Talk:Lifechanyuan International Family Society

Recent Edits and WP:Neutral

I recently made a series of edits to this article, to reflect reliable sources for this article found by @Cunard. There was a lot of material that got cut because it was just a recitation, without footnotes, of doctrine from Xuefeng. In general, on Wikipedia, we do not rely on primary sources. I tried carefully to include some information about the move to Canada but without a secondary source it's not verifiable. All information added to articles on Wikipedia must be supported by a WP:reliable source

@Tongxincao based on our interactions at the AfD I think you need to seriously consider acknowledging a conflict of interest, and following the recommendations of WP:COI. That basically means you don't edit directly, but ask to have other editors make changes. If your goal is to re-insert a bunch of community doctrine I for one won't be inclined to add it. But if you think there are, for example, details about the commune from the NYT or Introvigne articles then feel free to suggest a change. Oblivy (talk) 09:06, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you again for your excellent work cleaning up the article, Oblivy (talk · contribs). I agree with your advice to Tongxincao. Regarding the group's move to Canada, the Introvigne article says on page 62: "En 2017, también en previsión de los próxi-mos 30 años de problemas, Xuefeng se trasladó a Canadá, donde tiene seguidores (existen otros grupos del Templo Zen de la Vida en Tailandia), y ordenó a las comunidades en China que pasaran a la clandestinidad. Esto ya era una señal de que el grupo, habiendo pasado del mercado rojo al gris, estaba cayendo lenta pero seguramente en el mercado negro. Esto se oficializó con la redada de 2021."

From Google Translate: "In 2017, also anticipating the next 30 years of trouble, Xuefeng moved to Canada, where he has followers (there are other Zen Temple of Life groups in Thailand), and ordered communities in China to move to the secrecy. This was already a sign that the group, having moved from the red market to the gray market, was slowly but surely falling into the black market. This was made official with the 2021 raid."

Cunard (talk) 09:13, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

That's good. I can add that. Thanks for your work on this too. As I said, it seemed like an article worth having but not in the form it was in. Oblivy (talk) 09:16, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

"Xuefeng fled to Canada, and those who could not follow him may be in hiding in China."

This is not true, Xuefeng went to Cananda in 2017, back then, the community had not been defined as a cult by Chinese government, so there was no reason for him to flee. Xuefeng went to Canada because he felt that China was not a right place to build an intentional community as he wished, therefore, he wanted to explore opportunities overseas. Those who could not follow him were not hiding in China; they were not criminals.

As a long-term member of Lifechanyuan, I know many facts, although they can't be found online or verified, but could I still suggest you edit the above sentence since the fact has been altered, many thanks. Conglong99 (talk) 06:52, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think saying fleeing and hiding implies they are criminals. Sometimes victims flee from attackers and sometimes they hide.

Anyway, this is the source: Esto, según la Seguridad Pública, no era el fin del Templo Zen de la Vida. Mantienen más de 2.000 miembros, la mayoría de ellos escondidos en algún lugar de China, y su líder vive a salvo en Canadá. La caza de la policía especializada para localizar a los devotos restantes en China continúa.

This, according to Public Security, was not the end of the Life Zen Temple. They maintain more than 2,000 members, most of them hidden somewhere in China, and their leader lives safely in Canada. The hunt by the specialist police agency to locate the remaining devotees in China continues. Oblivy (talk) 11:46, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Over at the AfD @Tongxincao said:

"Couples sleep apart" is not a correct and complete description, because there is no marriage and family in the new life mode of the Second Home, and couples are well prepared for this before they decided to join the community and live a collective community life. Therefore, each part of the original couple has their own bedroom, but they can sleep together when they feel like to do so. As an adult, everyone has their own bedroom as the space of his/her own. The reporter from New York Times visited us when we are encountering disbandment in the end of 2013, so they just stayed for several hours and did really quick interview with limited information being understand and collected.
I have mentioned several times all the sources being quoted here is limited and there is not a deep and complete report introducing what Lifechanyuan and the Second Home really is. Plus there are mistakes on time, date, and place, number of members around the world etc. So please delete this item as it is spreading wrong and one-sided information when using the world "fled to Canada", whatever the reason is, "fled" already shows the judgement of the editor here and this is not subjective description, but very objective description. We are from lifechanyuan and you raised the conflict of interest rule, so we cannot prove ourseles, but the edtion here definitely cannot represent what Lifechanyuan international family society is either. Please delete this edition to avoid the misunderstanding and mislead the public. Let them know, analysis, and judge by themselves, but not by you.

I'm not convinced "couples sleep apart" was incorrect based on your description but it's not that important to the article and I removed it. I've also removed the word fled as it does not literally appear in the source, even though it's objectively a good description of what happens when a group leader leaves China amidst a government crackdown.

Regarding the request to delete the article, I'm not sure your complaint amounts to anything more than that it doesn't present facts the way you remember them or wanted them presented. Searches of en.wikipedia.org and zh.wikipedia.org show your group's members have long been intent on getting an article on Wikipedia. Paraphrasing the guideline @Cunard quoted at the AfD, any article you write will get edited, perhaps into a form you wouldn't have chosen. Oblivy (talk) 06:00, 8 May 2024 (UTC)