Talk:Kingdom of Candia

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Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus Timrollpickering (talk) 21:37, 14 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kingdom of Candia → Venetian Crete – Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:45, 4 August 2011 (UTC) to better reflect actual content: the present article is intended more as an overview article about the Venetian period of Cretan history, rather than the narrow political/administrative entity of the "Kingdom/Duchy of Candia". Constantine ✍ 11:57, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I support this and I don't want it moved without a discussion. Why can't the present title cover the territory and society under the political/administrative machinery of the "Kingdom/Duchy of Candia"? The title "Venetian Crete" seems somewhat vague and indefinite. Srnec (talk) 05:15, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Precisely because the present title is too definite, as well as merely a formal designation for a far more complex entity. The Venetian colony of Crete/Candia was labelled both a Duchy and a Kingdom at various times, the local ruler was not a king and not always a duke, etc. Whenever Venetian Crete is mentioned, the terms "Venetian-ruled Crete", "Venetian colony of Crete" etc are common, references to the "Regno di Candia" are rather scarce and limited to a technical context, like naming Venice "the Serenissima". Then there is the fact that the "Regno" as a term refers to the administrative machinery of the Venetian authorities exclusively, and is rarely used in regards to the enormous Venetian impact in the cultural, social, economic etc spheres. I wrote the present article as an attempt to cover the entire period, covering all the major aspects of Venetian rule over the island, not just the administrative/political aspects. Constantine ✍ 21:05, 2 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Does the term "Kingdom of Candia" (Regno di Candia) not apply to the entire period of Venetian rule in Crete? Srnec (talk) 21:19, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It does (some large-scale revolts like the Republic of St Titus excepted), but it is more of a formal administrative name for the island than anything else. "Ducado di Candia" was equally common, plus there was actually a duke in the island in the first centuries. But these are official terms, the common name then as now would be Candia/Crete, with some additional indication of Venetian rule over it. My point is, when one discusses the Cretan Renaissance, one speaks of Venetian Crete, not of the "Kingdom of Candia". BTW, after examining the Google Books results below, it appears there was also a "kingdom of Candia" in Sri Lanka. Constantine ✍ 09:04, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That would be the Kingdom of Kandy. But what's wrong with formal names? My problem with Venetian Crete is not that it is informal or that it is not used, or even that I wouldn't use it or understand it. My problem is its vagueness, like British India (see where that link goes!) or Italian Libya, which article now states in its opening line that it was established in 1934, but in the infobox supplies a date of 1911. There is currently a tag suggesting a merge from History of Libya as Italian colony. Anyways, I don't oppose the move, but I will monitor what becomes of the lead, and I do hope somebody else shows up to put in their two cents, for or against. I'd be interested to hear what others think. —Srnec (talk) 20:07, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In English:

"Venetian Crete" -Llc 336
"Kingdom of Candia" -Llc 116
"Venetian Candia" -Llc 50

In Italian:

"Regno di Candia" 392
"Ducato di Candia" 22
"Creta veneziana" 167
"Candia veneziana" 33

-- Takabeg (talk) 10:31, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My results are totally different. I get over 3,000 hits for each of Venetian Crete and Regno di Candia, suggesting an even greater difference in Italian and English usage than your searches and an even greater preponderance for those terms in their respective languages. Srnec (talk) 20:07, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support. There are no "my results". All of them are results of google books :) Maybe you want to said about maximum 3950 & minimum 336. It's important "to compare apples to apples". Takabeg (talk) 04:39, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the results do differ. When I click your links, the number of hits I get is different from the number you have beside the link. What is supposed to be the difference between the two newest links you provide? They are irrelevant to me if I can't tell why they're different. Of course, Google searches are largely irrelevant anyway. Srnec (talk) 05:01, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My results differ too when I click on the links provided, giving far more hits than indicated. Are you sure you're not behind any sort of firewall thing that's limiting your results, Takabeg? Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 23:03, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In case anyone's interested, when I click on the links the results I get are basically the same as Takabeg (out by only between 2 and 4 each time). Jenks24 (talk) 12:56, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The existing name accurately describes a good topic, worthy of an article, and it's a good if minimal article on that topic. Far better to expand the article with information from more sources, perhaps even creating articles on related topics, than to play around with this one. Andrewa (talk) 21:08, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- PS and what the searches above for Italian names were supposed to prove escapes me completely. The English ones are equally irrelevant, but the reasons are a lot more complex to analyse; See my argument above. Andrewa (talk) 21:17, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

flower of the Venetian colony of Candia[edit]

in the chapter: Uprisings of the Chortatzes brothers, you say in which the Duke of Crete, a ducal councillor, and the "flower of the Venetian colony of Candia" fell. what is the flower of the Venetian colony of Candia please?W5ry3 (talk) 21:03, 29 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]