Talk:Kindred: The Embraced

Relevance of the game

It might be my imagination, but in reading this page, I'm honestly wondering if anyone who has contributed to this page is at all familiar with the actual RPG on which the series was based. The show itself was written from a Ventrue point of view, but couldn't that at least be mentioned somewhere in here?

For starters: not all Brujah are criminals from a human standpoint and they're sure as Hell not at war with the Gangrel. Toreadors are most certainly NOT the most connected to the mortal world, and the Ventrue are definitely not the 'Brahmin' class of Kindred society.

In the series, the Brujah in San Francisco are at war with the Gangrel in San Francisco, the Brujah we meet are part of Fiori's operation (and we don't see them outside that context), and as I am familiar with both the show (which the article is about) and the game (1st, 2nd, Revised and Requiem), I think this article does an OK job of presenting the TV series. About as accurate as most other articles on WP. Oh, and the Toreador have been the most connected to the mortal world since the promotional releases of the First Edition. They lost some of that connection come Revised, but at that point so did all the clans. Zuiram 14:13, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Can whoever put this page up possibly read up on the game? There's a lot of source material available from WhiteWolf. Please? For the sake of those who watched this show because they're Masquerade gamers, if nothing else. Or, if you don't want to put the work into it, at least use the links to redirect the reader to the pages about the game and leave the explanations off? The people who wrote the game pages actually had the freakin' books in their hands, for cryin' out loud.

Dude, calm down. The page needs some adjustment, sure, and probably in the next few days I'll take a crack at it. But one thing to remember is that the show itself is hardly loyal to Vampire: the Masquerade canon (I might even put in a section explaining this). The Brahmin reference is a bit over the top, sure, and the term 'Camarilla' is never even used on the show unless I missed it somewhere. But all of the Brujah depicted in the series are violent gangsters.

I'll fix a few things that need fixing, but the article doesn't have to be true to the game line. It has to be accurate, though, in terms of the show, because there are people who may be fans of the show but not the RPG. I personally think including material taken from the games that has no bearing on the show goes outside the bounds of the article, and maybe a list of "differences from the game" aside the article should be rewritten to accomodate this.--MythicFox 10:39, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

The show is not based on the Vampire: the Masquerade role playing game at all. Like the RPG, it is based on the novel by Mark Rein-Hagen. So, yes, he needs to calm down.

That said, there is a lot of stuff in the article that isn't quite right. For one thing, the series was never finished; the death of Mr. Frankel lead to the show being cancelled, as it would be hard to find a way to credibly replace the Prince without the series getting too complicated for the average, non-VtM-familiar viewer.

Also, as I recall, the other clans were supposed to be introduced, eventually, at least some of them, but as with any series, there is a limited amount of exposition you can do per episode, and a unfamiliar element cannot remain unexplained for long. Hence, presenting a handful of stereotyped characters from a few clans at first, getting the soap going and familiarizing people with the setting. This doesn't conflict with the setting: it is not uncommon for a large segment of the population of a given clan in a city to be related, and for the head of that segment to have a fairly large amount of power over those vampires. Such a vampire would be a prime contender for the Primogen position for their clan. Hence, they're violent gangsters because that is Fiori's way of doing business, and they answer to his authority as Primogen for the Brujah.

The Brahmin reference makes no sense here; the setting is not particularly Indian or Hindu influenced, and this is the English WP, so assuming familiarity with the concept seems counterproductive.

As for the scope of the article, I agree. Make the article cover the TV series, make a note of it being derived from the novel, and that an RPG has also been derived from the novel. Keep the stuff that's not relevant to the show out. Zuiram 14:13, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I would be willing to do a write-up of the major differences between the show and the RPG. There are quite a few, but there are a few more outstanding differences that really stand out. Those being:

• Kindred could walk in the daylight if they recently fed in the show; in the game they would die within a few minutes of exposure.

• The Gangrel of the show are actually more in line with the Brujah of the game, or at least the stereotypical anarchist Brujah; and the Brujah of the show are really just more violent versions of the Ventrue or Toreador or a mix of them with more violent tendencies.

• Even the most good looking Nosferatu is still horribly ugly; the show portrays them as only slightly unsettling compared to the normalcy of the other Kindred in relation to humans, with the exception of the one Nosferatu villain, who is more unsettling than the others (though still not downright ugly).

• Older Kindred show more ties with humanity and the feelings/emotions of humanity than they rightly should. The older a Kindred gets, the further from humanity they fall, no matter how hard they try-- some of these Kindred are near or over 300 years old. Of the show's main Kindred, only Sasha would be at the mercy of these emotions readily, as she is Embraced only very recently. The others would have either lost them due to losing their humanity to the Beast over time, or suppressed them considerably which has the same effect of losing your humanity to the Beast.

• San Fransisco would not be a Camarilla city at the time of the show's production, being in California. At best it would be a holding of the Anarch Free States, and at worst a Sabbat holding. The Camarilla's main holdings were on the East Coast (with the exception of NYC) and out to around the Mississippi River, with the rest of the country belonging to the Sabbat or the Anarchs, effectively.

There are obviously many other smaller changes, but these are the big changes with the exception of not mentioning if using certain powers took blood to use or not.UncleThursday 10:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Canon SF shortly after the timeframe of the show according to V:tM. It has always been a camarilla stronghold on the west coast. Julian Luna is suppose to be Vennevar Thomas, they changed it to Julian Luna in the show. The following is canon, it doesn't cover what exactly happens during the reign of Vannevar, but only that it was under his rule, and he is indeed part of the Camarilla. You can also see that the conclave of the show contradicts the clans that would have been in San Francisco at the time. While Ventrue/Toredor is accurate, there would not have been many Gangrel or Brujah (The Brujah would have been found accross the bay in Oakland if memory serves me right.)

Prince - Jochen Van Nuys, Clan Ventrue

Justicar - Madame Guil, Clan Toreador

Archons - Vidal Jaubeaux, Clan Toreador, Danny Larkskil, Follower of Set

Prince Vannevar Thomas is dead. The Anarch Free State is dead. The Kuei-Jin are here to stay. Could anything be worse in San Francisco for the Kindred of the domain? Now the unknown Jochen Van Nuys of Clan Ventrue rules San Francisco, much to the Ancillae's delight, despite the presence of the infamous and viscious Toreador Justicar, Madame Guil. With the fall of the Anarch Free State, ther has been a huge influx of former Anarchs, those who had worked against the Camarilla. Now they seek the sects protection. Van Nuys has welcomed them with open arms. This makes the Justicar's presence in his domain more than a little unnerving, and it makes him very cautious in dealing with those Anarchs he does allow in. After all, the Free States are still fresh in his memory.

The Kuei-Jin of the New Promise Mandernate have also settled themselves in San Francisco, a silent and brooding presence that is never far from Van Nuys's mind. There is a treaty between the two, despite the efforts of the Sabbat, and for now all is eerily quite between the two groups. Guil's presence in the city is to ostensibly work with the Kuei-Jin leaders. Yet many in the domain fear that San Francisco is just a powder keg under all these immortals, just waiting for someone to light the fuse and blow them all to hell.

To make matters worse, Lupines have been taking the cities confusion as an oppurtunity to raid, slaughter, and intimidate the vampires of San Francisco. Regent Cohn Rose and the Tremere have been having frequent problems with Lupines, yet Van Nuys has been to preoccupied to aid. Unless actions are taken against them, the Lupines will get bolder and bolder, adding yet another level of danger.

-Tetsuru

213.114.169.14 (talk) 18:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Added differences between show and game

I added a section on the differences between the show and the game. I listed only some of the major differences between them, and didn't go into the whole Anarch Free States or Sabbat territory as I;d have to really dig out some of my source books for that information. Please let me know if you need me to add page references from Vampire: The Masquerade Revised Edition (3rd edition) for my comments on the Clans.UncleThursday 07:22, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I've only seen the first two episodes of the show but I've noticed some differences from the game that aren't on the list. The Kindred on the show have a law against killing humans in order to preserve the Masquerade. The Kindred in the game have no such law. The Kindred in the game are able to turn humans into ghouls by making them drink their blood. But in the show, Luna explains that the Kindred do not have mortals doing their bidding but instead have Kindred in all levels of society. As I've said I've only started watching the show so I don't know how true this will turn out to be, so I haven't added it yet. 218.215.137.90 00:21, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the Masquerade doesn't specifically forbid the killing of kine by the Kindred, but it does dissuade it in the game. Too many unexplainable deaths by exsanguination with little to no visible means as to how the blood was drained would eventually lead to a breach of the Masquerade. It is for this reason many players are advised to take the herd background, which consist of kine they feed from regularly (whether the kine know they are being used as food is up to the players and the storyteller... some herd members actually like being fed from due to the ecstasy of the feeling of the Kiss). Obviously, killing a herd member would reduce the availability of vitae that a particular Kindred would have easy (relatively) access to. Remember, Kindred can seal the wounds they make on living beings by licking them, to hide the fang marks, mostly, and help preserve the Masquerade. As for the ghouls, well, they was probably not really put in to keep the show more accessible to those unfamiliar with the source material from wondering how the Kindred got on in day to day life. It was possibly decided that instead of Kindred being able to control kine, that they would instead just have their own in areas of influence and/or positions where they could easily cover up or hide incidents involving Kindred... this is probably easier for the show's watchers who are not familiar with the source material, and generally easier to write for in the terms of writing a television show. However, the maine mortal policeman is considered to be a ghoul, as he drank some of the blonde's blood, and she mentions it changing him... I can't find my DVDs right now, however, to see if she actually calls it becoming a ghoul, however; and I don't remember it from the top of my head.UncleThursday 20:59, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Ravnos and Gangrel don't descend from the same Antedeluvian (ravnos' one are Dracian also known as Zapatasura, and the gangrel's one are Ennoia) and they aren't Allied, they are frequently enemies!

Ravnos are more Indian than Gypsy and a Gangrel can descends from Gypsies. By eXiS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.208.106.74 (talk) 02:11, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I removed some rubbish in the Ventrue Clan description where one is asked to "think Dracula", it is true that Ventrue tend to take on positions as leaders, but since Dracula has very little to do with the Ventrue Clan, I say lets keep it that way.

/Nefi 2008-02-02

We don't care about all that. The show is not about the game. Gaming terms can be excluded from this page and brought back to the WWGS forum discussion it came from. Fetternity (talk) 09:14, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Game vs. Show

This is an article on the tv show. It seems that over a third of the whole article and the entirety of the Talk page is devoted to the game. I think it could be improved by trimming the point-by-point refrences to the game in the article into broader comments. I removed lots of talk about game mechanics that belong in other articles.BoosterBronze (talk) 19:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Someone added an absolute shit-ton of other differences between the show and the game some time after I added the initial list. Looking back, even my initial list was a bit long, but some of the added stuff was just not needed, and definitely wasn't neutral in its terminology at points. UncleThursday (talk) 12:35, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I've gone back through and fixed a few bits of the 'differences between show and game' section, cleaning up some of the way-too-casual tone and taking out a couple of the references. Particularly:

Certain Clans are portrayed in ways that are contradictory to the role-playing game. The Malkavian and Tremere clans are totally absent from the series. In a sequel to the game, however, the Malkavians decided it was time to disappear, and this could be a reason for their exclusion in the series.

(Emphasis mine)
What 'sequel' was the writer talking about? Was there a 'Vampire: the Masquerade 2: Electric Boogaloo' that I don't know about? Also, I've removed the section discussing loss of humanity, reproduced here for the sake of discussion:

In the television show, the Kindred seem to still cling to their humanity, no matter how old they are; with the only exception being a Nosferatu in one episode and a Gangrel in another. In the role-playing game, all Kindred, no matter how hard they try, begin to lose their humanity as time passes.

This is a really difficult one to casually include. There are many examples of vampires in the game who have maintained their Humanity. Sometimes it takes effort to do so, and sometimes it does not. Either way, you can't reliably say 'all Kindred begin to lose their humanity' and even if you could it really isn't to the degree that it could be called a difference between the show and the game. Besides, while many of the characters still maintain an outward appearance of humanity, we honestly have little way of determining which ones mean it and which ones are 'going through the motions.' (The only clear example would be Julian Luna, who attempts to keep from violating his conscience and maintains ties to normal humans beyond all sense of logic and reason.)
I've also heavily edited the section regarding the 'Primogen living with the Prince' thing, as while it is an interesting detail to describe the actual writing seems really tacked-on. Especially when you're actually starting a sentence with 'Sometimes yes' and using terms like 'Camarilla Court Coterie,' which isn't going to make sense in this sort of context, as it's not even a common expression in the game.--MythicFox (talk) 13:10, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Keeping the game and the show separate

I know this is just kind of a recurring 'thing' for this article, but I'm wondering how far we should go to make sure the article is about the TV show Kindred: The Embraced and not about the Vampire: The Masquerade roleplaying game. Yes, it's based on it so that should factor in. But I think we should strive to avoid simply copypasting material related to the game that is not mentioned at all on the show. However, the point of Wikipedia is not just for one guy to do this, especially since I'm having trouble finding my copies of the DVDs and can't do research on some of the finer points. Anyone interested in helping me out on this front? One thing that gets me is the history section in the show's article. I don't want to just go in and edit it one or two words at a time, but some of it is obviously taken from some other source wholecloth as it references the Camarilla (which is not mentioned on the show by name, to my recollection) and seven clans of Kindred when the show only has five and one member of a sixth. Stuff like that. Also, I think the sire of the serial killer vampire in one episode (the one that fanon would suggest is a Malkavian) is actually identified as a Gangrel, but don't quote me on that. Stuff like that. I can't check it all myself right at this point, so who's with me in helping to make this an article about the show and leave comparisons to the game to their own designated subsection?--MythicFox (talk) 02:34, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. The level of fanboyism on this page (talk and article) is just beyond reasonable AND decent. I strongly encourage people to cut back a bit here. This is a bout a TV series. Moves and TV series are never like the source material, nor should they be. I recommend fanboys look elsewhere rather than using this page to vent their disappointment about a vampire series cross-bred with Melrose Place.Fetternity (talk) 09:09, 8 July 2008 (UTC)