Talk:Keszthely culture

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Pannonian Romance redirect[edit]

Pannonian Romance (language) redirects to this page. There are refs/links to Pannonian Romance within this page (circular now), suggesting there was once a page with some detail about the language. Is this redirect appropriate? Is the information from the original page (I don't know how to conjure old pages up) included in the Language section here? Cellmaker (talk) 15:39, 3 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Cellmaker I don't think so either. The deletion discussion did not really have a majority of users or arguments supporting such a move but was closed as "Move to History of Romanian" (see here it had survived an earlier deletion discussion in 2007 before that) -- although that is not what happened anyways (and I would oppose that happening). I don't particularly want to dig up old bones at the moment, so I simply restored a lot of the RS info that was deleted in the move and figured that's the best solution for now. -- Calthinus (talk) 18:10, 29 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Rewrite the Article[edit]

I will continue to rewrite the article, backed up by sources CriticKende (talk) 23:47, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have just read another very comprehensive study, which I will include in the article in the coming days. I will continue to expand the article with archaeological/historical sources. CriticKende (talk) 01:19, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Language change[edit]

Thus the language of the culture in the first period was Germanic.

So presumably the language may have changed and become Avar.

Are both of these statements in the sources cited or are they inferences by an editor? Srnec (talk) 23:13, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, obviously not literally, because that's not allowed on wiki, but it's written that the population was first Germanic, and then predominantly Avar. (According to archeological finds) CriticKende (talk) 10:05, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, I put the source in the article you sent. CriticKende (talk) 11:45, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by "not literally"?

Tivadar Vida, "Conflict and coexistence: the local population of the Carpathian Basin under Avar rule (sixth to seventh century)", The Other Europe in the Middle Ages: Avars, Bulgars, Khazars, and Cumans (Brill, 2008), writes that There is so far no other better explanation for the rich and sophisticated “Keszthely culture” of the Early Avar age than to assume the continuity of the local Roman population. I don't think this is an obsolete theory. Srnec (talk) 19:25, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You can take it from there if you really want to, but it's not in the museum and in most of the new works on the subject, or in the analysis of the excavations. So there is one historian out of about 10 who have researched the subject recently who thinks so, and the absolute majority do not. I don't think it's worth putting in all the theories that 99% of researchers don't admit anymore, because then you would have to put in the Hungarian, Slavic, Greek, Albanian, Khazar, Szekler, and Normann theories. And I also found a source for the Hungarian theory, but I didn't put it in, because I think the goal is to provide credible information, not to put in every theory that is supported by 1 person.

And I think it's worth emailing the museum, too, to see why the archaeologists and the museum in Keszthely also consider the theory outdated.

Also note that your source is from 2008, mine is from 2020 (partly) so 12 years wentpast during the two research, I think things may change, and your source only partially touches on this, and this is not what Tivadar primarily researched, while several of my sources do, and even participated in the excavations.

I hope together we can write a good article here. :) CriticKende (talk) 19:59, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Srnec, @CriticKende,

I checked at the moment only the source what Srnec provided. [1] Here I can read about the post-Roman period and re-use of standing Roman buildings OrionNimrod (talk) 09:23, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mixed population[edit]

Hi @CriticKende

The source cited says:

"A survey of the complete corpus of finds strongly suggests that the population living in and around the Keszthely-Fenékpuszta fort in the Early Avar period was made up of Christian communities with a mixed background, which can be easily distinguished from the other early Avar groups in Transdanubia."

Where does it say Germanic? Aristeus01 (talk) 11:27, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, mixed Germanic population CriticKende (talk) 12:04, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Where does it say? Aristeus01 (talk) 12:17, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The text says that this was a Germanic population. CriticKende (talk) 16:18, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Where in the text exactly? Aristeus01 (talk) 16:31, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I'll send you some examples from the indicated source (Müller, Róbert (2020). A Keszthely-Kultúra Ma [The Keszthely-Culture Today].)

Page 199:

Hungarian: "E természettudományos eredmények legjobb interpretációja a régészeti leletek tükrében az, ha feltételezzük, hogy egyrészt van e temetőknek egy olyan komponense, mely miután leletanyagában egyaránt tartalmaz az 568 előtti pannóniai anyagban teljesen ismeretlen női ékszereket (egyedi kisfibulák- és brossok, kosaras fülbevalók, melltűk. gyűrűk, karperecek), férfi övgarnitúrákat, valamint díszítési technikákat (második germán állatstílus, pont-vonal motívum), az csakis 568 után valamilyen módon a Dunántúlra került langobard közösségként értelmezhető."

English Translation: "The best interpretation of these naturalistic results in the light of the archaeological finds is to assume that, on the one hand, there is a component of these cemeteries which, having contained in its archaeological material both a female cemetery which is completely unknown in pre-568 Pannonian material jewellery (individual small brooches and brooches, basket earrings, brooches, rings, bracelets), male belt sets and decorative techniques (second Germanic animal style, dotted-line motif), can only be interpreted as a Lombard community that was somehow introduced to the Danube region after 568."

Page 202:

Hungarian: "E viseleti szokás a 6. századi Kárpát-medence germán népeinél részben langobard etnikumjelzőnek tekinthető, melynek megléte valamennyi előkelőbb langobard női temetkezés esetében elvárható, amennyiben azt a sírrablók megkímélték"

English: "This costume can be regarded as a partial Langobard ethnic marker among the Germanic peoples of the 6th century Carpathian Basin, and its presence can be expected in all the more prominent Langobard female burials, provided that it was spared by the grave robbers."

Page 202:

Hungarian: "Ráadásul a sasfibula kampós csőrének megfogalmazásában a második germán állatstílus egyik jellegzetes eleme köszön vissza,"

English: "In addition, the hooked beak of the eagle fibula recalls a characteristic element of the second Germanic animal style..."

Page 202:

Hungarian: "A horreumi sírok - és más Keszthely-kultúrás temetők további - kisfibulái tehát nem a helyben talált dunántúli langobard temetők kifosztásával kerültek a Keszthely-kultúra népességének birtokába (MÜLLER 1996a, 99),' hanem azt maguk hozták egy olyan germán - párhuzamaik alapján joggal mondhatjuk, langobard - környezetből, ahol azok ilyetén módon való viselete közvetlenül a korongfibulák feltűnését megélőző, illetve azt átfedő időszak emlékei, mégpedig a 6-7. század fordulójáról. "

English: "The small fibulae of the Horreum graves - and of other Keszthely-culture cemeteries - were not brought into the possession of the Keszthely-culture population by the looting of the local Langobard cemeteries (MÜLLER 1996a, 99), but were brought by the Keszthely-culture population themselves, from a Germanic - and we can rightly say so on the basis of their parallels, langobard - environment, where their wearing in this way is a direct reminder of the period which witnessed the appearance of the disc fibulae and overlapped with it, namely from the turn of the 6th and 7th centuries. "

Page 203:

Hungarian: "Mindezek értelmében már kevésbé meglepő, hogy antropológiai anyaga alapján mindkét vizsgálható horreumi fülbevalós sír az első szerológiai csoportba tartozik. így azok a fenékpusztai kosaras függők, melyeket a hazai szakirodalom Garam Évának a kora avar kori ékszerek bizánci kapcsolatait tárgyaló alapos munkái nyomán előszeretettel tart eredeti bizánci készítményeknek, teljes leletösszefüggéseiket tekintve is inkább mutatnak langobard kapcsolatokat, mintsem bizáncit. "

English: "In view of all this, it is less surprising that the anthropological material of both Horreum earring tombs under examination belongs to the first serological group.Thus, the basket pendants from Fenékpuszta, which the Hungarian literature, following the thorough work of Eva Garam on the Byzantine connections of Early Byzantine jewellery, prefers to consider as original Byzantine products, show more Lombard connections than Byzantine ones, even in their overall context. "

Page 203:

Hungarian: "Csák Árpád a Keszthely-Dobogón 1898-ban feltárt hatvannégy sír egyikében egy olyan kőbetétes. kétségtelenül 7. századi, nyugati germán típusú bronz korongfibulát talált (KUZSINSZKY 1920, 146. ábra), mely példány meroving megfelelői közismertek (THIEME 1978. 418-420), ami így a fenékpusztai ékköves darabok germán kapcsolataihoz újabb támpontot szolgáltat."

English: "Árpád Csák in one of the sixty-four graves excavated on the Keszthely-Dobogo in 1898 has such a stone inlay. undoubtedly found a bronze disc fibula of the 7th century, West Germanic type (KUZSINSZKY 1920, fig. 146), whose Merovingian equivalents are well known (THIEME 1978. 418-420), which thus provides another clue to the Germanic connections of the jeweled pieces from Fenékpuszta."

Page 204:

Hungarian: "Az pedig, hogy a gyermekek veretes övvel való eltemetése nem tűnik általános avar szokásnak (SIMON 1983,58), a 15. sír kapcsán ismét csak a germánok felé irányítja a figyelmet, ahol is a meroving korban e rítus gyakoribbnak tűnik (SCHWAB 1982). Végezetül a sír üvegpoharának (BARKÓCZI 1968, Pl. LXVIII. 6) rendkívül nagyszámú, s szinte kizárólag csak észak- és közép-itáliából ismert analógiái (KISS 1996, Liste 47) szintén azt a hipotézis támasztják alá, hogy nemcsak a kb. ötévesen elhunyt kisfiú lehetett biztosan langobard származású, hanem a sírjába helyezett övgarnitúra is nyugatról származhatott. "

English: "The fact that the burial of children with a beaten belt does not seem to be a general Avar custom (SIMON 1983,58), again directs attention to the Germanic period, where this rite seems to be more common in the Merovingian period (SCHWAB 1982). Finally, the extremely large number of analogues of the glass beaker (BARKÓCZI 1968, Pl. LXVIII. 6), known almost exclusively from northern and central Italy (KISS 1996, Liste 47), also support the hypothesis that not only the boy who died at the age of about five could certainly have been of Lombard origin, but also the belt set placed in his grave could have come from the West. "

Page 204:

Hungarian: "Az eddigiekben elemzett horreumi tárgytípusokon kívül több Keszthely-kultúrás sír is ismert még, melyekben olyan női ékszerek illetve férfi viseleti elemek kerültek elő, melyek biztosan germán eredetűek, s azok legjobb párhuzamainak sorát 6. század végi. de főképp 7. század eleji itáliai langobard sírokban találni meg. "

English: "In addition to the types of Horreum objects analysed so far, several Keszthely-culture graves are also known, in which female jewellery and male costume elements were found that are certainly of Germanic origin, and their best parallels can be found in Italian Lombard graves of the late 6th century, but especially of the early 7th century. "

Page 205:

Hungarian: "Ez egyben azt is jelenti, hogy mivel öntött lábbeli díszek a kora avar kori Kárpát-medencében eddig kizárólag csak olyan lelőhelyekről ismertek, ahol kétségkívül valószínűsíthető germán jelenlét (VIDA 1996, 118-121), ezt kell feltételeznünk a fenékpusztai sír esetében is."

English: "This also means that, since cast footwear ornaments in the Early Avar Carpathian Basin are so far known only from sites where there is no doubt that a Germanic presence is probable (VIDA 1996, 118-121), we must assume the same in the case of the Fenékpuszta tomb."

Page 205:

Hungarian: "Miután pedig a Keszthelykultúra kapcsán, az eddigiek értelmében, germánok mögött Itáliából visszakerült langobardok gyaníthatok, bezárul a kör."

English: "And since, in the context of the Keszthely culture, I suspect that the Germanic people were Lombards who had returned from Italy, the circle is closed."

This is not all, if you still want more examples I will be happy to send them to you. Do you have any other questions? CriticKende (talk) 07:01, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@CriticKende just stop this charade, please!

The source black on white says:

"A survey of the complete corpus of finds strongly suggests that the population living in and around the Keszthely-Fenékpuszta fort in the Early Avar period was made up of Christian communities with a mixed background, which can be easily distinguished from the other early Avar groups in Transdanubia." Aristeus01 (talk) 12:33, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly, a mixed Germanic and Avar population. CriticKende (talk) 13:35, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"hich can be easily distinguished from the other early Avar groups in Transdanubia" because there was many Lombard too. CriticKende (talk) 13:36, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]