Talk:Kyiv strikes (2022–present)

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Kyiv strikes (2022–present) article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Military history: Aviation / European / Russian & Soviet / Post-Cold War Start‑class

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

Start

This article has been rated as Start-class on the project's quality scale.

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met Structure: criterion not met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion not met

Associated task forces:
/
	Military aviation task force
	European military history task force
	Russian, Soviet and CIS military history task force
	Post-Cold War task force

Russia: Military Low‑importance

	Russia portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Russian, Soviet, and CIS military history task force.

Ukraine Mid‑importance

	Ukraine portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ukraine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ukraine on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.UkraineWikipedia:WikiProject UkraineTemplate:WikiProject UkraineUkraine articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

On 1 June 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to 2022–2023 bombing of Kyiv. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

On 25 July 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Bombing of Kyiv (2022–present). The result of the discussion was Moved to Kyiv strikes (2022–present).

Merge 2023 Kyiv airstrikes[edit]

I disagree with having a separate article for the 16 May 2023 attacks on Kyiv. We cannot have pages for every single separate attack on every single Ukrainian major city. This article should serve as a catch-all for these events in the same function that other articles like 2022–2023 bombing of Odesa serve. Furthermore, that airstrike was not the only in 2023, so the title is ambiguous. Super Ψ Dro 08:41, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I wouldn't mind merging as the article's creator (and may do it myself). However, the article mentions some reasons of why the airstrikes were particularly outstanding among others. Brandmeister^talk 15:10, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know these airstrikes were remarkable because Ukraine downed for the first time all the russian missiles and drones. That and russian claims that they destroyed a Patriot system. I think these can be easily integrated into a wider article. Super Ψ Dro 14:28, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support as an improvement. (You mean turn this list into an article?) Reducing the atomization of this subject is positive, but both of these should be represented in or just merged into the parent article 2022–2023 Russian strikes against Ukrainian infrastructure, previously also named:

—Michael Z. 14:19, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My proposal was to merge both articles, that 16 May article into this list. Though I'd also support turning this list into the article format as done with other Ukrainian cities. I think the topic of the bombing of Kyiv is notable. In theory it should be more notable than the bombing of any other Ukrainian city like Odesa or Lviv which do have their own articles. Super Ψ Dro 14:28, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No argument that this wave attack was a notable one, or that it deserves its own article if coverage in RS supports it. My lament is that the only candidate for an umbrella article on Russian mass missile and drone attacks is not comprehensive. —Michael Z. 14:37, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I was suggesting a 2022–2023 bombing of Kyiv, not a 16 May 2023 Russian strikes against Ukrainian infrastructure. Super Ψ Dro 14:54, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That’s what I thought. Now clearer with the proposed title. (I meant that summary-style more-specific articles are still always fine when warranted, but they should all belong to summary umbrellas.) Thanks. —Michael Z. 15:09, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 1 June 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) – Material Works ping me! 23:17, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

List of attacks on Kyiv during the Russian invasion of Ukraine → 2022–2023 bombing of Kyiv – WP:CONSISTENT with 2022–2023 bombing of Lviv, 2022–2023 bombing of Odesa, 2022–2023 Dnipro missile strikes, 2022 bombing of Kryvyi Rih, etc.. Super Ψ Dro 10:40, 1 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 22:23, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose The word "bombing" may be misleading, bringing it alongside Bombing of Berlin in World War II, etc. - neither aviation bombs are used nor the process itself is regular. Rather, those are irregular attempts of inflicting havoc through missiles (ballistic and cruise ones) and kamikaze drones. Also, this may be better presented as a list rather than article . Brandmeister^talk 10:57, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
support per nom, missiles and exploding drones are still bombs—blindlynx 17:22, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The word "bomb" is meaningless for the defending and attacking purposes. To effectively intercept and destroy them, the air defense should know whether it's an aviation bomb, a ballistic missile, a cruise missile or a drone. A low-flying kamikaze drone can be destroyed by simple machine gun fire, a falling aviation bomb much less so. For what it's worth, the Russian Air Force never used bombers against Kyiv during the invasion. Brandmeister^talk 09:15, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your point, perhaps a new terminology should be applied to all of those kinds of articles. Considering however that this article marks the exception right now among its kind, including in its list format with which I disagree, I think the easiest way of improving the encyclopedia through this RM is establishing consistency. I am open to other suggestions using more appropriate wording, but this should not be kept like a list as no other article of this topic is one. Super Ψ Dro 18:15, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I can support something like 2022–2023 attacks on Kyiv or 2022–2023 airstrikes against Kyiv. But then, of course, more prose would be required to replace the current list format. Brandmeister^talk 18:58, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Attacks" would not be a good option due to the article Battle of Kyiv (2022) existing. No opinion regarding the use of "airstrikes". Still that proposal is closer to my proposed title than the current one, so I believe it could be said we're moving closer to a consensus to drop the current list format. I just realized that not all the articles of this kind use "bombing" anyway, though always the "2022–2023 whatever of city", so even if my proposed title ended up being adopted I would not be opposed to a new proposal shortly afterwards for dropping "bombing", if one is not attained here.

My point here is that this RM will probably lead to an improvement of the situation even if not the ideal outcome. Super Ψ Dro 23:42, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with the airstrikes option—blindlynx 23:13, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

They are not. In military parlance a bomb is an aerial gravity bomb or mortar bomb. It does not mean any explosive or any munition. A guided missile strike is not usually called a bombing.

The word strike is more commonly used to include artillery, aviation, rocket, missile, and drone strikes. —Michael Z. 20:04, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if "shelling" could be a more appropriate option. Super Ψ Dro 17:43, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 25 July 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Kyiv strikes (2022–present). (closed by non-admin page mover) — Mdaniels5757 (talk • contribs) 16:39, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

List of attacks on Kyiv during the Russian invasion of Ukraine → Bombing of Kyiv (2022–present) – To fix title format as other similar articles per WP:CONSISTENT. ALT title: Airstrikes on Kyiv (2022–present). Teterev53 (talk) 19:12, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Strong support "Bombing of *city*", strongly oppose "airstrikes on *city*". 90.255.19.247 (talk) 07:31, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support per WP:CONSISTENT. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 09:45, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Any or most of the strikes covered in this article were not bombing nor air strikes. The proposal does not serve the WP:CRITERION of precision. —Michael Z. 16:05, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Per your opinion, what wording is correct? It doesn't matter for me, bombing or airstrikes or something else. But all 12 similar articles from airstrikes category should have same title format per WP:CONSISTENT. Teterev53 (talk) 22:16, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per above and earlier discussion thread, "bombing" is not correct. The words "attacks", "strikes" or "airstrikes" are better. If "airstrikes" are not preferred, then simply "attacks" or "strikes" should do the job. Other similar articles that are not technically bombings may be moved accordingly. Brandmeister^talk 08:47, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Alt proposition: strikes[edit]

Rename to Kyiv strikes (2022–present). Ok or not? Teterev53 (talk) 00:07, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd be ok with that. Brandmeister^talk 12:09, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. —Michael Z. 17:01, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Merge Kyiv shopping centre bombing[edit]

I think we should further expand the article, making it similar to other articles on bombings in Ukraine, this includes changing the title and format, as well as merging this article into here, if anyone has an idea, feel free to post here. SnoopyBird (talk) 21:22, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]