Talk:List of best-selling music artists

Eminem

this article as written has Eminem selling more records in the USA than anyone else. Ever. More than Michael, more than Elvis, more than the Beatles. I suspect three are plenty more errors. Xraygun (talk) 04:53, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

It's not an error – those are the total certified sales worldwide (not just in the USA). The switch from physical records to streaming has made it far easier to gain certifications than for artists from the pre-digital era. If you think Eminem's figures are not believable, you should take a look at Drake's certified sales further down the page... Richard3120 (talk) 15:32, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

BTS have sold over 100 million units

The Korean band BTS have sold well over 100 millions units and are currently the 41st highest selling musical act ever, but they're not even included in this article.

https://chartmasters.org/best-selling-artists-of-all-time/ Snidoodle (talk) 19:52, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Chartmasters is not considered a reliable source. Richard3120 (talk) 21:19, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Total certified units (from available markets) and Claimed sales

Hello, I want to help with this topic, have references from reputable media on music business and have reliable statistics on the lists that we can trust.

• What is the criteria for sorting sales lists by claimed sales instead of certified units?

Certified units come from reputable companies that can ensure that those units were sold according to their control methods.

• Do we have a list of specific websites and media that we accept as reputable media about total artist sales?

If we have that list, why we are not adhering to that websites and are using any website as a reference?

Another questions is: Why we have outdated references to websites in the lists?
Are we allowed to delete outdated references from the page as part of editing the article?

Examples of outdated references we should prune:

• Beyoncé Claimed sales 160 million [141] "How Beyonce conquered sportswear". Irish Independent. August 15, 2016.
• Taylor Swift Claimed sales 170 million [134] "5 most popular Instagram accounts". The New Zealand Herald. September 25, 2015.

The references quoted are a decade old and pertain to media unrelated to music. Moreover, these artists have achieved significant album sales in the years spanning from the article's publication to the present year. Paladium (talk) 12:59, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

The only official source we've had was the IFPI list from 2006, which is nearly 20 years old

>2006 - Eurovision - Best selling artists (IFPI list)

The Beatles - 400 Million

Michael Jackson - 350 Million

Elvis Presley - 300 Million

Madonna - 250 Million

[Edit]

However this was a long time ago, and is no longer accurate. The only other thing resembling a source is Chartmasters but it's wholly unreliable.

Generally media outlets will report sales given by the record companies or piggyback off of what's listed here in Wikipedia.

Occasionally publications will provide their own figures, but again those are just estimates from a single editor. We don't know who the best selling artists are, the only thing we know for certain is that Madonna is the 4th best selling artist, and Jackson, Elvis and the Beatles sold 500 million

(Never17 (talk) 22:15, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Madonna

Hi All: I am a bit confused about the claimed RIAA Sales for Madonna and what they are saying. The article cites a 86.5 number but the numbers from the organization are only at 65 million. The attached list also leaves out Garth Brooks, which according to their count is in the top grouping even without international numbers. DesertVulture (talk) 00:48, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed protected Edit Request on April 16 2024

After discussing with another editor, i would like to scrub some of the outdated references on the page. The Beatles claim of 600 million originated from 2008-2009. Here you can see for yourself. "the legendary Liverpudlians have sold more than 600 million albums worldwide, with various claims of over 1 billion records including singles, it has been piggybacked since then. This figure is complete nonsense and should be discarded.

The claimed sales of Michael Jackson (400 million) is also contradicted by the source currently used for the Beatles and Michael Jackson from the same year. Which states both acts had sold up to 500 million. Which goes back to using outdated references that are no longer needed on the page. The change that should be made is placing the claimed sales for The Beatles at 500 million, and removing the claim for 600 million, as well as Michael Jackson's outdated figure of 400 million'''

We have certified sales to dictate the order of who gets ranked where on this list and each of those three artists have been reportedly cited as the best selling artist of all time, Sticking each of the three firmly at 500 million is far more reliable.

Edit: I also think there should be a comprehensive overhaul for other acts with references over a decade old, who need to have their claimed sales updated as well.

Never17 (talk) 23:35, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Something we can do when updating the numbers is put the estimated sales at a number above the certified sales. It makes no sense to estimate N sales, when there are already N*2 certified sales. I think the certification is something we can trust.

Some of the current listed artists with this issue:

• Rihanna, total certified units 367.6 million, claimed sales 250 million.
• Eminem, total certified units 336.45 million, claimed sales 220 million.
• Taylor Swift, total certified units 290.2 million, claimed sales 200 million.
• Beyoncé, total certified units 245.3 million, claimed sales 200 million.
• Drake, total certified units 528.4 million, claimed sales 170 million.
• Kanye West, total certified units 287.3 million, claimed sales 160 million.

I think we should review and decrease certified sales (below the upper limit of estimated sales) or increase estimated sales above the number of units that have already been certified as sold. Because if that ones are certified, then the total is going to be higher than that whether it has been estimated or not. Paladium (talk) 19:28, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

In 2016, Rihanna’s claimed sales were 200 Million. Her certified units went up by 182 million since then

Taylor Swift at the time had 144m certified & 170m claimed. Her sales units went up by 140 million since then

Eminem had 121 million certified / 155 Million claimed. His certified sales have gone up by 215 million

Kanye had 100 Million claimed, since his sales have gone up by 166 Million

Beyonce had 75 million claimed, since her sales have gone up by 177 million

For Drake, Business Insider cites that he's currently sold just over 30 million albums in the US, he's gone up by 200 million with the majority of which coming from digital singles through streaming — Preceding unsigned comment added by Never17 (talk • contribs) 00:41, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

So Eminem, Rihanna, Taylor Swift should have claimed sales close to 300 million. While Beyonce & Kanye could be around 250 million

Edit: Apparently, 2009 there were no real sources for how much Elvis had sold outside his own estate, however his sales have gone up by just under 50 million since then and Reuters cites sales 500 million today. Meaning he would have sold 450 million at the time

The Beatles at the time also had 500 million in estimated sales, their certified sales have gone up by 60 million.

Michael Jackson was reported to have sold up to 400 million when he died, since 2009 his certified sales went up by over 140 million if you include the 25 million ringtone / dvd sales cited by NewYorker it’s +160 Million

Never17 (talk) 23:46, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree with that procedure. I think it's logical and not bogged down in old data like other media can be.

I only cited a few artists to make the list more manageable, so if this is done, we should put this criteria on the whole list. There are some more artists which for consistency, we would also have to rectify.

I think if people of a bigger consensus, like for example "Wikiproject Pop Music" or similar group agree on updating these lists could be an interesting thing to move forward these numbers and put them to date in 2024.

• How can we contact more relevant editors and Wikipedians to tell them if they agree with this idea and put updated data on the page?

Paladium (talk) 18:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I previously contacted @Salvabl:, we could try him. Not sure about other editors though, but maybe getting in touch with WikiProject Pop Music like you said would be a good idea. I would be glad to help manage the page. Never17 (talk) 18:31, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Messaged multiple different editors, i guess all we can do is wait Never17 (talk) 20:01, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

"we should review and decrease certified sales (below the upper limit of estimated sales) or increase estimated sales above the number of units that have already been certified as sold". I'm concerned by this statement, because if I've understood it correctly, neither of those things are possible. You can't decrease the number of certified sales, because that's a fact that can't be changed. And you can't increase the number of estimated sales to a figure that seems acceptable to you based on certified sales, because that would be original research. You're going to run into a lot of problems with other editors on Wikipedia if you try and do either of these two things. Richard3120 (talk) 02:13, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree, this conflict really only applies with active current day music artists due to streaming. Legacy acts don't have the amount of streaming needed for this to be a issue. Generally pure sales for artists today are reported on by the press, so editors shouldn't have much of a issue. Rihanna for example is cited as having sold 250 million records worldwide [1] , whereas Drake is cited as having sold 150 million in pure record sales. The number of album sales for Taylor Swift are 115 million, with the rest of her certified sales coming from streaming equivalent units. However i do understand his point as well if possible we should look into a updated figure for some of them. Never17 (talk) 03:56, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

An artist from the 20th century suffered a loss of millions in certification due to the absence of robust certifying bodies during their peak. Unlike today, where certifications are often automatic in many markets, they had to rely on a different system. Nowadays, certifications heavily weigh streaming numbers over actual sales. Take, for instance, Kanye West's album "The Life of Pablo," which attained Platinum status without a single sale, solely through streaming . Similarly, Taylor Swift's album "1989" has sold 6,472,000 copies as of Jan 2024 (including physical and digital downloads), yet it's certified 9× Platinum, equivalent to 9 million units as of 2017. This underscores the disparity between claimed sales and certifications for these new artists. TheWikiholic (talk) 06:32, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

You are correct, the issue regarding sales for new artists is very complex.. Not sure how we get around it. Never17 (talk) 16:45, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

It's a problem for old artists as well, because as I explained in a post above, no country in the world was recording complete sales before the 1990s, so estimates for artists like the Beatles, Elvis Presley and ABBA are complete guesswork... sure, you can get a pretty good idea of their sales in the US or the UK from shipments, but there will be no sales data at all for regions like South America or south-east Asia, and these are not insignificant markets. I appreciate that you are doing your very best to try and make this list as accurate as possible, but I personally try not to spend too much time on "best-selling worldwide" lists on Wikipedia because it's a lot of time and effort to try and maintain them and to find accurate information. Richard3120 (talk) 19:38, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm just trying to help so it's easier for editors to manage the page without any hassle Never17 (talk) 19:47, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I know you are, it really wasn't a criticism... more of a "good luck with the task ahead" comment. Richard3120 (talk) 20:58, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you Never17 (talk) 21:35, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Also, just so we don't have to go through this procedure again. Can you please grant me the Extended privileges? Never17 (talk) 00:10, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not an administrator, so I'm afraid I don't have that right, sorry. Richard3120 (talk) 02:27, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh well, it was worth asking i guess Never17 (talk) 02:45, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Hi, @Never17 and @Richard3120. Sorry for the misunderstanding on the certified sales topic. I abreviated a long explanation to avoid writing too much text and that caused the misunderstanding.

What I was saying is that "certified figures" are something official and "estimated figures" are something informal. An estimate as the word goes. At no point was I proposing to do original work, and I regret if it was understood that way. But check both the Wikipedia text with the estimated and certified figures and not assume that the editors of the article who came before us provided 100% true information or that they were not wrong in anything.

As part of this review, if we discover that we need to raise or lower the certified figures or the estimated figures, we will do so.

Of the many inconsistencies that the article seems to have, one of them is that the certified figures are updated and that the estimate of total units, which would have to exceed that figure, becomes below the number of certified units after being updated. And if we find one of these inconsistencies, we should review both the references of the certified figures and the estimated figures. It is much easier for the estimate to be the one that is outdated but we cannot rule out that it was either of the two options. All this providing references, not doing original work.

I hope this clarifies it. If you have more questions about my idea of updating this, write to me. Paladium (talk) 16:39, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Agree with this Never17 (talk) 18:09, 26 April 2024 (UTC)