Talk:List of Victoria Cross recipients of the Indian Army

Comments

Three recipients seem to have been overlooked:

• Alexander Cobbe
• Miles Ryan
• Sherbahadur Thapa

Could I suggest three categories the HEIC 1856-1858, the Indian Army from 1859 and civilians.

The Victoria Cross is a military decoration (there is a note on the “military decoration” article that it needs additional citations for verification.) suggest military be deleted since five civilians are listed in this table and the VC is open to civilians under military command.

It takes precedence over all other postnominals and medals The postnominal Bt or Bart precedes all orders, decorations and medals. eg Sir John Smyth Bt VC MC. suggest It takes precedence over all other orders, decorations and medals.

The VC is presented to the recipient by the British monarch during an investiture at Buckingham Palace. Only 48 of these 153 awards were presented by the monarch and only 25 of these 48 awards were presented at Buckingham Palace. suggest The VC is often presented to the recipient by the British monarch or prominent military or civil official. Although many of the awards for the Indian Mutiny were presented in India the details of whom, when and where the awards were presented is not known.

There have been a total of 150 VC recipients who were serving with an Indian Army or Honourable East India Company unit suggest There have been a total of 148 VC recipients who were serving with an Honourable East India Company or Indian Army or unit. All five civilian VC awards have been for gallantry under the military command of the Honourable East India Company or Indian Army.

64 VCs were awarded to Indian Army soldiers during the Indian rebellion of 1857 suggest 63 VCs were awarded to British officers and men of the HEIC during the Anglo Persian War 1856-1857 and the Indian rebellion of 1857

35 VCs were awarded for action in various campaigns between the rebellion in 1857 and the First World War. - suggest 33 awards.

29 in the Second World War. suggest 30 including Sherbahadur Thapa noted above

In addition there were five civilian VC awards under the military command of the Honourable East India Company or Indian Army.Anthony Staunton (talk) 14:24, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

3 additions, Lead tweaks I have reworded the Lead per your suggestions. In terms of new categories, that would distort the sortabiliy. If you want to add a new column, that would be viable I think and sortable. Regards. Woody (talk) 17:36, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the suggestions into consideration. I think you are right about new categories but perhaps the civilian awards should be indicated in some way.Anthony Staunton (talk) 14:48, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Query

On the same page, we have this article and the 'Indian winners of the VC'. Suggest these two should be combined in a 'one- stop shop' to make the distinctions clearer. Also, please note the further articles confined to winners of the two World Wars and unite them into one narrative (so, not much to ask, really...), possibly with a 'Minor Actions' article to complement.

Under the 'Indian winners' are several British names. Presumably winners IN India, rather than FROM India. The title of the whole page is "British Indian Army", and many of these names are not Indian Army, but British Army in India. Technically, they should be removed elsewhere. However, this is the obvious place for this article, so perhaps this page should be sub-divided to encompass two very different, but connected topics:

• the British military in India (the British Army in India and British officers in Indian Army regiments?)
• the Indian military at home and abroad (ie. to include non-Indian Army Indian units: eg. HKSRA, China Regt.(!)& other Hong Kong Sikh units).

Some headings that might be addressed:

• Winners of the VC during the Great Rebellion. (ie. British, as Indians were ineligible). (including the gazetted civilians!).
• Winners of the VC on the (NW) Frontier. (in practice, will be British again).
• Winners of the VC elewhere in India. (eg. Andamans).
• British VC/GC members of the Indian Army (as opposed to the British Army in India).

(particularly to contrast with the above 3 lists. This is particularly important for say the CWGC searches for WW1 & WW2

in which Seagrim, VC is listed a British soldier, but his brother is listed as an Indian (ie. because he was Indian Army). The wiki list would have a useful public service function, as well as its innate interest.

• Gurkha VC members of the Indian Army (being Nepali).
• Given that the Burma Campaign did not stop neatly at the Assam border, would suggest that this is also the place for articles on the Burma Rifles (technically not part of India after '37), but clearly part of the Army of India orbat.
• A short page on non-British military expatriates in India:

-Canada: half a dozen Japanese-Canadians were dropped into Burma.
-USA: Stilwell, Merrill, Doolittle survivors, the Hump transport aircrews, B-29 aircrews, etc.     
-French, Dutch & Thai staff of SOE in Meerut and the 'commando' training camps (this would have to include Ceylon [Kandy]
 for completeness, otherwise there would be a curious halt half-way through the campaign due solely to imperial administrative borders...).  

• Given the current political climate, would very much like to see a list of Moslem winners of the VC & GC, by way of balance.

 Most would be from areas now in Pakistan, but the list would include Hyderabad (the big one, not the Sindhi one!).  

• There are also many diaspora Sikhs in the UK and Canada, etc., and whilst India knows the Sikh contribution to the Indian Army, both of the Empire and of the current Republic (about twice the per capita pop.?), both Western Sikhs and Western non-Sikhs might find the results interesting.
• Personally, would like to see more 'depth' to the Indian VC/GC winners, in this vast country: eg. subdivided into Garhwalis, Punjabis (ie. irrespective of whether they would be former PM, Sikh or Hindu), Rajputs, Mahrattas, etc. Western readers might then recognise a Garhwali surname as easily as, say, Campbell, Hughes-Pryce and O'Leary.
• Finally, there must be a place for a footnote to include a non-Indian Army GC winner, who was Russian-born, half-American, French-resident (if not UK resident), a woman and a member of the British Air Force rather than RIAF or WAC(I),but definitely Indian in spirit: Nur (Noor)Inayat Khan? 89.243.212.225 (talk) 14:36, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm rather confused by your comments, where is this other list? Many of your other commetns don't seem to have direct relevance to this article, I'm not quite sure what you are trying to achieve. If you are asking for new articles to be created, you might be better at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject India, or relevant task forces of WP:MILHIST. David Underdown (talk) 14:51, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Clerical error

It appears there was a clerical error in the war despatches about the two VC winners from the 4th Gurkha Rifles - Rifleman Kulbir Thapa and Rifleman Karanbahadur Rana, both of 3rd/4th. Their unit was mistakenly shown as 4th/3rd, a battalion not in existence at that point of time. References to this can be found on both 3GR and 4GR sites mentioned below:

• http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/3rd_Queen_Alexandras_Own_Gurkha_Rifles/id/1901165
• http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyunits/gurkha/4thgurkhas.htm

Accordingly I have corrected the text. AshLin (talk) 03:50, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Investiture at Buckingham Palace

While the 'VC is traditionally presented to the recipient by the British monarch during an investiture at Buckingham Palace' that is not the case for HEIC amd Indian Army recipients. Just 24 of the 148 recipients received their award from the monarch at Buckingham Palace. None of the five civilian recipients were invested at Buckingham Palace. What is notable about presentations for the Indian Mutiny, is that for 48 of the 182 awards including 35 of the 61 awards to the HEIC, few details are known about the presentations. other than the year of presentation. The eleven posthumous VCs for the Indian Mutiny, including seven to the HEIC, were all sent to next of kin by registered post. Anthony Staunton (talk) 12:18, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

first recipients

correction on the old page. From Lastpost, p.19 and Crampton McKenzie, Eastern Epic vol. 1, p. 31, note 4 "Here, on 1st Ypres october/november 1914, the Baluchis of the 129th Duke of Connaught's Own, the first Indian contingent to be in contact with Germans at Hollebeke (and the only to inscribe 'Ypres 1914'),the sepoy Khudadad Khan maintaining the position until gravely wounded became the first Indian to win a Victoria Cross (Indians were eligible from 1911). In november, after a retreat, a scout section of the 1st Battalion 39th Garhwal Rifles under the leadership of Naik Darwan Singh Negi, then badly injured, reinvested lost trenches. For this part of gallantry he received the second VC. B(l 3 PP W (talk) 11:08, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

I added that Khudadad Khan's gallantry on 31 October 1914 was nearly a month earlier than Negi's gallantry on 24/25 November. Anthony Staunton (talk) 13:52, 1 May 2023 (UTC)