Talk:List of Crusades

Military history: Middle East / Medieval / Early Muslim / Crusades List‑class

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List

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	Middle Eastern military history task force
	Medieval warfare task force (c. 500 – c. 1500)
	Early Muslim military history task force (c. 600 – c. 1600)
	Crusades task force

Lead[edit]

The definition of crusades in the lead is deeply problematic. A century old definition from the Catholic Encyclopedia, alongside using the the Wisconsin series and Runciman do not reflect a meaningful definition used by modern academic crusade historians. The OED begins with 1.a.1577–Historical. A military expedition undertaken by the Christians of Europe in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries to recover the Holy Land from the Muslims. Its second definition is 1.b.1603–transferred. Any war instigated and blessed by the Church for alleged religious ends, a ‘holy war’; applied esp. to expeditions undertaken under papal sanction against infidels or heretics. The second definition is the one more commonly used by historians, although there is some blurring round the edges that enables the inclusion of the Popular Crusades. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 17:51, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Crusades defines this better: According to modern historiography the term "crusade" (/kruːˈseɪd/ kroo-SAYD) first referred to military expeditions undertaken by European Christians in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries to the Holy Land. The conflicts to which the term is applied has been extended to include other campaigns initiated, supported and sometimes directed by the Roman Catholic Church against pagans, heretics or for alleged religious ends. These differed from other Christian religious wars in that they were considered a penitential exercise, and so earned participants forgiveness for all confessed sins. What constituted a "crusade" has been understood in diverse ways, particularly regarding the early Crusades, and the definition remains a matter of debate among contemporary historians. The meaning of a "crusade" is generally viewed in one of four ways. Traditionalists view Crusades as only those to the Holy Land from 1095 to 1291. Pluralists view Crusades as military expeditions that enjoyed papal endorsement, including those to the Holy Land before and after 1291, to Northern Europe and Iberia, and against Christians. Popularists focus on the popular groundswells of religious fervour. Generalists focus on the basic phenomenon of Latin holy wars. Most modern Crusades historians consider a combination of pluralism and popularism. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 17:58, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Norfolkfish---Long time, no hear. Hope you are well. I agree the quote needs to go. It seemed like a good idea three years ago. Today, not so much. But, I think the proposed replacement is too long. And you know I don't buy the whole dichotomy there. But let's work something up. Dr. Grampinator (talk) 18:35, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hiya @Dr. Grampinator, all good here, I hope you are well. Agree on the dichotomy, Constable was only really indulging in debate. :-) Norfolkbigfish (talk) 19:15, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]