Talk:List of countries with their first NHL player

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I noticed that there is a baseball page called List of countries with their first Major League Baseball player. I think a comparable one for the NHL would be good, but I'm not sure where to find this information. I realize I can comb through NHL rosters from the beginning of the league on hockeydb, but I was hoping there was an easier way to put this together. Any ideas? Shootmaster 44 (talk) 21:08, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if it will help much but for some of the more obscure countries the List of NHL statistical leaders by country can help narrow it down some. Keep in mind it really doesn't take goaltenders into account much (considering how few points they accumulate) for example the list only has Ryan O'Marra (born in Japan) who debuted in 2009-10 for Japan when Yutaka Fukufuji was the first Japanese player debuting in 2006-07. Though there are around 10 goaltenders on the list overall.--Mo Rock...Monstrous (leech44) 21:23, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Definition would be annoying. Do you go by straight birthplace alone, or nationality? The answer will decide if Brazil and Indonesia, for instance, make the list. Resolute 22:57, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Also, if the sources exist, I think we can make such a list far more useful than the current baseball example. Have the list show the total number of players from each country who have appeared in an NHL game, with a column for who and when the first was. FWIW, Joe Pelletier actually Tweeted on this today (where you got the inspiration, perhaps?) and according to him, 6666 players have played at least one game in the NHL from 44 countries. Canada had the most at around 4100. Resolute 23:00, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No I actually don't use Twitter. I stumbled across the baseball page and wondered if there was a hockey equivalent. As far as definition, I think birth place is the easiest way to go about it, no disputing anything. I also figure I'd follow the roster template flag rule, meaning Anze Kopitar for this list is Yugoslavian and thus does not make the list as Ivan Boldirev beat him to it. The one thing (like the baseball list) is that former countries and their current incarnations will both appear meaning the USSR and Russia or Dominion of Newfoundland and Canada will both be on the list.
My problem for Canada, is I can't find a reference to the box score for the first NHL game in 1917. I believe all the players are Canadian that appeared in that game and I'd need a reference to the entire game to show it. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 23:21, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Calgary Herald. The story on the Toronto-Wanderers game is two columns to the right. Both include the rosters for all teams involved. Resolute 02:27, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think historical countries should be used. We should follow the same rules as in the List of NHL statistical leaders by country and as officially used by the NHL. Although Anze Kopitar appears in the Template:Los Angeles Kings roster as born in Yugoslavia, the flag shown is that of Slovenia. In addition none of the official NHL.com pages for the Kings, Kopitar and Boldirev mention Yugoslavia. There's even less dispute about the current country than the country at time of birth as the dates of some changes are not very well defined e.g. USSR->CIS->Russia. Also Newfoundland was never an independent country. 99.246.179.122 (talk) 03:11, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I also recently tried to start a very similar discussion in Talk:List of NHL statistical leaders#Flags again but received no responses 99.246.179.122 (talk) 03:38, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed on NFLD. It was a colony, not a country. As far as Kopitar goes, nationality and birthplace are not necessarily the same thing, and we introduce temporal errors if we start correcting histry over political changes. Kopitar was born in Yugoslavia, as Slovenia did not exist as a country. However, his nationality is Slovenian. One field speaks to the past, the other to the present. Resolute 04:16, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree a player's nationality should be irrelevant, that is very hard to verify and can change on a whim; countries are not created every week (this week being an anomaly). Kopitar was born in what what was Yugoslavia and what is now Slovenia, absolutely no debate there. Why perpetuate the problems of the past and introduce unnecessary edits? The NHL views Kopitar as being born in Slovenia. The NHL should be the being the official reference for NHL lists. 99.246.179.122 (talk) 04:54, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually from 1907 until 1934 the Dominion of Newfoundland was sovereign nation in the same way Canada was. So players born in this time period were actually from the "country" of Newfoundland. This is why Foster Hewitt used to begin his radio broadcasts with the phrase "Hello hockey fans in Canada, the United States and Newfoundland." That said, we may not have an issue with Newfoundland, I haven't done enough digging to view whether or not anyone from Newfoundland played in the NHL between 1917 and 1934.
Very interesting information about Newfoundland, I didn't know that it ever had independence. However reading the Dominion of Newfoundland page, it was only independent for a little over 2 years, from December 11, 1931 to February 16, 1934. 99.246.179.122 (talk) 02:55, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Not to debate Newfoundland history, but they were independent from 1907 until 1934. The 1931 Statute of Westminster moved the Constitutions of the country from Great Britain to their Dominions. In theory, Canada, Australia and New Zealand were not truly independent nations until this time either. However, in practice Canada was founded in 1867, Australia in 1901 and Newfoundland in 1907. So for practical reasons, Newfoundland would appear for anyone born between 1907 and 1934. I'm quite certain there was one born then that played in the NHL. So when I find him, I will include it. At any rate, before I move this from my userspace to the mainspace I will have everyone interested to take a look and see what they think. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 03:13, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As for the Nationality versus birthplace debate, the reason I feel place of birth is best is that it is indisputable. Thus, Kopitar being Yugoslavian is the easiest way to do it. Yes after 1993s start entering the NHL we could have problems. I was also following the template that the baseball list set, it contains Austria-Hungary and the Kingdom of Hawaii on the list. I figure this is notable to note which citizens of defunct countries were the first from there. The only issue I've run across so far pulling the info together is that of Ireland. The people of the Republic (and some in the North) consider themselves to be Irish. However, all the "Irishmen" I can find on Hockeydb.com were born in Belfast. This means that they are technically not part of Ireland but rather the United Kingdom. I can forsee a few issues with this possibly. Plus, by going with place of birth you do ensure that the problem of multiple citizenships don't arise. Some of the first players I've run across from some European countries were born there and moved to the US as children.
As mentioned above, I agree with the choice to use birthplace. However Kopitar being Slovenian is by far the easiest way to go using the current political landscape as you suggest below. 99.246.179.122 (talk) 02:55, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Another compromise is that we go with the current political landscape in one list. There could be a second list below of defunct countries listing the first Yugoslavian, who would also appear as the first Serbian. The only issue is what countries fall into a defunct category. The first Russian player I found, was actually born in the Russian Empire which predates the founding of the Soviet Union. The first German was also born before East and West Germany was formed. So does the reunited Germany supercede the pre-split Germany?
The current reunited Germany is the current country so yes it supersedes both the pre-split as well as both the split countries. All players born in current borders of Germany are German and should be treated equally. 99.246.179.122 (talk) 02:55, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The other way of going about this is to show the first Yugoslavian and then also show the first players from the constituent nations that once made it up. The only problem this would create is if we do that, then we might get people wanting the first from each province and state. Also, in the Soviet case, the first player came to the NHL in 1982 (played for the LA Kings). Thus, it is likely he never did return to post-Soviet Russia, so listing him as the first from Russia (not the Russian Empire) might be a misnomer. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 00:06, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, Sweeney Schriner was the first Russian-born player in NHL history. But that does pose a problem, as really, the Russian Empire, Russian SFSR and Russian Federation are essentially the same country, just renamed over time. You could get around both that, and the Belfast, problem by separating the USSR and UK by their constituent countries. Also, does Czechoslovakia and the Czech Republic count as two different countries, and if so, why? I suspect you will have problems with nationalistic arguments relating to the former Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia and, it seems, Yugoslavia. Resolute 01:04, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, Vic Hoffinger is the first Russian born player. He played in '26-'27 before Sweeney Schriner did, but I digress. The problem with him and Sweeney Schriner is that the Russian Empire is not the same country as the Russian SFSR and Russian Federation. If I remember my Russian history class correctly, it actually was more similar in make-up to the entire USSR than to what the current country of Russia is. But in either case, I wouldn't call these players the first Soviets in the NHL. From my digging so far (and it hasn't been too deep), there aren't too many of these players from "empires" to deal with. I think this might be the only case as nobody born in the Austro-Hungarian Empire ever played in the NHL. The one option is to separate Vic Hoffinger as the first from the Russian Empire and having whomever is the first "Russian" as listed as Russia. Perhaps the easiest way is unlike the baseball list, we could wikilink the countries and that should reduce the problems inherent in this list.
The problem with splitting the UK into their constituent countries is that some haven't existed as a country in any sense of the word since 1066. So having England or Wales on there contradicts not having the Russian Empire or the Dominion of Newfoundland on the list. Plus, I doubt there are any Welsh who have played in the NHL. But my digging hasn't gotten that far yet
For the Czech examples, I would say yes they are separate countries. The way I understood the history, Czechoslovakia did not simply see Slovakia cede from the country, but an actual dissolution of the entire country. The two nations split apart into the Czech Republic and Slovakia. I realize this all my Political Science background coming out. But when a countries borders significantly change, the name changes and the government is overthrown, that nation is born. This is why I don't consider Anze Kopitar to belong on the list. In fact no Slovenes would appear on the list until players born in that political entity start playing in the NHL. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 02:30, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Also, does Czechoslovakia and the Czech Republic count as two different countries, and if so, why? " I don't know who it was, but if the first player from Czechoslovakia was from what is now Slovakia rather than from what is now the Czech Republic, that may be an issue. Rlendog (talk) 01:58, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As of right now and my digging hasn't gone that deep yet (which is why the page is still in my userspace) the first Czechoslovakian I can find is Stan Makita and he was actually born in Slovakia. I'm sure when I dig a little deeper I will find an older player who started before him. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 02:30, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You can add Stan Makita to the list of players that introduce problems. Was he born in Czechoslovakia or Slovakia or the Slovak Republic (1939–1945)? 99.246.179.122 (talk) 03:54, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Argh! Then looking at the history, Stan Makita isn't Czechoslovakian. Rather he was born in the Slovak Republic (a country I didn't know existed until now). So then this further complicates things. If a player was born in the Sudetenland, is he then German? Shootmaster 44 (talk) 04:03, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

<outdent> I think I have figured it out. The easiest way to show it is by showing players born in the constituent countries of today by indenting them on the chart and listing them beneath the country of birth. What I mean is I will show it like
USSR

Russia

This will work until players start showing up from Russia that are Russian born. This will likely be in the next season or so. At that point it will take some footnotes to show this.

My problem now is that if I try to indent like you would on here the colon shows up. How can I indent in a chart? Shootmaster 44 (talk) 03:37, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A second problem is does anyone know where you can find a game by game breakdown for players. I just looked at Ukraine on Hockeydb and three players all started in the 1990-91 National Hockey League season (Peter Bondra, Dmitri Khristich and Alexander Godynyuk), so I need to find out who played first. I realize that they may have all played the same day, in which case I will have to list all three as the first. However, someone had to play first and if this listing would have faceoff times I could figure it out easily. This tasks is become alot more daunting than I thought it would be when I set out. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 04:19, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Of those 3, unofficially it looks like Peter Bondra played the first game on 1990-10-05 before Dmitri Khristich on 1990-12-19 or Alexander Godynyuk on 1991-02-06. 99.246.179.122 (talk) 04:37, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Lets complicate things further! Above, I claimed Schriner as the first Russian in NHL history, and I have a reference that will support that. So your claim of Vic Hoffinger intrigued me. It looks like there is no town of Seltz in Russia (it is actually on the French-German border). But there was a Selz, which is now known as Lymans'ke - and it is in Ukraine! That would explain the cite I have for Schriner. But, now there is a legitimate argument that Hoffinger is actually the first Ukrainian... except that Ukraine was not independent at that time. Resolute 04:28, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like Schriner was the first player from modern day Russia. Above you argued against modern boundaries as being nationality. Russian Empire could be sub-divided similar to some of the other countries, however it doesn't appear that there were such subdivisions. We'd be imposing current boundaries on historical countries. Sorry to be repetitive, but I'd prefer to only see current boundaries. It reflects what I think user's would most likely want to see. (I'm also 99.246.179.122). It also throws a wrinkle in my claim that the NHL uses current country. They use the modern country for players born in the USSR, Czechoslovakia or Yugoslavia, but they didn't go back further. 174.119.19.211 (talk) 20:50, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So Vic Hoffinger is the first player from the Russian Empire and the Ukraine, but Schriner becomes the first Russian player. This would have been so much easier if like baseball, hockey hadn't taken root in Eastern Europe. I'm trying to be as inclusive as possible with this list, but in a couple years, I would guess the NHL will start calling a 1992 as the first Russian born player in the NHL and this will get complicated. The other problem I am finding doing this, is since Yutaka Fukufuji and Schreiner (though I haven't looked that closely at the article yet) are the only players who I can cite them being the first player from their respective countries, this whole list might fall under WP:OR. As long as it stays in my userspace, it makes no difference, but the point was to move it out of there into the main space.
For consistency, I disagree with Hoffinger being listed from Ukraine or Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, he was born prior to either of their creation. In a list of modern countries, I agree he should be listed as the first player from Ukraine. 174.119.19.211 (talk) 21:41, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I do agree that consistency is a good thing. My small problem is still what to do with Germany. My first German is Walt Tkaczuk, who was born in 1947, post-Nazi Germany and pre-East/West Germany. However, my first Czech is Jaroslav Jirik who was born in 1939 in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, which was a Nazi Germany protectorate. So is Tkaczuk the first German and Jirik the first Czech? Conversely, should Jirik be the first German and I'll need to find a new Czech? The last option is do I show the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia as a separate country and find a new Czech? The article on the Protectorate doesn't clearly indicate whether it was truly independent (like say France is today), a dependency of Nazi Germany (like Guam is to the US) or a constituent part of Germany (like Bavaria is). If it is one of the last two, technically he is German by birth. However, that confuses things, but the annexation of the Czech territory was internationally recognized, so it isn't like Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. When I started out doing this, I thought my biggest problem would be the USSR, Yugoslavia and possibly the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Who knew Germany and Czechoslovakia would be the biggest problems? Shootmaster 44 (talk) 21:58, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I did a bit more researching and it looks like if we are getting technical, Finland was a grand duchy of the Russian Empire until 1917. So my first Finn Albert Pudas was actually born in the Grand Duchy of Finland. So does he now become the first Russian Empire player in the NHL or since the Grand Duchy was arms length from Moscow is he simply the first Finn? Shootmaster 44 (talk) 22:06, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This is why I've been pushing for using current borders. Working backwards from current borders is easier and much less contentious than trying to determine what defined an obsolete country. e.g. first person born in the current borders of Finland, first since formation of Finland in 1917. It most closely follows nationality which is what I believe most want to see, but with none of its contentious issues. 174.119.19.211 (talk) 22:34, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Given the choice, I would then prefer that Pudas be listed as the first from the Russian Empire. It does look like the Grand Duchy of Finland was a recognized subdivision so the Russian Empire could be subdivided like others. Problem is what to call the main part of the empire where Hoffinger was first? I disagree with arbitrarily subdividing a historical country along current boundaries, but it would allow both Hoffinger and Schriner to be listed. Would that require a second level of indentation? 174.119.19.211 (talk) 00:01, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The other thing I am pondering doing is showing first draft pick from each country, NHL.com has a historical list of players, including draft picks so that isn't too difficult to add. The only issue this causes is since many countries have players who debuted before the draft existed, it could cause confusion to the reader. Any thoughts? Shootmaster 44 (talk) 21:20, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The reference about the Taro pick seems relevant to this proposed column and not to first player to play a game. 174.119.19.211 (talk) 00:01, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

By the by in case anyone is curious what I've got so far, the page is here User:Shootmaster 44/List of countries with their first National Hockey League player Shootmaster 44 (talk) 04:10, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have a new problem, the first player from Czech territory is Jaroslav Jiřík, however when he was born he lived in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, thus sort of part of Nazi Germany. Does he qualify as the first Czechoslovakian player or should he be considered German by birth or is the Protectorate in a sense a separate country and should be listed like the Russian Empire and Slovak Republic (1939-1945)? Shootmaster 44 (talk) 16:21, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Another question I have is perhaps the scope of this list should be expanded to include the "other divisions" of the NHL. What I mean by that is since the PCHA and the WCHL both participated in the NHL playoffs in a sense perhaps they qualify? I only ask because Tommy Dunderdale played solely in the PCHA and WCHL, but was born in Australia so he would make the list. My guess is he would be the only player from those leagues to make it. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 16:38, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The PCHA and WCHL did not participate in NHL playoffs. The Stanley Cup was an inter-league trophy at that time, akin to the Memorial Cup today. I think for all of the questions we have raised above, the best solution for many of these countries might be to note the first player of the modern entity, but add footnotes mentioning the previous players who began prior to said country's independence? Resolute 22:37, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Dunderdale did play in the National Hockey Association which was the immediate predecessor to the NHL. Valid arguments could be made that the two leagues should be treated as the same and that the NHA games should be included, however officially the NHL views the NHA as a completely separate league. As a result other references and Wikipedia pages also view them as separate. 174.119.19.211 (talk) 23:38, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Unless a nationality is blindingly obvious (read: uncontroversial), editors should find a reference. Don't guess on nationality, look it up. Whatever the sources say (regardless of whether or not you agree with them) is what we should say. If multiple nationalities are given, either in the same or in different sources, then that's what we should do as well (implementation wise this is easy to do. Simply list each wikilinked nationality in the same table cell with a <br /> between them).
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 01:28, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The thing with this is that nationality is not the issue. Being an ethnic Swede is inconsequential if the player was born in Peru. The issue with all this was the political status of the country at the time of birth. Being born in a particular country is definitive and non-controversial. Where the confusion lies is that some countries change over time. Lots of countries are easy, 1776 the United States was born, 1867 Canada, 1901 Australia etc. Eastern Europe on the other hand causes problems. Geographically, depending on the map and time of birth could be born in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia (which is a dependency of Nazi Germany), Czechoslovakia or Czech Republic. What the issue boils down to sometimes in these situations is the confusion between geography, politics, ethnicity and citizenship. The way I am looking at this list is strictly from a geographic and political stance, where a player's nationality (i.e. ethnicity) and/or citizenship doesn't matter. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 03:06, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

<outdent>I may have solved all our problems. I found this Lists of sovereign states by year. I say it should be our guide to what countries are what based on the player's year of birth. Thus, that would determine where he would be listed. For the actual geographic territory, I would list that player in a footnote. Meaning that Jaroslav Jirik would be the first German player, but that Walt Tkaczuk would be listed as the first German born in the current geographical region of Germany. This way when a Slovenian born (i.e. born in Slovenia), they would replace Anze Kopitar in the list and Kopitar would move to a footnote showing that he was the first player born in the geographic region now known as Slovenia. This seem like a reasonable compromise? Shootmaster 44 (talk) 03:21, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A minor point, I don't think we should be removing first players. If players are not to be considered and will eventually become a footnote, they should be a footnote now. 174.119.19.211 (talk) 06:13, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The problem for me becomes sovereignty. The way I would do it wouldn't have any indentations and strictly based on where the player was considered born the day he was born. But I am trying to keep this as uncontroversial as possible. But it is going to become an issue when say Player X debuts in the NHL and is from the sovereign country of Slovenia. In the strictest sense of the word, Player X would be the first Slovene born player in the NHL. Anze Kopitar was born in Yugoslavia. So he should be moved to a footnote to denote this. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 20:54, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Since Stan Mikita was born in Slovak Republic (1939–1945) which is considered a German puppet state rather than a sovereign state, should he not be the first player from Germany?
The way I read that article, the Slovak Republic was a puppet state, but it was independent, meaning there was a government running the country. It was akin to Czechoslovakia in it's relationship with the Soviet Union. Coversely, the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia was a dependency of Germany more akin to the Turks and Caicos is to the UK. So Stan Makita was Slovakian, the reason I split it out was the baseball article showed the Kingdom of Hawaii as separate from the United States. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 20:54, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Since Walt Tkaczuk was born in Allied-occupied Germany which is considered an occupied state rather than a sovereign state, what country was he born in? Since Emsdetten was part of the British Zone of Occupation would he be considered born to the United Kingdom? Or in a No man's land?
What I'd like to see is the current Slovakia listed with Stan Mikita as the first player born within the current borders of the country. Then optionally subdivide it or using foot notes, indicate that the Stastnys were the first players born during its time as Czechoslovakia and in a few years a player born in the current current country can be added.
Similarly the current Germany would list with Walt Tkaczuk as its first player. Then optionally add Udo Kiessling from East Germany, Willie Huber from West Germany.
From Czech Republic, Jaroslav Jirik would be the first with Miroslav Frycer first from its Czechoslovakia era. 174.119.19.211 (talk) 06:13, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This solution would work. However, for the Czech situation, I do think a footnote is necessary next to Slovakia to indicate that it includes players born in the Slovak Republic (1939-1945). I also think that Jirik should be footnoted next to Germany to explain the status of Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia. In Walt Tkaczuk's case, I do think a note explaining the situation might be useful. The other way to fix this is to split the list into current countries and former countries. It would duplicate some of the information, but some of the players would be different. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 20:54, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Just don't make things up that aren't said outside of Wikipedia. We're not supposed to be authoring original research here, which is what the above is sounding quite a lot like. Find a book or magazine, or something, and repeat what they say. Also, you can give multiple people from similar areas. Wikipedia articles are freeform after all, so list the Stastny's and Mikita, and whoever else, and then provide explanations as either footnotes or paragraphs somewhere.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 22:01, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing is being made up, Shootmaster 44 has done an excellent job. Every player has a reference to NHL years and birthplace. 174.119.19.211 (talk) 23:24, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wha? The page is still a redlink...
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 00:14, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it is still in my userspace right now. I wanted to develop it first before I move it into the mainspace. It is here User:Shootmaster 44/List of countries with their first National Hockey League player Shootmaster 44 (talk) 00:23, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ah! Thanks for the note. I have a calculus test to take in the morning, so I don't have time to dig deep into it, but... at first glance, that looks great! What you have there is more than adequate as an article, I'd say. There are much worse articles, after all.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 01:57, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Mikita wasn't born in First Slovak Republic. Sokolče belongs to that part of Czechoslovakia that was annexed by Hungary 1938-45. Please fix this as you see best. Hence Mikita was born in Hungary. Gopase+f (talk) 02:09, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As a complete side note, someone was looking for the only player born in Newfoundland while it was an independent country. That player is Alex Faulkner. Patken4 (talk) 12:19, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In 1936, Newfoundland was directly governed by the UK. So technically, nobody from the Dominion of Newfoundland played in the NHL. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 20:54, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Since we are including Northern Ireland on the list, I included Faulkner as Newfoundland wasn't a Canadian province until 1949. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 21:45, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think we need to eliminate Northern Ireland all together as the list doesn't differentiate between Wales, Scotland, and England. Northern Ireland didn't exist until May 3, 1921. Without going into a history lesson, there were several dominions and states before that. If you are going to add Wales/Scotland/England, then Bobby Kirk was the first born while it was known as United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, as was Jack Riley and Sammy McManus. Jim McFadden was born under the Irish Republic, but that was an unrecognized state. Sid Finney then was the first born in Northern Ireland. No player was born in the Republic of Ireland. Patken4 (talk) 12:15, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, but only because the reference given: Sammy McManus doesn't support using "Norther Ireland", as it lists the player's birthplace as "Belfast, United Kingdom". If it said "Belfast, Northern Ireland" then it'd be a different story.
However, now that the article is in the mainspace, these sorts of discussions should really take place there. I'm going to copy this whole section to the talk page and then archive this section here.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 16:56, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If we're going to go by what the status of the country at the time the player was born, we probably shouldn't use the NHL's rules. For instance, Sid Finney's page says he was born in "Ireland". However, the town of Banbridge where he was born is in Northern Ireland, and he was born when it was called Northern Ireland. Owen Nolan's page says Belfast, United Kingdom, and Steve Thomas's page says Stockport, United Kingdom. So, if we aren't going to differentiate between England/Scotland/Wales under the UK, we shouldn't differentiate Northern Ireland either. If we do differentiate England/Scotland/Wales, then Bobby Kirk was the first born while it was known as Ireland and Sid Finney was the first born while it was called Northern Ireland. Also, we've had this discussion before, and it only caused problems. Personally, I would just leave it as United Kingdom, since all the players born on the island of Ireland were born while it was the UK or were born in Northern Ireland, and not even start the potential mess. Patken4 (talk) 19:11, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
My major concern with things like this, is that we'll end up creating situations that can be seen as us, as editors, making decisions on what's "true" or "correct". That's not our place as encyclopedia editors (see WP:OR and WP:V), and what's worse is that it can expose this article and some individual editors to charges of nationalistic POV issues. I just think that it's best all around to simply repeat what the sources say, regardless of whether or not we may agree with them (and that has the added benefit of being in line with policy, as well).
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 21:54, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's already been done in the list. According to NHL.com, Victor Nechayev and Val Hoffinger were both born in Russia, not the USSR and the Russian Empire. Udo Kiessling and Willie Huber were both born in Germany, not East and West Germany. Stan Smrke was born in Serbia, not Yugoslavia. Joe Hall, George Carey, and Wilf Cude were all born in the United Kingdom, not England, Scotland, and Wales.Patken4 (talk) 22:37, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It sounds as though you and I. at least, are in agreement. Where that leads I'm not real sure of, but I encourage you to go ahead and edit the list with all of this in mind.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 03:10, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The thing with Stan Smrke is that the HHOF says he was born in Belgrade, Yugoslavia. So that is referenced. They also say Udo Kiessling was born in East Germany. If that requires a reference, I can add that one. They also have Victor Nechayev as being born in the USSR. They also have Wilf Cude as being born in Wales. Joe Hall is being shown being born in England. I'm not sure if this is considered a reliable source, but Hockey Draft Central shows Willie Huber as being born in West Germany. So it appears all of those players can be referenced as each. This was the problem I had when creating this page. I tried to make it as NPOV as I possibly could, which is why I included the former countries. By including these former countries it eliminates any nationalistic POV that can be inferred. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 00:24, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

<outdent>I think the page is ready to be moved into the mainspace. So take a look and if it looks good and all, I will move it there. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 21:45, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just an FYI, I've moved it into the mainspace. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 02:18, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]


The inclusion of Bobby Kirk as the first NHL player from Ireland is problematic, because he never was born in a country named Ireland. His birthplace is Doagh, which at the time of his birth was in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland; today, it is in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Both of these are the United Kingdom. There is no justification for his inclusion in the list. If / when Northern Ireland decides to join the Republic of Ireland, then there might be an argument for it. I am removing the entry. Willa wonky (talk) 00:11, 27 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Taro[edit]

I was asked almost a week ago about my addition of Taro Tsujimoto (fictitious draft choice) to list as a footnote, which due to busyness, I haven't responded to yet. I see it's been removed -- I don't really care either way; it's more a piece of trivia than anything else. Maxim(talk) 02:50, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It was removed a shortly after I suggested that it was more appropriate to the proposed column listing the first player drafted from each country than the current tables. 174.119.19.211 (talk) 01:24, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Former Countries[edit]

Perhaps we should just have a separate listing for the Home Nations with a note explaining the unique circumstances? As it stands now, it appears as though, say, George Carey was actually born in the Kingdom of Scotland. I tend not to like pages like this because they invite semantics into things. Like, for example, there was no such nationality as Canadian until 1947... so should we technically classify all of those players whose careers (or even lives) ended before January 1, 1947 as having been British? In this case most of us would obviously say no, but then we have no problem handing players off to Nazi client states that the majority of the world never recognized. -- MichiganCharms (talk) 09:09, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The reason I included all these different former nations was in an effort to reduce anybody from crying a particular nationalistic POV. As an aside, there was a Canadian nationality before 1947, there was no Canadian citizenship. As I mentioned in the lead paragraph (which was cribbed and modified from the baseball list) "These players are not necessarily the first citizen of each respective country to play in the NHL, as nationality is determined under a nation's nationality law and may differ." Thus, since Scotland, England, Wales are considered to be nationalities, regardless of citizenship, there is no need, I don't think to add anything. Northern Ireland causes problems but not differentiating Northern Ireland from the Republic would ruffle feathers of some Irish segments. Plus, in the case of Scotland, after the referendum on independence, the example of Scotland may not make any difference.
As an aside, the reason that Stan Makita is shown as such, is that sources list him as having been born in the Slovak Republic. So regardless of whether the Political World recognized them, it appears that the hockey world does. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 00:48, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The "former countries" header is inaccurate for England, Scotland and Wales. They have been part of UK since 1707 (and Wales part of England since 1284) and no NHL player could have been born at that time. And Northern Ireland have never been a country by itself, thus not a "former country". 85.217.36.71 (talk) 00:45, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm trying to figure out how Vic Hoffinger, who was born in the Russian Empire, is the first player for Ukraine, but despite being a Russian national (possibly of German or Jewish descent?), he doesn't count for Russia - that goes to David Schriner, who played years after Hoffinger started.--Львівське (говорити) 06:55, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hoffinger was not born within the borders of modern day Russia, the Russian Empire included some (possibly most or all) of modern day Ukraine. See note 16 and 16 July 2011 comment above by Resolute. There is no Seltz, Russia, most likely he was born in Setz, Ukraine. FYI, I'm the same user as 174.119.19.211 and 99.246.179.122 above. 76.70.45.130 (talk) 22:29, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
FYI, Seltz Russian Empire is now Lymanske Ukraine, near Odessa.18abruce (talk) 22:35, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Why is England a "former country"? Why does Yugoslavia count twice? What's going on? /jackie chan meme --Львівське (говорити) 07:00, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Why England is a former country as that as a sovereign nation England no longer exists. It is a constituent part of the United Kingdom. With the Act of Union of 1707, England ceased to exist and became the United Kingdom. Thus prior to 1707 it was a country and it ceased to exist. Quite frankly, as noted in the development thread, I don't see why there is a need to split them out. However, in an effort to appease those who would attempt to split the home nations apart, they were listed as such. As for the Yugoslavias, I have no idea why they are split as two. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 00:59, 19 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In looking at the pages Wikilinked to the Yugoslavias, it would appear that technically they are two different countries. Likely, the user that split them apart did it in response to the Slovakia, Slovak Republic (1939-1945), Czechoslovakia splits. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 01:02, 19 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
And, while it certainly would be appropriate in football/soccer, in hockey they compete as Great Britain, not as home nations. They could be listed under United Kingdom or Great Britain (which one suits here best), and then under subsections. 85.217.34.67 (talk) 20:30, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nathan Walker[edit]

Despite the NHL's insistence that Nathan Walker is their first Australian player, he does not qualify for this list because this list is based on place of birth and he was born in Cardiff, Wales and moved to Sydney at Age 2. So do not add him. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 03:57, 8 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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