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
Well, actually it doesn't have to be just MyHeritage. Just as long as its a genealogy page of some type with access to archives (Whether it be governmental/census, death registries, newspapers, so on). TheCorriynial (talk) 02:52, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
  • Since we haven't gotten anyone saying other wise, Grenda should go TheCorriynial (talk) 11:55, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Luis Leoro Franco

IMHO, he should be excluded, as the junta had a clear leader. StjepanHR (talk) 14:04, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't think I saw his name on World Statesmen when it was put in the possibilities. TheCorriynial (talk) 17:08, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
Any other opinions? By all accounts, Alfredo Poveda was the official leader of the junta. StjepanHR (talk) 13:04, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
I added him to the possibilities table just for completeness, but considering his article on Spanish Wiki gives two diffeent years of birth a decade apart, I must admit I wasn't at all confident that he could meet the threshhold for inclusion. On that basis I'll go ahead and remove him. 2A02:8012:227B:0:DDF6:42C0:DAA6:FD03 (talk) 16:43, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

1935 births

I appreciate it may be a little too soon for this, but I've put together the following list of 1935 births, who will start to be eligible for inclusion in the article within a few months. To make sure I found as many as possible, I went through the articles on heads of state and heads of government for each state in turn. Of course I may nonetheless have missed some, so additions would be welcome. Any sources that can be found that's newer or better is also welcome.

Name State Position Birth Note/sources
Giovanni Lajolo Vatican President of the Governorate (2006–2011) 3 January 1935 Unclear status list
António Ramalho Eanes Portugal President of the Revolutionary Council (1976–1982)
President (1976–1986)		 25 January 1935 [38]
Brian Mullooly Ireland Member of the Presidential Commission during vacancy (1997) 21 February 1935 unclear status list
Artur Rasizade Azerbaijan Prime Minister (1996–2003, 2003–2018) 26 February 1935 [39] Better source if possible is needed.
Mohammed Basindawa Yemen Prime Minister (2011–2014) 4 April 1935
Peter Hollingworth Australia Governor-General (2002–2003) 10 April 1935 [40] Slightly better source could be welcome.
P. J. Patterson Jamaica Prime Minister (1992–2006) 10 April 1935 [41]
Sharavyn Gungaadorj Mongolian People's Republic Prime Minister (1990) 2 May 1935 Needs a source, article does mention he runs a Agropro, maybe they have chair person list or have been in the news.
Nemesi Marqués Oste Andorra Representative of the Episcopal Co-Prince (1993–2012) 17 May 1935
José Mujica Uruguay President (2010–2015) 20 May 1935 [42] He speaks a lot to press, newer sources could be used.
Léon Kengo wa Dondo Zaire First State Commissioner (1982–1986, 1988–1990);
Prime Minster (1994–1997)		 22 May 1935
Sultan Ali Keshtmand Afghanistan (Democratic Republic of) Prime Minister (1981–1988, 1989–1990) 22 May 1935 [43]
Jim Bolger New Zealand Prime Minister (1990–1997) 31 May 1935 [44]
Lee Hoi-chang South Korea Prime Minister (1993–1994) 2 June 1935 Needs source that mentions him not running for president.
Rodrigo Borja Cevallos Ecuador President (1988–1992) 19 June 1935 Source is needed.
Tenzin Gyatso Tibet Ruler (1950–1959)
Dalai Lama (1937–present)		 6 July 1935 Unclear status list? [45], although he has been in the news lately.
Hifikepunye Pohamba Namibia President (2005–2015) 18 August 1935 [46]
Abdou Diouf Senegal Prime Minister (1970–1980)
President (1981–2000)		 7 September 1935 [47] Better source if possible is needed.
Henri Benoit de Coignac [tr] Andorra French Viguier (1982–1984) 3 October 1935
Daniel Williams Grenada Governor-General (1996–2008) 4 November 1935
Young Vivian Niue Premier (1992–1993, 2002–2008) 12 November 1935 Unclear status list
Mahmoud Abbas Palestine President (2005–present)
Prime Minister (2003)
Chairman PLO (2004–present)		 15 November 1935 Unlclear status list? Member state of the UN. [48]
Stojan Andov Macedonia (Former Yugoslav Republic of) Acting President (1995) 30 November 1935 [49]
Adnan Badran Jordan Prime Minister (2005) 15 December 1935 [50] confirmation needed.
Edward Schreyer Canada Governor General (1979–1984) 21 December 1935 [51]
Salman Saudi Arabia King (2015–present)
Prime Minister (2015–2022)		 31 December 1935 [52], although I assume he has more recent news out there.
Al-Jazuli Daf'allah Sudan Prime Minister (1985–1986) December 1935 Unclear DoB list
Leonel Mário d'Alva São Tomé and Príncipe Acting President (1991) 1935 Unclear DoB list
Mohammed Ali Salim Libya Acting President (2012) 1935 Unclear DoB/status list

2A02:8012:227B:0:DDF6:42C0:DAA6:FD03 (talk) 12:50, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

I did some looking up of this as well, and I'll add the few missing I've found. And my list has sources, maybe I'll add them as well. TheCorriynial (talk) 15:57, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for adding sources and Sharavyn Gungaadorj, who I missed. I've removed Sir John Swan though as Bermuda isn't an sovereign state, but a British Overseas Territory. On a similar basis, I looked again at whether Young Vivian of Niue should be included. Political status of the Cook Islands and Niue seems quite clear that the island's status is akin to the Compact of Free Association states. 2A02:8012:227B:0:DDF6:42C0:DAA6:FD03 (talk) 17:00, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
In relation to Mahmoud Abbas, Palestine has been recognised by the UN since 2012, but his tenure goes back before that, so I was unsure precisely what description to use for him and whether/in what way the shift in status should be indicated in the table. That's why I put 'Unclear staus?' with a question mark - I was unclear about his specific title(s) as leader over time.
I was similarly unsure about the Dalai Lama. He will almost certainly be in the 'Unclear status' table, but what to describe him as, and over what time period? I think what I've put in the table is simple and accurate, but it may not be. 2A02:8012:227B:0:8875:5FA5:E124:5FEB (talk) 14:12, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
José Mujica is from Uruguay, not from Paraguay Pindrice (talk) 22:55, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
The claim of the Palestinian Territories (the only legal entity that exists under the Oslo Accords) to legal statehood is not recognised by most of the Big Five in the UN (UK, USA, France) and observer status at the UN is not actual membership. Those factors should weigh the most when considering where Abbas should go. 180.150.38.126 (talk) 14:52, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Koffi Adoboli source problem

Per the rules of the article "A source within the last ten years." The current one is 2011. So as it sits, they should be off the list until something is found, then added back if found. Would need to find one soon though... TheCorriynial (talk) 22:13, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

This is from 2014: [53] StjepanHR (talk) 22:35, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
@User:Jwkozak91 happy with that one? TheCorriynial (talk) 00:53, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
This is from 2020.--79.44.126.63 (talk) 14:49, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Three possibilities

  • Michael J. Williams (politician), born 1929, acting President of Trinidad and Tobago (1987) while president was abroad [54]; would need source
  • Karan Singh, born 1931, Prince Regent of Jammu and Kashmir (1949–1952), perhaps somebody has a deeper knowledge/understanding of the accession of Jammu and Kashmir (princely state) than WP has, and when the accession was formalized (was it only an associate of the Indian Union, and thus an independent state, from 1949 to 1952?); is alive
  • José Ramón Ávalos Navarrete, born 1933 or 1935, member of the Revolutionary Government Junta (1980–1982), unclear whether Adolfo Arnoldo Majano and Jaime Abdul Gutiérrez were really chairmen of junta as claimed on WP, or if (as I suspect) somebody has confused being the leader of the military with being the chair of the junta; would need source

Thoughts/input?

Star Garnet (talk) 00:01, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Michael J. Williams (politician) Thoughts: The article says the actual president was in the UK at the time, but they did act in their stead for four days, so may be a border line. EDIT: just found this for Williams: https://newsday.co.tt/2022/10/09/uwi-principal-challenges-timekeeper-michael-williams-to-fix-clock-for-free/
Karan Singh Thoughts: Borderline, needs clarity on its status, but appears to be a possible one. World Statesman (WS) says him and another person were Maharajas at the time.
José Ramón Ávalos Navarrete Thoughts: WS says he's dead, died in 2021. Need a source to confirm it though, as I didn't find one in a quick search. TheCorriynial (talk) 00:31, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
Williams: an extremely unusual situation, but rulers.org lists him as an acting president, so I would add him to the addenda
Singh: to me, it seems that Jammu and Kashmir was no longer an independent state since 1947, but an expert opinion would be really useful here
Avalos Navarette: Sadly, no longer alive: [55] and [56] StjepanHR (talk) 08:14, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
I've updated Avalos' page to reflect StjepanHR's findings. I'd agree about Williams too. Karan Singh is much more difficult; in one sense a unique case, but then it does have some things in common with the Dalai Lama situation, which I mentioned above. In any case, I've placed him in the 'Possibiities' table. 2A02:8012:227B:0:4D67:9C9C:BC61:2AB9 (talk) 14:03, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

1934 births

I think this concept of a table is a good one.

As of 27 December 2021, there are 3 people left to add to the hidden 5 in the main article table. I could only find these people going through 1934#Births (again, feel free to add others or remove those who are deceased):

Name State Position Birth note
Rudolf Schuster Slovakia President (1999–2004) 4 January 1934 Added to main list 9/7/2022
Jean Chrétien Canada Prime Minister (1993–2003) 11 January 1934 Added to main list 15/7/2022
Édith Cresson France Prime Minister (1991–1992) 27 January 1934 Added to main list 30/8/2022
Eddie Fenech Adami Malta Prime Minister (1987–1996; 1998–2004)
President (2004–2009)		 7 February 1934 Added to main list 8/9/2022
Mohamed Ennaceur Tunisia Acting President (2019) 21 March 1934 Added to main list 4/11/2022
J. Y. Pillay Singapore Acting President (2017) 30 March 1934 Added to main list 5/11/2022
Édouard Frank Central African Republic Prime Minister (1991–1992) 5 April 1934 Added to main list 30/11/2022
John Malecela Tanzania Prime Minister (1990–1994) 19 April 1934 Added to main list 31/12/2022
Pedro Pires Cape Verde Prime Minister (1975–1991)
President (2001–2011)		 29 April 1934 Added to main list 3/1/2023
Lee Hong-koo South Korea Prime Minister (1994–1995) 9 May 1934 Added to main list 9/2/2023
Heng Samrin Kampuchea (People's Republic of) President of the Council of State (1979–1992)
Party General Secretary (1981–1991)		 25 May 1934 Added to main list 11/2/2023
Monica Dacon Saint Vincent and the Grenadines Acting Governor-General (2002) 4 June 1934 Added to main list 22/4/2023
Albert II Belgium King (1993–2013) 7 June 1934 Added to main list 6/7/2023
Désiré Rakotoarijaona Madagascar (People's Republic of) Prime Minister (1977–1988) 19 June 1934 Added to main list 21/7/2023
Dumitru Mazilu Romania Member of the National Salvation Front Council (1989) 24 June 1934 Added to unclear status list 27/7/2023
Fernando José de França Dias Van-Dúnem Angola Prime Minister (1991–1992; 1996–1999) 24 August 1934 Added to main list 27/7/2023
Ricardo de la Espriella Panama President (1982–1984) 5 September 1934 Added to main list 1/8/2023
Apas Jumagulov Kyrgyzstan Prime Minister (1993–1998) 19 September 1934 Added to main list 22/9/2023
Eugene Koffi Adoboli Togo Prime Minister (1999–2000) 3 October 1934 Added to main list 21/10/2023
Yakubu Gowon Nigeria Head of the Federal Military Government (1966–1975) 19 October 1934
Hamilton Green Guyana Prime Minister (1985–1992) 9 November 1934
Ingvar Carlsson Sweden Prime Minister (1986–1991; 1994–1996)
Nicéphore Soglo Benin Acting Prime Minister (1990–1991)
President (1991–1996)		 29 November 1934
Tarcisio Bertone Vatican Camerlengo during papal vacancy (2013) 2 December 1934 Unclear status list
Pratibha Patil India President (2007–2012) 19 December 1934
Stjepan Mesić Yugoslavia
Croatia		 President of the Presidency (1991)
President (2000–2010)		 24 December 1934
Paulin Obame-Nguema Gabon Prime Minister (1994–1996) 28 December 1934
Waldo Bernal Pereira [es] Bolivia Junta member (1980; 1981) 1931/1934 Added to unclear status/DoB list 13/2/2022
Félix Mouzabakani Congo-Brazzaville Co-Commander of the Army (1963) 1934 Added to unclear status/DoB list 9/7/2022
Severiano Tura San Marino Captain Regent (1985) c. 1934 Added to unclear DoB list 8/2/2023

– Jwkozak91 (talk) 08:06, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Maybe Waldo Bernal Pereira should be added to the main article (unknown birth with unclear status) StjepanHR (talk) 18:17, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

I put Bernal Pereira in an unknown birth with unclear status table; it was deleted by another user.– Jwkozak91 (talk) 21:24, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
Any recent media coverage? Star Garnet (talk) 22:04, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
I don't understand Spanish, but from this: [57] , with the use of Google translate, it seems he was living on a farm in 2018. StjepanHR (talk) 23:22, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

- Adding to prevent further archiving TheCorriynial (talk) 20:34, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

And again. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 08:08, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

– And again.– Jwkozak91 (talk) 06:39, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

10 Years are a long time

Why is the limit for a source for beeing alive 10 years? This is a very long time. Wouldn't be better five years? 2003:E9:270E:B8DD:A4F2:B6BD:3B21:ED32 (talk) 18:35, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

I would argue 10 makes sense. There are many leaders, that for example, were very short term, or retired shortly afterwords, and went quiet and out of the press. And with the name they once had, if they do die afterwords, we tend to find out quickly. And when they do appear, its once in awhile, someone mentions them still living, family, so on, TheCorriynial (talk) 18:57, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Normaly you will find some notices around birthdays - exspecially on "round" ones (85, 90, 95). Ten years are a very long time and it's very suspicious when you don't have any notice for a long time. How often we had a notice about birthday or a death when we had more then five years after the last signe of live? For the candidates on the actuall list without a notice for more then five years I realy doubt that we will get a notice about there death... Maybe they are long dead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:EA:EF2E:8701:592A:6BF6:A795:AEF5 (talk) 12:08, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Ivan Silayev had one of the oldest sources for being alive but his death had many sources quickly. Tun Tin was also very difficult to find sources for, require editors who spoke Burmese to go through very obscure government documents to find proof he was still alive. He also very quickly had sourcing for his death. That's just the two I remember the best, but it's definitely happened other times. Emk9 (talk) 17:45, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
By my count only 8 out of 100 entries in the main table have a source dating from before 2020, so I really don't think there's an issue here - the overwhelming majority have references which can be described as recent. Of those that don't, Ricardo de la Espriella only joined the list a month ago; Mohammad Hasan Sharq had been on the unlcear status list until recently; while Mabandla Dlamini had been on the unclear DoB list for quite some time if I recall. Only Édouard Frank is approaching a breach of the ten year rule, so I don't think change is justified. 2A02:8012:227B:0:38A0:390A:546F:F143 (talk) 10:06, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Source thoughts for Jimmy Carter

With Rosalynn Carter in the news, several of the sources have also mentioned Jimmy as "Living with ailing husband", or on the statement "She continues to live happily at home with her husband". Could a news source like that be used at the same time? TheCorriynial (talk) 02:00, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Updates are pointless. We'll know within minutes if/when he dies. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 03:21, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Update on 8/20/23 (20/8/23) Based on the two recent interviews from Hugo Wurtezal (in USA Today, and last source), saying "He's still really sick. He's not doing too good because he is 98, but it's basically just family taking care of him right now. He's pretty stationary...", and Josh Carter (in current source, Guardian), saying that "In the final chapter" it seems we are in the final days or even hours of Jimmy Carter's life. Be alert for any more updates and or death announcements. TheCorriynial (talk) 18:37, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
So close to breaking Garner's record for the longest lived US president or vice president. GoodDay (talk) 18:43, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
Carter passes Garner in just a matter of hours. Will that be noted in one or both of their articles? 180.150.38.126 (talk) 02:01, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

President Carter passes Garner on September 18th. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.150.38.126 (talk) 01:12, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Not relevant for this talk page. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 03:33, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Hello again. Its been reported by CNN that Jimmy and Rosalynn were in a parade in Plains either yesterday or today, but its super soon after the NYT on the 21st, but if someone wishes to switch it to that, feel free to do so. TheCorriynial (talk) 20:13, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Karan Singh

Although I was against including him a couple of months ago, I tried reading more about the situation while he was in power and have (sort of) changed my opinion. Although the process of joining India was well underway while Singh was a ruler, it seems that it was completed in mid-1950s, which would qualify him for "unclear status" list. Any other opinion? StjepanHR (talk) 15:15, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Pretty much where I was/am at. Star Garnet (talk) 17:15, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
Then let's wait a couple of days for any pbjections and I would go on with adding him to the addenda. StjepanHR (talk) 11:20, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
If the situation is as described, in a way, its like when a caretaker government is in power between a junta and a democracy, although in this case the then sitting government holding until India joined with them. So its likely a unclear status. TheCorriynial (talk) 14:13, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
I'd also support his inclusion. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 11:26, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
So, it seems that the consensus is to add him. I'll try to do it when I have time, probably tomorrow. If anyone wants to do it before, feel free :) StjepanHR (talk) 12:31, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
Done! 217.155.59.206 (talk) 16:52, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
Karan Singh needs a source, not Michael J. Williams (politician)'s, but after that, it should be okay. TheCorriynial (talk) 23:10, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
Thank You very much. Missed this one due to one lengthy argument I am having on another page :( StjepanHR (talk) 20:01, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
@StjepanHR: Agree, but Ajman as well. --95.24.70.233 (talk) 18:11, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
Sorry, what about Ajman? As much as I know, they are a part of the UAE. StjepanHR (talk) 23:00, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
It looks like the above person is raising the status of rulers of the individual emirates. This is the third time its been brought up on this page (possibly by the same person?) - each time it has been pointed out that they don't qualify even for the unclear status list as they're not sovereign states. They're *might* have been grounds to include Saqr bin Mohammed Al Qasimi of Ras Al Khaimah (lived 1918/20-2010, reigned 1948-2010) which didn't join the Federation on its foundation like the others (2 December 1971) but waited until 10 February 1972. What the precise status was of RAK for the short period between those dates I don't know (possibly similar to Karan Singh?) but he's decaesed anyway, so the point is moot.13:03, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
@StjepanHR: UAE is a unique loose confederation of absolute monarchies. At least in 1981 it was so. --95.24.60.152 (talk) 02:17, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Jaime Florentino Mendieta Vargas and other in Unproven possibilities and future addition

  • Vargas: Looking at world statesmen, it seem to agree with our "Unproven possibilities and future additions" that Jaime Florentino Mendieta Vargas died in 2000. Can someone confirm that?
  • Bruny: Statemen has added next to Bruny d ...., which may imply that they believe that he's likely died, but dont know when.


TheCorriynial (talk) 18:23, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

While I am 99.999e% sure Bruny is dead, I still don't think they have any proof, as they sometimes add (d....) to leader extremely likely to be deceased. As for Vargas, I would remove him if it wasn't for the different birthyears. I think it is possible there are two men of similar age with the same name (Jaime Vargas), and that only one of them is certainly dead.
I have also found Feliciano Avelar who died in 1964 or so and is of approximately same age (based on his parents' and siblings' ages) as "our" Dr. Avelar, but I am still not 100% convinced it is the same Feliciano Avelar, as it is a common name StjepanHR (talk) 14:24, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
Its possible, checking that source. But it seems odd the death wasn't reported, being 1964 wasn't that long after their time in power.. Can a newspaper from Jan 1964 in El Salvador be found for an obituary, prehaps?
@StjepanHR TheCorriynial (talk) 15:43, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
Actually, it can't be. Found a news paper from 1965 with a statement from him. TheCorriynial (talk) 16:03, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Guillermo Rodríguez Lara

Im confused now. If you look him up, his Spanish wiki doesn't collaborate with other sources. Other sites seem to say he's died either in 1990, 1989, but we have modern sources that have him up to 2020. Is he still living with certainty? TheCorriynial (talk) 14:06, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

The source on this page contains a photo of him talking with the at the time president of Ecuador (2017–2021). I've found a number of photos of him on social media from people meeting him, and I also found this licensed photo of him that clearly states it's him in the photo and that the photo was taken in 2012. https://www.imago-images.com/st/0069293028 I think it's pretty safe to say he's still alive. Emk9 (talk) 19:28, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
Right, it was odd some major sites had him listed as having died. TheCorriynial (talk) 19:45, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Keep an eye out on the Spanish sources, as he's turned 100. I wouldn't be surprised if a government source or some source has something about him being 100.

Édouard Frank and César Yanes Urías

We're now half a year out from the 10-year mark on the ref for Frank/Franck. There might be some media coverage of his 90th birthday, but I wouldn't count on it. I thought I might have a source from 2017, but it turned out to be a Belgian lawyer of the same name. We could also be in another Fred Degazon situation, where a leader lives out their life abroad rather anonymously, so it would be great if somebody finds something that I missed. For Yanes, how confident are we that his death will be covered by the media? There's this, which pretty reliably puts him alive in April 2021, but even 2+ years is quite a long time for someone who'd be 103, let alone the 5 years we have for a non-social media source. Star Garnet (talk) 17:15, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

I imagine Urías, when he turned 100, may have had something, unless he moved or went under press radar for so long. Perhaps its a sign he's died already since 2021? Although, I do wonder if that government source may require doing what the one Burmese PM to find.
Frank maybe its worth waiting for his 90th, but if nothing around then, then may need to be concerned. TheCorriynial (talk) 23:23, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
While we're on the subject of Salvadoran junta members, what about Ricardo Falla Cáceres? He's been in the unproven table for a while, and there are three sources suggesting a date of death more than thirty years ago. Is it time to remove him? 217.155.59.206 (talk) 09:29, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Ricardo Falla Caceres: I am fine with his removal. I think I even suggested that before (not sure). Other opinions?
StjepanHR (talk) 18:39, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
Caceres, according to World Statesmen, is listed as died in 1990, so perhaps we now have some confirmation of other sources? TheCorriynial (talk) 18:15, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
Looking at the César Yanes Urías tweet, it is from a government account... so id argue that its probably an acceptable to use as a source, which would fix his source quickly. TheCorriynial (talk) 12:24, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Laurence Greig

This list is updated when someone on the list dies, and he is still listed: [58]. Would You consider this to be enough for his inclusion? StjepanHR (talk) 17:33, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

No objection, at least not a strong one. And in this instance, there's at least evidence he was alive in 2017, although I'm not sure you could prove that it's the same person. Star Garnet (talk) 03:16, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
The only additional point I'd make is that Grieg should to be included in the main list as a viceregal representative. We include governors-general, even acting ones, and he fulfilled the same role, albeit the title differs. The articles I added to his entry in the possibilities table back up this interpretation in my view. We also include both pre- and post-1993 representatives in Andorra, whose position seems to be very similar in many ways.217.155.59.206 (talk) 10:24, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
The question is when the Cook Islands achieved sovereign state status. 1965? 1992? Not even today? Some amorphous point in between? For Andorra, that was a few centuries ago, with UN membership not changing much in 1993. It may be that only UN membership will firmly raise the Cook Islands to 'sovereign state' status. Star Garnet (talk) 17:51, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
1965 was the date of self-government, and lots of entities are self-governing without being soveign, so not then. It's not relevant anyway because the Queens' Representative wasn't established in that form until 1982. The entry in the list of sovereign states you linked to links in turn to Foreign relations of the Cook Islands, which says that New Zealand stopped acting as signatory of international agreements on behalf of the Cooks in 1988, and that the UN "recognized the full treaty-making capacity of the Cook Islands" in 1992. I'd contend then that the clear-cut answer to the question is the latter year. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 13:49, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
FWIW, the Cook Islands are not a sovereign state. It's not independent from New Zealand & therefore isn't a separate commonwealth realm. GoodDay (talk) 13:58, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
My comment was in reponse to a specific question from another user; I provided an explanation of my point of view on the issue, with links to articles in support (these articles themselves contain citations for the key statements). If a third party is going to interpose themselves, it would be reasonable to expect them to engage with the points I've made, or at the very least contribute something to the discussion. As it is, they have merely made a rather dismissive statement of doubtful relevance (I didn't mention Commonwealth Realms) which appears frankly more than a little rude. I'm starting to wonder why I bother. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 11:56, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

How to present Saint Vincent and the Grenadines

Now that the page has been protected & reverted to its status quo. Perhaps 'now', the Mobile/IP editor will bring forward their proposal for making changes to how Saint Vincent and the Grenadines should be presented, in the column of countries. GoodDay (talk) 01:14, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Albert II Source question

Im not totally aware of the Belgian Monarchs and their photos date, but this page for his wife's birthday, but is the photo recent (Near the top)? https://www.tatler.com/gallery/queen-paola-of-belgium-style TheCorriynial (talk) 01:04, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

According to Getty it's from July 21, 2023. https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/queen-mathilde-of-belgium-king-philippe-of-belgium-king-news-photo/1560289866

Unproven possibilities and future additions

There is a list of all leaders for which there is not a death date on Rulers.org (at least before one month), and I sorted them in few categories (U stands for "unproven", A for "alive"):

Name State Position Birth note
Possibly dead, but potential additions if a recent source can be found
Emmanuel Bruny Haiti Executive Government Council (1957) 1915
J.L. Malhautra Sikkim Acting Political Officer (1964) 1915 Unlikely position qualifies
Feliciano Avelar El Salvador Member of the Civic-Military Directory (1961-1962) 1919 Could this be him? [59] ; Obviously not, as there are sources of him being alive in 1965
Avtar Singh Sikkim Political Officer (1964-1966) 18 October 1921 Unlikely position qualifies; possibly died in 2015 [60] common name/surname combination though
Ricardo Falla Cáceres El Salvador Junta of Government (1960-1961) 1921 Spanish wiki [61] and some other sources [62] [63] claim 1929-1990
Jaime Florentino Mendieta Vargas Bolivia Junta of Commanders of the Armed Forces (1971) 1922 Possibly 1926-2000?
Marino Vagnetti San Marino Captain Regent (1971-1972, 1989) 1924
Ahmad al-Sayari Yemen (Kingdom) Prime Minister (1962) 1924 Unclear status/DoB list
No citation, see discussion here
Ri Kun-mo DPR Korea Premier (1986-1988) 1926 Likely deceased, see discussion here; [[64]] claims that he didn't die in 2001, but simply retired
Emmanuel Bodjollé Togo Chairman of the Insurrection Committee (1963) 1928 Needs a better citation
Michel Lévêque Monaco Minister of State (1997-2000) 19 July 1933 Needs a more recent citation
Martin M'Bia Congo (People's Republic of the)
[a.k.a. Congo-Brazzaville]		 Member of the Military Committee (1977) 1934 Unclear status/DoB list
Some sources indicate he might be dead: [65], [66] and [67]
Óscar Pammo Rodríguez [es] Bolivia Junta member (1981) 1934 Unclear status/DoB list
Needs a more recent citation (2006: [68])
"None of the Soviet Republic Party Secretaries in this table were in power when their republics were recognized as independent states by other United Nations member states, or by the Commission of the European Economic Community, which should be the criterion for their inclusion in the main article table. Vaino Väljas is a special case, as he was still Party Chairman on August 20, 1991 (the day Estonia restored its independence); however, the Popular Front of Estonia had won the ESSR's republic elections on March 18, 1990, and were directing the government in Tallinn, not the republic's Communist Party." – Jwkozak91 (talk) 05:57, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

1. Good possibility of being alive (1926-1929, 1930 and later to be done): (U=3, A=0)

  • Ambrose Patrick Genda, Sierra Leone, head of government, 1927, somebody with the same name died in London in 2001 (and in "Reinventing the Colonial State: Constitutionalism, One-party Rule, and Civil" (p. 138), it is claimed that he had lived in London) and German wiki claimed he died in 2015
Asked about him on German Wiki, he died in 2002, the user told me that the source is "The Paradoxes of History and Memory in Post-Colonial Sierra Leone". I still won't cross him, as I can't preview the book, but I am 99% sure he is not alive anymore StjepanHR (talk) 15:11, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
I agree he's very likely deceased, though I notice that the page reference given in the German article (p679) can't be right because the publisher only lists the book as having 332 pages! Curiously, Genda doesn't appear on List of heads of state of Sierra Leone at all - I don't know why, as others in 'office' for as little as a couple of days do appear. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 12:16, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Ri Kun-mo, North Korea, prime minister, 1926, published in 2004, chronology through 2001, now disputed. Died in 2001 according to Alexandre Mansourov.
"Historical Dictionary of Togo" (ed. 2021) refers to him as "retired". Is it enough to put him on the list? StjepanHR (talk) 03:38, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

– Adding to prevent further archiving – Jwkozak91 (talk) 08:24, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

- and again, bot closed it TheCorriynial (talk) 15:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Postponing archive Star Garnet (talk) 07:59, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

1934 births

I think this concept of a table is a good one.

As of 27 December 2021, there are 3 people left to add to the hidden 5 in the main article table. I could only find these people going through 1934#Births (again, feel free to add others or remove those who are deceased):

Name State Position Birth note
Rudolf Schuster Slovakia President (1999–2004) 4 January 1934 Added to main list 9/7/2022
Jean Chrétien Canada Prime Minister (1993–2003) 11 January 1934 Added to main list 15/7/2022
Édith Cresson France Prime Minister (1991–1992) 27 January 1934 Added to main list 30/8/2022
Eddie Fenech Adami Malta Prime Minister (1987–1996; 1998–2004)
President (2004–2009)		 7 February 1934 Added to main list 8/9/2022
Mohamed Ennaceur Tunisia Acting President (2019) 21 March 1934 Added to main list 4/11/2022
J. Y. Pillay Singapore Acting President (2017) 30 March 1934 Added to main list 5/11/2022
Édouard Frank Central African Republic Prime Minister (1991–1992) 5 April 1934 Added to main list 30/11/2022
John Malecela Tanzania Prime Minister (1990–1994) 19 April 1934 Added to main list 31/12/2022
Pedro Pires Cape Verde Prime Minister (1975–1991)
President (2001–2011)		 29 April 1934 Added to main list 3/1/2023
Lee Hong-koo South Korea Prime Minister (1994–1995) 9 May 1934 Added to main list 9/2/2023
Heng Samrin Kampuchea (People's Republic of) President of the Council of State (1979–1992)
Party General Secretary (1981–1991)		 25 May 1934 Added to main list 11/2/2023
Monica Dacon Saint Vincent and the Grenadines Acting Governor-General (2002) 4 June 1934 Added to main list 22/4/2023
Albert II Belgium King (1993–2013) 7 June 1934 Added to main list 6/7/2023
Désiré Rakotoarijaona Madagascar (People's Republic of) Prime Minister (1977–1988) 19 June 1934 Added to main list 21/7/2023
Dumitru Mazilu Romania Member of the National Salvation Front Council (1989) 24 June 1934 Added to unclear status list 27/7/2023
Fernando José de França Dias Van-Dúnem Angola Prime Minister (1991–1992; 1996–1999) 24 August 1934 Added to main list 27/7/2023
Ricardo de la Espriella Panama President (1982–1984) 5 September 1934 Added to main list 1/8/2023
Apas Jumagulov Kyrgyzstan Prime Minister (1993–1998) 19 September 1934 Added to main list 22/9/2023
Eugene Koffi Adoboli Togo Prime Minister (1999–2000) 3 October 1934 Added to main list 21/10/2023
Yakubu Gowon Nigeria Head of the Federal Military Government (1966–1975) 19 October 1934 Added to main list 29 (30, announced date in NZ)/12/2023
Hamilton Green Guyana Prime Minister (1985–1992) 9 November 1934 Added to main list 1/1/2024
Ingvar Carlsson Sweden Prime Minister (1986–1991; 1994–1996)
Nicéphore Soglo Benin Acting Prime Minister (1990–1991)
President (1991–1996)		 29 November 1934 Added to main list 28/2/2024
Tarcisio Bertone Vatican Camerlengo during papal vacancy (2013) 2 December 1934 Unclear status list
Pratibha Patil India President (2007–2012) 19 December 1934
Stjepan Mesić Yugoslavia
Croatia		 President of the Presidency (1991)
President (2000–2010)		 24 December 1934
Waldo Bernal Pereira [es] Bolivia Junta member (1980; 1981) 1931/1934 Added to unclear status/DoB list 13/2/2022
Félix Mouzabakani Congo-Brazzaville Co-Commander of the Army (1963) 1934 Added to unclear status/DoB list 9/7/2022
Severiano Tura San Marino Captain Regent (1985) c. 1934 Added to unclear DoB list 8/2/2023

– Jwkozak91 (talk) 08:06, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Maybe Waldo Bernal Pereira should be added to the main article (unknown birth with unclear status) StjepanHR (talk) 18:17, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

I put Bernal Pereira in an unknown birth with unclear status table; it was deleted by another user.– Jwkozak91 (talk) 21:24, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
Any recent media coverage? Star Garnet (talk) 22:04, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
I don't understand Spanish, but from this: [69] , with the use of Google translate, it seems he was living on a farm in 2018. StjepanHR (talk) 23:22, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

- Adding to prevent further archiving TheCorriynial (talk) 20:34, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

And again. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 08:08, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

– And again.– Jwkozak91 (talk) 06:39, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Postponing archive Star Garnet (talk) 07:59, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

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