Talk:Katheryn of Berain

Is this for real?

Are we sure that it isn't made up, some Welsh grasping at straws to claim ties to the Tudors? It is the same as the Carey family and supposed descent from Henry VIII, but the only proven alternative to the Stuarts' own Tudor descent is the Stanleys. Leo does not list anything of relation to her, although he makes the mistake of including the Careys. [1] The family tree given in the link alludes to a probable fake. It says the Salisbury family is Welf from Salzburg (Hanoverians!), when it is obvious that they descend from English people in Salisbury, Wiltshire. How does one get from Salzburg, Austria, instead of Salisbury, Wiltshire to Wales in an age of English colonization of the Welsh Marches? You tell me. 68.110.8.21 02:00, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, there is not enough to prove or disprove any of these claims. It really stems on what people choose to believe. As I have stated before, I never paid attention to the claim of Katheryn of Berain because unlike the popular Carey children there is simply not enough information on her. However, in fairness, unless there is strong evidence to support one view over another, no one can ever be certain. And, except for a few documents from that time period here and there it is all just speculation. RosePlantagenet 16:21, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Speculation? Sir Roland de Velville (Vieilleville), Catherine's (Katheryn's) grandfather, and his close circle certainly believed that he was the son of Henry Tudur, and no one appears ever to have questioned that. Roland spent twenty five years at Court, much of it as a member of the the household of Henry VII. He was never publically acknowledged to be Henry's son, but there are quite obvious reasons why this was so and he certainly was treated as such. His coat of arms provides the clues, and he possibly was not a 'bastard'. There is prime source evidence in the Lleweny Papers (see no. 124); the Griffith of Penrhyn Collection (Bangor University Archives); Calendar Patent Rolls; the Letters and Papers Henry VII. In addition contemporary poetry such as one composed in 1535 by Dafydd Alaw who describes Roland as 'a man of kingly line and of earls blood. BrynLlywelyn 13:55, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Please show the statements you source this from. Please, make sure they are not second hand discussions from commentators. Let it be in their own words. Idle speculation can lead people to believe a lot of things, including such outrages like that King James was a homosexual. Please, show the facts only. Oh and furthermore, please leave any Welsh nationalism at the door with regards to the discussion of the Tudors. I only say this because it appears that the only people who give this story any credence are Welsh. 68.110.8.21 07:29, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Your statement about 'Welsh nationalism' is unfair, unjust and surely serves to show your own bias. Wikipedia positively discourages these type of remarks.

Sir Roland de Velville was Constable of Beaumaris Castle from 1509 until his death in 1535. Beaumaris in this period was his home and the place where he died. This is the place where he is best remembered, and where letters and documents have survived. I give below several references, but there are many more.

Kalendars of Gwynedd, ed. Edward Breese (1873), 122. Materials for the reign of Henry VII, ed. W. Campbell (Rolls Ser., 1877), II, 394. Letters and Papers, Richard III and Henry VII, ed. J. Gairdner (Rolls Ser., 1861), I, 395, 397-400. C.P.R., 11 Henry VII, part I, 47 (28 May 1496). C.C.R., 12 Henry VII (20 April 1497). L.& P., Foreign & Domestic, Henry Vlll, I, part I (1920), 158 (9), 707. 1524 (7) (23 March 1512). Calendar of Wynn (of Gwydir) Papers, 1515-1690 (1926), p. 259. 18. V. generally. E. A. Lewis. The Mediaeval Boroughs of Snowdonia (1912), pp. 111, 215, 217, and L. & P. Henry VIII. II, part 2, 3741 (ii); III, part I, 1000, 1025; IV, 3087. 'Sir Roland late deceased'. Cf. 'Extracts from Old Wills relating to Wales', in Arch. Camb., IX, 4th ser. (1878), 149.

National Library of Wales (NLW), Lleweni Papers 124, calendared in W. J. Smith (ed.), Calendar of Salusbury Correspondence 1559 – circa 1700 (Cardiff, 1954), no. l86. John Salusbury (d. l685) was the son of Roger Salusbury (d. l623) of Bachegraig (ibid., Table III), whose brother, John Salusbury (d. 1566), married Katheryn of Berain (ibid., Table I, Sheet B). For Katheryn of Berain, the daughter of Velville's daughter, Jane, and Thomas ap Robert of Berain, see The Dictionary of Welsh Biography down to l940 (London, 1959), p. 531. An illegitimate son of Sir John Salusbury (d. 16l2) of Lleweni, a son of Katheryn of Berain by her first marriage, was named Velivel Salusbury (Smith, Calendar of Salusbury Correspondence, Table I, Sheet B). Public Record Office (PRO), SC6/Henry VIII/5418, fees section.

Letters and Papers, Richard III and Henry VII (Rolls Series, 1861), vol. I, pp. 395, 397-400. The Account Books of John Heron, Treasurer of the Chamber', Bulletin of the John Rylands Library, vol. 43 (l960), p. 36. The Great Tournament Roll of Westminster (Oxford, l968), p. 36, n. l; A. H. Thomas and I. D. Thornley (eds.), The Great Chronicle of London (London, l938), pp. 314-15. J. Leland, Collectanea (London, l774), vol. iv, p. 263. G. Kipling, 'The Queen of May's Joust at Kennington and the Justes of the Moneths of May and June', Notes and Queries, CCXXIX (June, 1984), 158-62 (I am indebted to Professor Sydney Anglo for this reference); A. Young, Tudor and Jacobean Tournaments (London, l987), p. 145. A. R. Wagner, Heralds and Heraldry in the Middle Ages (2nd. ed., Oxford, 1960), pp. 79-80. Buckingham was on sufficiently familiar terms with Velville to borrow money from him; in 1520 he owed Veleville £l00. Letters and Papers, Henry VIII, vol. III, pt. I, no. 1285 (5, 27, 31). PRO, E404/85/I/35, annuity granted l2 March, E404185/2/24; Cal. Patent Rolls, Henry VII, vol II, p. 47, PRO, C82/148. The annuity of 1493 was to be paid by the Exchequer, that of 1496 by the sheriff of Wiltshire. British Library (BL), Stowe 440, f. 79, PRO, E36/285, f. 44. The earliest reference to Velville appears to be that recording a grant to 'Roland de Vielle' in Michaelmas term 1488: W. Campbell (ed.), Materials for the Reign of Henry VII (2 vols., Rolls Series, 1873-77), vol. II, p. 394. Letters and Papers, Foreign and Domestic, of the Reign of Henry VIII (22 vols., 1862-l932) (hereafter L. & P. Henry VIII), vol. I, pt. i, no. 20. PRO, SC6/Henry VIII/54I8, fees section, which records the texts of the letters patent and of the warrants of 29 October and 6 December 1509. L. & P. Henry VIII, vol. I, pt. 1, no. 158 (9). Payment was to be at the Exchequer at Easter and Michaelmas by equal portions (PRO, C83/338). L. & P. Henry VIII, vol. III, pt. 1, no. 1000, records payment of annuity in 1520. L. & P. Henry VIII, vol. I, pt, ii no. 2480 (30); PRO, E101/56/25, f. 43v. Velville's signature, 'Rolant', appears against the sum of 105s. paid to him as conduct money. BL, Additional MS. 45,131, f. 174. PRO, C82/586. PRO, E36/l30, f. 201v. PRO, SC 6/Henry VIII/5422, fees and respites sections. The text of the letters patent is recorded in the chamberlain's account for the year ending Michaelmas 1516: PRO, SC6/Henry VIII/5424, fees section. The chamberlain's account for the year ending Michaelmas 1516 records the payment to Veleville of £14 10s. 0d., this being the portion of Veleville's fee of forty marks due in respect of the period from the date of his letters patent of 6 March 1515 until the following Michaelmas, i.e. a half-year and sixteen days. The sum of £12 2s. 8½d., the balance (less 7½d) of the fee due in respect of the period from Michaelmas 1515 to 5 March 1516, was recorded in the account as being 'in respite', but an entry in the 'respites' section of the account for the following year records that this payment was to be excused (PRO, SC6/Henry VIII/5426). Payments made by the chamberlain of north Wales. Chamberlain's accounts in PRO, SC6/Henry VIII. Total fees and wages for the year ending Michaelmas 1509, £l75 3s. 4d. (No. 5418); for the following year no account survives and for the year ending Michaelmas 1511 the surviving account (No. 5419) gives no details of fees, but for each year the (total is assumed to be £350 5s. 0d., as in the years ending Michaelmas 1512 (No. 5420) and the two following years (PRO, LRI2/21/662); total for the year ending Michaelmas 1515, £350 5s. 0d. (No. 5422), including the sum of £175 2s. 6d. for the latter half of the year authorised in the following year; total for the year ending Michaelmas 1516, £200 (No. 5424, ignoring a possible underpayment of 7½d. for his fee); totals for the following eighteen years, 1517 to 1534 inclusive, £200 (Nos. 5426-30, 5433-36, 544l, 5444, 5447, 5450, 5453, 5455, 5457, 5460); total for the half-year ending Easter 1535, £100 (No. 5461). Angharad Llwyd stated that Henry VII bestowed upon Velville a moiety of the Penmynydd estate, consisting of 486 acres (op. cit, p. 333); for other references to Henry VIII granting Veleville lands forming part of the Tudor estate of Penmynydd, see J. Williams, 'Penmynydd and the Tudors', Archaeologia Cambrensis, 3rd. series, XV (1869), 402; J. Ballinger, 'Katheryn of Berain', Y Cymmrodor, XL (1929), 2; and R. A. Griffiths and R. S. Thomas, op. cit., p. 192.. Velville's grant of denization, see L. & P. Henry VIII, vol. I, pt. 1, no. 1524 (7). The terms of the grants by which constables of the royal castles in the principality of north Wales in the last year of Henry VII's reign held their offices are summarised in the account of the chamberlain for the year ending Michaelmas 1508, PRO, SC6/Henry VII/160l, fees section In a letter of 26 June 1535, Sir Richard Bulkeley stated that Veleville had murdered a man in the Lord Cardinal's (i.e. Wolsey's) time and had forfeited all his goods, but no indication of the date of the alleged murder is cited: L. & P. Henry VIII, vol. VII, no. 889; Historical Manuscripts Commission, no. 58: Report on the Manuscripts of the Marquess of Bath, vol. IV, Seymour Papers, 1532-l686 (HMSO, 1968), p. 97. In the early years of Henry VIII's reign, Velville is mentioned as holding musters at Beaumaris, and there are references to gunpowder being delivered to him for Beaumaris (PRO, Star Chamber 217, f. 26v; L. & P. Henry VIII, vol. I, pt. ii, nos. 2834, 3222). P. C. Bartrum, Welsh Genealogies, A.D. 1400-1500 (Aberystwyth, 1983), vol. VIII, p. 1265; Lewys Dwnn, Heraldic Visitations of Wales, ed. S. R. Meyrick (2 vols., Llandovery, 1846), vol. II, p. 131, n. 4; J. E. Griffith, Pedigrees of Anglesey and Caernarvonshire (Horncastle, 1914), pp. 26, 223. For the family of Griffith of Penrhyn, see Dictionary of Welsh Biography, pp. 1123-26 PRO, Star Chamber 2/7, f. 28; Star Chamber 2/4, f. 5. The Plea Rolls of Anglesey (1518-1516) (Anglesey Antiquarian Society and Field Club, 1927), p. 54, no. 134. NLW, Lleweni collection, No. 222. In deeds dated 20 June and 31 July 1526. Veleville and Agnes Griffith (not referred to as his wife) granted and quitclaimed two shops in Beaumaris that were stated to be in the tenure and occupation of Agnes and one Peter Barbour (University College of North Wales, Bangor. Baron Hill Collection, Nos. 552-53). The settlement made by Veleville before the marriage of his daughter Jane was dated 5 June 1531 (NLW, Lleweni Collection, No. 370 Velville's annuity of forty marks, granted in 1496, was still being paid in 1520 (L. & P. Henry VIII, vol. III, pt. 1. no. 1000). The total of £1,2l6 13s. 4d. is based on the assumption that this annuity, and that of £20, originally granted in 1493, continued to be paid until his death, his payments from both annuities totalling £46 13s. 4d. in the twenty-six years, 1509-1534, and £23 6s. 6d. in 1535. In a letter date 26 June written in 1535 by Sir Richard Bulkeley to Henry Norris (executed l7 May 1536), Velville's successor as constable of Beaumaris castle, Bulkeley claimed that on taking possession of the castle from Velville's widow and her son-in-law, William ap Robert, he never saw a house so ill kept, as there was scarcely a chamber in which a man might lie dry (L. & P. Henry VIII, vol. VII, no. 889). NLW, Lleweni collection, Nos. 230, 209, 22l, 257(i), 222 (grant by Agnes Griffith University College of North Wales, Bangor, Baron Hill Collection Nos. 552-53, for which see above, p. 364, n. 61. NLW, Lleweni Collection, no. 370. Will dated 6 June 1535, proved on l3 June 1535 at Llanallgo, Anglesey (NLW, Kinmel Deeds, No. 53). In the will (Latin) Sir Rowland Velville describes himself as a knight for the king's body and constable of the castle of Beaumaris; it is dated 'in my place of habitation in the aforesaid castle' In his will, Sir Roland directed that he should be buried in the monastery of the Friars Minor of Llanfaes, the Franciscan house about a mile to the north of Beaumaris. Llanfaes was the burial place of Goronwy ap Tudor (d. 1382), one of the ancestors of the Tudors. Sir Rowland died at Beaumaris in 1535. Dame Agnes, his widow, made her will on 16 December 1542, and directed that she be buried in the chapel of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Beaumaris where her husband was buried, and she bequeathed £4 for the repair and building of the chapel and a further £4 for a priest to sing for a whole year for the health of her husband's soul and her own "...gwr o lin brenhinoedd ag o waed ieirll i gyd oedd," “A man of kingly line and of earl’s blood.” Extract from an elegy to Sir Roland de Velville by Dafydd Alaw composed shortly after his death in 1535. The earl’s blood referred to Edmund Tudor, earl of Richmond (died 1456)

BrynLlywelyn 12:24, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Why is it that nobody has really commented on this, as opposed to the numerous other love-children by English monarchs? Why has it taken this long to be noticed? 68.110.8.21 11:36, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

See, for example, 'Britain's Royal Families. The Complete Genealogy' Alison Weir (2002) page152

BrynLlywelyn 13:20, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

As of now, the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography article on Mam Cymru is available free here. It says "It was firmly, if incorrectly, believed that Sir Roland was the son of Henry Tudor (later Henry VII) and a Breton lady". Angus McLellan (Talk) 18:10, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

The Tudor Place which was used as a source I believe has no confirmation as to where the information came from. You can't even go to the actual biography page of Sir Roland as it is a dead link. Point being he was never formally recognized -- as Henry Fitzroy by King Henry VIII and Elizabeth Blount was. Again, with the Carey's no formal recognition of the children supposedly by Henry was made. Someone just happened to add them to the list of cousins -- which is debatable! This article is in desperate need of citations!! -- Lady Meg (talk) 03:32, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Incorrect Plantagenet connexion

If she were actually the great-granddaughter of Henry VII, then she wouldn't be descended from Edward IV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SaraFist (talk • contribs) 09:29, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

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