Talk:List of ethnic armed organisations in Myanmar

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Requested move 18 February 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to List of ethnic armed organisations. (non-admin closure) Natg 19 (talk) 23:31, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

List of insurgent groups in Myanmar → List of rebel groups in Myanmar – Starting an RM discussion because this article's current title may no longer reflect the most commonly used term, nor the most appropriate term to describe the armed groups in Myanmar. When I created this article back in 2015, "insurgent group" was the most widely used term to describe the armed groups fighting at the time. However, it may be more appropriate to use "rebel group" or "armed group" instead to be more general or neutral, as "insurgency" could imply disorganisation or criminality. I am wary of the title "List of ethnic armed organisations" or "ethnic armed organisations", however, because that term was only recently coined (at least in English) in the 2010s, and this article covers a much longer period, i.e. since Myanmar's independence in 1948.

So the proposed titles so far are the following:

CentreLeftRight ✉ 20:34, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support the move with the name List of ethnic armed organisations (in Myanmar). Htanaungg (talk) 10:03, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The name List of ethnic armed organisations in Myanmar is more used by people Editor in Myanmar (talk) 12:24, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support the term List of ethnic armed organisations (abbreviated EAO[1]). Ninja✮Strikers «☎» 09:54, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – Worth noting that "insurgent groups" and "insurgency" have historically been the most used terms in English scholarship about the conflict, but the usage of "ethnic armed organisations" skyrocketed and surpassed other terms after its introduction by the government of Myanmar in the 2010s. This is despite the fact that "ethnic armed organisations" is not a sound term grammatically because the adjective order should be swapped, i.e. armed ethnic organisation. CentreLeftRight ✉ 04:56, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – @Editor in Myanmar, Htanaungg, and Ninjastrikers: What are your opinions on moving this article to "Ethnic armed organisations", i.e. without "list of"? If anyone decides to write a general overview of, or provide general information about, this topic in the future, they can categorise the current lists under a "List" section, and the article can be more encompassing in its content. CentreLeftRight ✉ 05:37, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And the new lead would be something along the lines of:
Ethnic armed organisations (EAOs) is the official term used by the government of Myanmar to describe armed opposition groups in the country[, including those which do not fight for a specific ethnic group's interests].
CentreLeftRight ✉ 05:40, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – I cannot close this move as I am the one who started it, but the consensus is clearly to move the article to List of ethnic armed organisations. There have been no objections in the one and a half weeks since this discussion started, and I doubt that my request for comment from the editors I pinged will be answered any time soon. Regardless, I do not oppose the consensus either, so hopefully someone else who is not involved in this discussion can close the move soon. CentreLeftRight ✉ 07:41, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 30 December 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. EdJohnston (talk) 01:42, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

List of ethnic armed organisations → List of ethnic armed organisations in Myanmar – This list only talks about the ethnic armed groups in Myanmar, as there are other ethnic armed groups in other countries (such as the Tuareg in Mali) that are not mentioned in this article. Blubabluba9990 (talk) (contribs) 00:14, 30 December 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 21:12, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose — "Ethnic armed organisations" is a specific English language designation used in Myanmar. You will not see reliable sources use such a descriptor for armed groups outside of Myanmar, particularly because the term is grammatically incorrect (the adjective order is wrong; it should be "armed ethnic organisations", because something cannot be "ethnic[ally] armed"). Yue🌙 07:06, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It may cause confusion though for people who do not know that and assume this list is about 'all' ethnic armed organizations, such as myself until I read further. Blubabluba9990 (talk) (contribs) 16:21, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Far too vague and generic a term. The clarification is helpful to readers. Walrasiad (talk) 08:19, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppoose The solution is to add a dimsabiguation comment at the top of this article along the lines of "This article is a list of Ethnic Armed Organisations, a type of armed group in Myanmar, for other armed ethnic groups see XXX". As Yue said, the page for other armed ethnic organisations like the Revolutionary Liberation Army of Azawad describes them as "militant rebel groups." Ethnic armed organisation (EAO) is a specific term used with groups in Myanmar (e.g. [2] [3]. Sources (e.g. [4] do use "ethnic armed groups." Google is not the final arbiter here, but even searching for 'Armed ethnic group -"Myanmar"' leads to Ethnic minorities in the U.S. Armed Forces during World War II and not other armed groups. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 16:24, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A comment to add on to myself: This is similar to State Administration Council or Nationwide Ceasefire Agreement as I'm sure there are councils that administer the state or nationwide ceasefire agreements in other countries, but we keep the titles WP:CONCISE when unnecessary for disambiguation. -EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 16:28, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
True, but those are also capitalized. Maybe if the title was capitalized it might make more sense. Myanmar is one country and viewers (such as myself when I originally visited the page) may not know that and may assume it is about all armed ethnic organizations. Blubabluba9990 (talk) (contribs) 22:06, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fair point, we should move the page to List of Ethnic Armed Organisations in that case. I, or another editor, can create a List of armed ethnic groups to include other countries as a separate list, but as I mentioned with the google search, I'm not sure what other non-Myanmar ethnic groups have armies. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 02:13, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Ethnic armed organisation" is not capitalised by the Burmese government or any reliable third-party source, scholarly and journalistic alike. See for example: The Diplomat 1 and 2, The Irrawaddy, RFA, journal articles 1 and 2.
Such a move would be to a title with erroneous capitalisation, and does not fulfill the intention of WP:CONCISE in any way. Yue🌙 08:47, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps a clarifying hatnote is needed at the top, but a native / fluent English reader would not look up "ethnic armed organisation" if they were looking for militant groups composed along ethnic lines, as the phrase itself is horribly incorrect, grammar-wise. Yue🌙 08:51, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
But a user coming to this article would not know that the term is used to refer to the ethnic armed organizations specifically in Myanmar. Blubabluba9990 (talk) (contribs) 02:29, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think a hatnote would suffice. There's nothing "concise" about changing the capitalisation. If you meant "accurate", I don't think using erroneous capitalisation would improve the accuracy of the title. Yue🌙 08:31, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting comment: Seems that the issue here is the recognizability of the government terminology. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 21:12, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom. Clearly ambiguous. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:35, 11 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I support a move to "List of rebel groups in Myanmar", similar to the original name "List of insurgent groups in Myanmar". The old name was opposed because of the stronger connotations around the use of the English word "insurgent", and that same sentiment may be shared by opponents of the word "rebel". However, changing the title to "List of ethnic armed organisations in Myanmar" implies there are ethnic armed organisations outside of Myanmar, which is not true, in the sense that nobody uses that label for ethnic-based armed groups outside of Burmese contexts (because the term itself is not grammatically correct). Yue🌙 22:41, 11 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I still believe a hatnote would suffice to clarify, although I'm not opposed to "List of rebel groups in Myanmar". I would also like to suggest "List of non-state armies in Myanmar" if we want to avoid the connotations of rebel/insurgent. Perhaps we need a separate article on the term "ethnic armed organisations", instead. Technically, the inclusion of Bamar groups in this list means it is a list of non-state armies rather than strictly just EAOs. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 12:20, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    My first preference is still the hatnote. Maybe "List of non-state armed groups in Myanmar" if we want to be really specific and accurate, as not all these groups are considered "armies" by either themselves or analysts. Yue🌙 22:41, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Per others, Myanmar needs to be in the title. Vpab15 (talk) 22:08, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:SURPRISE. The phrase "ethnic armed organisations" is a literal descriptor that applies, by the terms of the English language, to any organization that is 1) armed and 2) defined by an ethnicity. BD2412 T 06:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I heavily oppose "in Myanmar" being the disambiguating phrase as it implies the term "ethnic armed organisations" is used in any other context. It's like disambiguating Seventeen Point Agreement as Seventeen Point Agreement in China because there are other agreements with 17 points. Closest phrase I support a move to is Ethnic armed organisations (Myanmar) or Ethnic armed organisation (Myanmar). Yue🌙 09:19, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Repurpose to List of combatant groups in Myanmar[edit]

Based on the lead of the article and the above RM, I suggest changing the article to a list of combatants involved in the Internal Conflict in Myanmar. There isn't a need for a separate EAO list, since we can create a separate article Ethnic armed organisation to cover the term EAO, the history of EAOs and combining their military and non-military functions (e.g. how many have a armed and a governmental wing). This list should focus on the non-state armies involved in the war. It may be relevant to add the PDF and NUG to this list and adding the various incarnations of the central government will allow us to add them without having WP:POV issues.EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 19:50, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I already made Combatants of the internal conflict in Myanmar a while back. I thought of merging the two lists, but the format and scope of "combatants of" and "order of battle" articles are not really the same as this article's. Considering your proposals, it may be better just to change this article's title to "Ethnic armed organisation (Myanmar)" and dedicate more prose to what the term means and where it came from, and have the current list be a supplementary part of it. Yue🌙 21:33, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ah I didn't see that page. My point still stands that organisations like the ABSDF may not really be EAOs and should, potentially, be removed from this list. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 20:44, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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