Talk:Kiwi Farms

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 November 2023

This article makes a direct mention to a libelous claim and such in the title of source 21: "The online history of creator of she who shall not be named, who was charged with incest after leaked audio was posted online about mom". It should be removed because there is no point of not mentioning you know who if a source title makes an erroneous claim that goes against why they are not mentioned, it makes no sense at all how this has slid for months unnoticed as such. Doesn't matter where they were first noticed online, as that feeds the idea of sensationalism around you know who. Instead it should say just say they were first mentioned on online forums and remove the source because there is not point in letting it stay there because something which would be considered "trolling" is in the source text of this article.

It was suggested almost a year ago by a user who is now globally banned, that should be enough grounds to dispel the mention of a seriously libelous claim in the source text of this article. My suggestion is to remove the source and change "...harass a webcomic artist who was first noticed in 2007 on the Something Awful forums." to "...harass a webcomic artist who was first noticed in 2007 on various internet forums." That actually fits the bell better because without diving too deep into the topic which remains off-grounds for discussion, the subject had no real central place of discussion and various websites are among which individuals made note of their presence. 8ID (talk) 01:41, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

I feel like Chris could potentially get an article, but the only mainstream information from reliable sources that isn’t from somewhere like the CWCki (which is user generated and therefore against Wikipedia policy) is about Chris’ discovery and the incest charge. The article would probably be very focused on just that if it existed. CharlieEdited (talk) 23:50, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Edit-but-I-can’t-edit-so-it’s-a-reply: The page would probably get vandalized to oblivion. Nevermind. CharlieEdited (talk) 00:02, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

For the record, I've removed the name from your comment. The BLP rules do extend to the talk pages, in this particular case. ----Licks-rocks (talk) 11:25, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

I've reverted your redaction. She exists, we just do not (and likely will never) have an article on her. We should not pretend that she does not exist and/or her name is anathema. Primefac (talk) 13:24, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

My understanding was that she's not to be named on this page for harassment reasons, but I'll defer to your experience --Licks-rocks (talk) 16:17, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Right-wing politics

I've been seeing Kiwi Farms as a breeding ground for right-wing politics. This is evidenced by the following:

David Hill Jr. / Olivia Hill / MachineIV | Kiwi Farms (says "anarchist" in a negative tone, makes fun of his "SJW" status)

Stinkditch | Kiwi Farms (this lambasts transgender people for "their Ls online")

Social Justice Warriors | Kiwi Farms (shut down due to "feminist sperging")

ANTIFA / Antifascist Action / Antifaschistische Aktion | Kiwi Farms (they hate this group)

So, based on this, I say we ought to put this place as a right-wing community. ManOfDirt (talk) 19:18, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

See no original research. Are there reliable, secondary sources that call the site "a breeding ground for right-wing politics"? If not, then it shouldn't be added. Mind my conflict of interest, as usual. lizthegrey (talk) 21:29, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Research is research. This should simply be stated explicitly. ManOfDirt (talk) 01:07, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

That's not our policy here. We don't accept editors compiling their own primary research. Find a secondary source (doubtless there are some, if it's that obvious), or I guess you can try to make the WP:SKYBLUE argument but I suspect it won't fly. Here's a hint for you for inclusion rationale: the WP:MOTHERJONES article already cites says When journalists have covered Kiwi Farms, they’ve tended to label it a far-right forum, which is true but incomplete. Find the other sources that Mother Jones is referring to, and cite those. lizthegrey (talk) 01:11, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Misapplication of Le Monde article

This article by Le Monde is being used to argue that the site inherently targets far-right personalities based off of this paragraph:

Kiwi Farms is a discussion forum dedicated to online harassment. Its members – there are 16,000 daily logins according to its administrators – meet there to plan, organize and coordinate targeted harassment operations against Internet celebrities, mainly feminists or trans rights activists, people suffering from psychological problems, journalists, people from the world of video games or comics, and even some personalities from the American far right.

Yet a following sentence says:

Kiwi Farms was created in 2013, before taking its current name in 2014. Its creator, Joshua Moon, nicknamed "Null," is a former administrator of the unmoderated forum 8chan. This alternative to the 4chan forum is considered one of the most extremist, racist and hateful online forums. "Null created Kiwi Farms with the clear purpose of harassing an online comic book author, who had already been the subject of an intense harassment campaign on 4chan for several years.

Clearly, the idea that KiwiFarms goes out of its way to target "far-right individuals" wasn't intended by Le Monde. To anyone with knowledge of the terrain, this shouldn't be surprising, as infighting is remarkably common among groups such as this. It would be like saying that James Allsup "targets" far-right influencers such as Nick Fuentes because there was a falling out. This clearly shouldn't be stated without context in the article. KlayCax (talk) 17:23, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Tagging @Firefangledfeathers:, @Lizthegrey:, @ManOfDirt:. KlayCax (talk) 17:27, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by inherently. Our article currently states "It now hosts threads targeting many individuals, including ... far-right personalities". This is supported by the source. If there's a source that frames this as infighting, I would support adding that. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:27, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Hm. I'm seeing you've re-reverted saying that Le Monde supports the targeting of far-right individuals being infighting. Where are you seeing that in the source? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:29, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

The problem with the previous phrasing @Firefangledfeathers: is that it implies that KiwiFarms inherently goes after people that it sees as far-right. I think the citations clearly contradict this or at least don't support it. It's very common for far-right influencers, websites, and personalities to deeply dislike one another, so the SPLC + Le Monde articles shouldn't come as a surprise. In fact, Le Monde specifically notes that "even" and "some" far-right personalities have been targeted by it.

(Implying that this is not done to all or most.)

KiwiFarms has been alleged by some news organizations to be far-right itself. KlayCax (talk) 17:37, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how the previous phrasing implies that KF inherently goes after anybody. It just lists the types of people it has gone after. The site doesn't go after all or most of any of the groups listed. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:42, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

All the others are simply listed without any prefixes: (e.g. Feminists, mentally ill, internet celebrates, transgender rights activists, et al.)

In contrast, when it cites the fact that "far-right" personalities have been targeted by the group, it is always prefaced (in every article as well) with "some" or a "few" or what not. That seems to be talking about infighting.

Claiming that KiwiFarms isn't hard right on social issues — at least in the Western World — seems a bit disingenuous. KlayCax (talk) 17:46, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not claiming that, and I don't think the article was either. Would you be ok with restoring it as "and some far-right personalities"? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:48, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm okay with it being mentioned somewhere, @Firefangledfeathers:. However, I think additional context would be necessary if we decide to leave the statement in. KlayCax (talk) 17:50, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

What @Firefangledfeathers said. The current article text names accurately which groups the site has gone after. I think perhaps there is a false cognate here of "target" that can be used to mean both happening to "go after" opportunistically and "strategically pursuing". It may be worth trying to differentiate these. My understanding is that the site does not go out of its way to stalk far-right personalities unless they fall under its "drama" or "grift" sections, but does have an entire section devoted to finding and going after transgender folks. But, of course, the encyclopedia should follow what the secondary sourcing says and not my own quite possibly biased original research. (mind my conflict of interest as usual) lizthegrey (talk) 17:47, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I, mean. They've certainly have gone after far-right personalities. But mostly in the sense of finding them "hilarious" rather than targeting them on the basis of their position on LGBT rights, feminism, or anything like that.

Again, it would be like saying that James Allsup on Fash The Nation "targeted" ethnic nationalist personalities. It's technically true. Yet without context it becomes de facto misleading. KlayCax (talk) 17:49, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not disagreeing with you, let's find better wording then to differentiate "targeting" singular people, vs systematically "targeting" groups of people. lizthegrey (talk) 17:52, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

No, I'd be opposed to mentioning the far-right in this way regardless of the language; there's just not enough sources covering it as a meaningful way to characterize the site's activities. I think that when covering the infighting aspect, it would make more sense to look for sources covering it in-depth and to put that elsewhere as individual people who were targeted. In particular, the SPLC (which was used for this before) focused on two people: Nick Fuentes and another individual who was a previous member of the forum. We could just cover those individually (or perhaps just Fuentes, since the other one seems to fall under WP:BLP1E and may not be worth mentioning.) But using the SPLC to imply that they have "gone after" people on the far right, regardless of phrasing, is WP:SYNTH; we could just as easily say that they have "gone after" men, or people who eat meat, or people with dark hair. Lumping them into a category requires better sourcing, and I don't think Le Monde's passing mention is enough when we weigh it against the quality of sourcing for everything else. --Aquillion (talk) 19:02, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Persuasive enough, I'm with @Aquillion now given the WP:SYNTH argument. Fine to mention individual cases, but we cannot extrapolate a pattern. lizthegrey (talk) 19:06, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I think it would be more disingenuous to not mention the far-right personalities, because they most certainly do. I don't think this is a sourcing problem - sourcing for this article is going to be tricky, it always has been and probably always will be. We gotta use what we got. It's reasonable to say sources will focus on more "higher-profile" streamers who usually lean left, as far-right streamers are either not as popular or are banned for things usually associated wit the far-right (racism, anti-LGBTQ, etc). I think the Le Monde source is perfectly fine.

I don't doubt that Kiwi Farms has systemically targeted people who aren't far-right, especially those who are disenfranchised in one way or another, but there is a substantial amount of far-right personalities that have been targeted on the sites, too much for a list in my opinion, especially because we probably won't find a source claiming Kiwi Farms specifically targeted specifics such as Fuentes or Ethan Ralph or whatever.

I know WP:NOR, but a simple visit to the site confirms there are plenty of threads about far-right online personalities, some who's whole online identity is about being far-right. This supports the Le Monde source and I think the original wording is just fine. I'll concede that changing "targeted" to something else might be warranted. JungleEntity (talk) 19:58, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

• Yeah, I don't think that we should put far-right in that list - not in any context, not with any phrasing or wording. Le Monde says ...and even some personalities from the American far right which clearly treats it differently. Other sources don't emphasize it at all. And the difference in quality between the sources for this and everything else in the list is stark - every other point is cited to academic research and / or to in-depth coverage that extensively discusses how Kiwifarms systematically targets that group. This was previously cited in an WP:OR-ish way using two SPLC pieces, which was definitely unacceptable; without that we have brief one half-sentence in Le Monde, which is starkly WP:UNDUE relative to the other sources and has wording that sets that point besides. Based on current sources, I'd oppose any attempt to include it in any form. If it is worth including, we should be able to find sources with a weight at least somewhat more comparable to the other entries on the list. --Aquillion (talk) 19:02, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Is censoring you-know-who’s name really helpful, let alone necessary?

I know this is one of those perennial proposals that inevitably gets shot down as “READ THE FAQ”, but censoring “Voldemort”’s name is kind of ridiculous for the following reasons:

1. The article already discloses their initials and provides links that openly discuss their name

2. Everyone already knows who they are even if they’re not individually notable

3. They are not solely known because Kiwi Farms harassed them; contemporary readers probably know them best for their recent legal issues and for being the subject of a lengthy YouTube documentary series

5. There is very little organized harassment going on against them currently; in fact it’s actively discouraged by people who participated in the original campaign

Tl;dr we are not protecting anyone or doing anything useful by hiding the name of a well-known internet personality. Dronebogus (talk) 14:06, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

This person is still alive, is not a public figure, and has no source of notability outside of being harassed. (Youtube notability is not Wikipedia notability.) So I would be very skeptical of proposals to add their name to the article.

This is not to say that I couldn't ever be convinced, but it'd take some WP:EXTRAORDINARY sourcing. Sourcing that'd probably be sufficient to establish a whole article on them. Loki (talk) 18:24, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't mean to imply that these are your motives, Dronebogus, but the argument here does boil down to me as being "the harassment was so successful that we should allow it to continue on Wikipedia." I tend to agree that the possible harms are quite low. But for me, the benefit to the encyclopedia is nil. As such, the balance (for me, anyway) is an easy one. As ever, happy to go wherever consensus leads, but akin to Loki, I don't see myself as easily persuadable. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 19:50, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

That’s not really what I was arguing; my case was the harassment is almost entirely in the past, they’re widely known as part of internet popular culture (not to mention the fact that their legal problems were covered on national news), and the article dances around mentioning them in such a clumsy way it’s almost patronizing. I’m not arguing for any change in their notability status; I’m arguing it’s bizarre we’re going out of the way to symbolically “protect” the privacy of a well-known individual by not mentioning their name, once, in an appropriate context, in a largely unrelated article. Dronebogus (talk) 10:12, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Please no. Can we all find better things to do in life than talk about this all over again? 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 10:15, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

This is what I mean by “Inevitably gets shot down”. I don’t like it when old consensus gets treated as gospel even when there’s valid reasons to reconsider something. Dronebogus (talk) 15:12, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Dronebogus, I apologize for my clumsy wording. I know that's not your argument, and I don't doubt the good faith of your motives. But I do feel like it ends up being the practical upshot here. This person is notable only because of a harassment campaign. I see absolutely no benefit in using the name, but as ever, reasonable minds may differ. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 12:58, 5 May 2024 (UTC)