Talk:Lebanese Aramaic
 | This article was nominated for deletion on 27 December 2023. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
What language/dialect is described here?[edit]
I am having a hard time understanding the topic and purpose of this article. Is the language/dialect in question (which is barely described) referring to a vernacular of Aramaic derived from Classical Syriac, or a local Neo-Aramaic dialect (not derived from Classical Syriac)? Other than this article (far from WP:RS), no other source is discussing this. I am actually not sure that even Amine Iskandar's article is referring to the same thing. Either way, I think this need some clarification. Shmayo (talk) 18:45, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- Hello, the topic of this article is the dialect of Aramaic that was historically spoken in Lebanon. The purpose of the article is educate and spread awareness about it. The dialect in question is the colloquial Aramaic dialect not derived from Classical Syriac, although it was influenced by it. I believe part of the confusion belongs to the fact that the native speakers called/call the language Syriac itself (or similar terms) while neo-Aramaic is mainly a modern scholarly term for extant Aramaic languages. As this dialect is extinct and mostly unknown about it never entered the scholarly field or terminology for the most part. Red Phoenician (talk) 13:33, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- Ok, thank you for an answer. Most of the article's content is about Classical Syriac however. I don't think there is enough to justify this article, as with some other contemporary Aramaic vernaculars that we do know very little about. What we do know is that there probably was a Western variant of Aramaic spoken in the area, which is mentioned in that article. The article's name is made up here. Shmayo (talk) 13:06, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
- Hello, I have amended the article name to a better one backed by sources. I think it is important to have an article about this language, even if it is not well documented, as other obscure languages such as Christian Palestinian Aramaic and Palmyrene Aramaic have articles and the point of Wikipedia is to expand knowledge so others can learn and possibly do more research about the language. The article does contain mentions of Classical Syriac however it would be hard to remove these references entirely as the two languages are so closely intertwined, similar to how the Lebanese Arabic page discusses the connections and differences that the Lebanese Arabic dialect has in relation to Modern Standard Arabic. Red Phoenician (talk) 08:19, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- Both Christian Palestinian Aramaic and Palmyrene Aramaic are documented and we do find them mentioned and discussed in Aramaic studies, even if the names are constructed. What I am able to find on this topic is that Aramaic (a dialect different from Syriac, that was later used in Lebanon) was spoken in Lebanon, and that it probably was Western Aramaic. Amine's articles is pure speculation and not a WP:RS. I don't this this article is justified and will probably propose a deletion. Shmayo (talk) 13:46, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- Hello, I have amended the article name to a better one backed by sources. I think it is important to have an article about this language, even if it is not well documented, as other obscure languages such as Christian Palestinian Aramaic and Palmyrene Aramaic have articles and the point of Wikipedia is to expand knowledge so others can learn and possibly do more research about the language. The article does contain mentions of Classical Syriac however it would be hard to remove these references entirely as the two languages are so closely intertwined, similar to how the Lebanese Arabic page discusses the connections and differences that the Lebanese Arabic dialect has in relation to Modern Standard Arabic. Red Phoenician (talk) 08:19, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- Ok, thank you for an answer. Most of the article's content is about Classical Syriac however. I don't think there is enough to justify this article, as with some other contemporary Aramaic vernaculars that we do know very little about. What we do know is that there probably was a Western variant of Aramaic spoken in the area, which is mentioned in that article. The article's name is made up here. Shmayo (talk) 13:06, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
Aramaic branches[edit]
The author of this article seems confused about the usage of Western Aramaic vs. Eastern Aramaic. Distinct linguistic features, rather than geography alone, define these branches. An Eastern Aramaic-derived language spoken in the western part of the Levant doesn't suddenly become Western Aramaic. Dr. Iskandar's discussion of Surien reflects Eastern Aramaic characteristics, contradicting sources claiming Western Aramaic in the article. This is why he explicitly mentions Surayt, Sureth, and Classical Syriac. Dr. Iskandar doesn't even mention the Maaloula dialect, which is clearly a Western Aramaic language. Maronites likely spoke various Aramaic dialects from different branches. Even within the Syriac Orthodox community, people speak various Aramaic dialects from different branches. Syriacs from Homs likely spoke Western Aramaic similar to Western Neo-Aramaic, those from Tur'Abdin still speak Central Neo-Aramaic, while Syriacs from Bakhdida speak Northeastern Neo-Aramaic. This could explain the confusion. If "Red Phoenecian" refers to a specific Aramaic dialect of the Western branch spoken by Maronites, please consider rewriting the whole article to avoid confusion.
"Al Kanfei Yonah. p. 40. The Western dialects preserved the distinction between malkin and malkayya 'kings : the kings', malkan : malkata 'queens : the queens'; but Eastern Aramaic knew only malké and malkata. The masculine plural -é is another distinctive feature of Eastern Aramaic. It may be the result of phonetic development or it may be due to the influence of Akkadian,…"
"Syriac Identity of Lebanon – part 4: Why is Spoken Lebanese a Syriac Dialect?". syriacpress.com. Retrieved 17 December 2023. The plural of the word in é, like ilono (a tree) becoming iloné in the plural form. This structure is still common in Lebanese. We can notice it in nationalities' names like Lébnéniyyé (Lebanese people) or Frenséwiyyé (French people). In Arabic it would be Loubnaniyyoun and Faransiyyoun…"
Western Neo-Aramaic: tūrA (sg) turO (pl)
hōnA (sg) hunO (pl)
Turoyo Neo-Aramaic: tūrO (sg) tūrōnE (pl)
ahūnO (sg) ahūnōnE (pl) 2A02:3031:202:FECC:A909:617:E648:F812 (talk) 13:05, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
- Hello, as previously stated neither of the sources that you provided explicitly state that Lebanese Aramaic is of the Eastern Aramaic variety (see WP:SYNTH). “Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source.” Unless you can provide a source that directly states that Lebanese Aramaic falls under the Eastern Aramaic variety your edits would be considered original research (See WP:OR). Red Phoenician (talk) 08:30, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
Vocabulary Section Questionable[edit]
To the best of my knowledge, none of the examples given in this section represent genuine survivals from an Aramaic or Phoenician substrate into Levantine Arabic.
Of the sources given, the only seemingly reputable source - a paper by one Ibrahim Bassal - is only cited superficially, as, though he provides examples of possible Aramaic vocabulary in specific domains, the examples provided do not reflect any discussion in his paper.
The examples given that are presented as Phoenician are transparently Arabic, as:
- Their phonology compared to cognates in other Semitic languages indicates inheritance from Proto-Semitic rather than Phoenician borrowing.
- Many of terms are found in multiple other registers and dialects of Arabic besides colloquial Levantine, and are not reflected in the corpus of known Phoenician vocabulary.
The examples presented as Aramaic range between:
- Extremely common words in Arabic and across Semitic languages (eg. 'beit')
- Transparently onomatopoeic (eg. 'wawa,' 'bobo')
- Displaying Arabic noun forms not present in Aramaic (eg. 'zuwaydah,' reflecting the diminutive ‘fuʿayl' pattern of the Arabic root z-y-d. To my knowledge there is no similar Aramaic root with a comparable meaning)
- Genuine Aramaic borrowings, though reflected in Classical as well as Modern registers of Arabic, as well as in geographically disparate Modern dialects, likely reflecting Aramaic borrowings into earlier Arabic (eg. 'taʿawwaq,' šlaḥ'). In each case there exists a doublet or cognate in Arabic with similar meaning whose phonology indicates direct descent from Proto-Semitic, while the examples given display characteristics of Aramaic phonological development ('ḍayyaq,' 'salaẖ').
- Words with origins in Greek that likely passed into Arabic via Aramaic, though reflected in geographically and temporally diverse dialects (eg. 'zūm')
- Phonologically very similar words present in both Arabic and Aramaic, whose use in Levantine Arabic semantically or morphologically reflects Aramaic usage, but is also found in geographically disparate dialects, making Aramaic influence less likely (eg. 'jawwa,' 'barra,' 'eimata')
Though the reliability of the other sources provided is incredibly suspect, there are known or plausible Aramaic survivals reflected only in Levantine Arabic or nearby dialects that are not mentioned in this section ('naṭar,' meaning "to wait," cognate with Arabic 'naẓar'; 'šqal,' meaning "to lift,"; 'zʿūr,' meaning "small (figuratively)," cognate with Arabic 'ṣaġīr'), in addition to the examples provided by Bassal. 104.255.178.136 (talk) 18:02, 18 March 2024 (UTC)