Talk:Kalki/Archive 1

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Archive 1 Archive 2

POV

I dislike references to Kalki as a myth as it presupposes the falsehood of Hindu beliefs. Speaking of Jesus as mythical would be offensive to Christians, and speaking of the Second Coming of the Messiah during the Apocalypse as myth is similarly politically incorrect. I have changed the use of the word myth.

The extreme editorializing should be toned down a bit on this page. Pjrich 07:40, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I hope this problem is signifigantly less severe at the present time?
I think you're overthinking the meaning of the word "myth" - the very first definition Dictionary.com gave me is, "A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society." This does not involve falsity, but an archetype, namely of supernatural origin. Certainly an avatar of a god counts as supernatural, right? - MasterXiam 19:47, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Religion ( Arya Vaidik Dharma ) Time calculation , calendar’s, and kings in present Kali yuga


In the running Christan calendar or world wide used calendar year of 2005 A.D the following is the position , status of other Indian dating years


a) Shalivahan calendar dating ( Used in Maharashtra State ) :- Year 1927 b) Vikram Savant calendar ( Used in north India ) :- year 2061-62 c) Hijaree ( The Islam religion calendar dating ) :- year 1426-27 d) Parshi or Parsi calendar dating( Zorashtrian religion calendar ) : Year 1374-75 e) Shiv shaka or King Shivaji’s calendar dating :- 331-32 f) Mahaveer calendar Savant ( Jain religion calendar ) :- year 2531-32 g) Kaliyuga calendar dating :- year 5107

According to Hindu religion there are four yuga’s

1) Satya yuga ( Kruta yuga ):- 17,28,000 Human year’s ( Has been passed ) 2) Treta yuga :- 12,96,000 Human year’s ( Has been passed ) 3)Dwapar yuga :- 8,64,000 Human year’s ( Has been passed ) 4) Kali yuga :- 4,32,000 Human year’s ( 5,106 years have been passed and 4,26,894 year’s to go )

Kali yuga started in 3,102 B.C. Today’s Year of Kali yuga in 2,005 A.D is 5,107

Six Shakakarte king in present Kaliyuga

This Kaliyuga is now running . It is 4,32,000 human years long. From this Kaliyuga 5,106 years have been passed untill the present year 2005 and 4,26,894 years are to go in future age .

Timeline of Kaliyuga calendar dating :-

1) Yudhishthir ( Dharmaraj ):- Ruled in Indraprastha (Capital city Delhi of India ) and started his own calendar dating in the year 3,102 B.C ( Before Jesus Christ or Christian or current Roman calendar dating ). He was the elder brother of Pandav of the great Indian war of Mahabharat . His dating continued for 3,044 years until king Vikrama , the second Shakkarta king broke it and started his own dating or the new Shaka .

2) King Vikrama :- Ruled in Ujjain city ( Present day Ujjain city in Madhyapradesh state of India ) in the year 57 B.C . He started his own calendar dating by breaking the old Yudhishthir Shaka . But his dating was continued only for 135 year’s as the third Shakakarta king King Shalivahan at Paithan city in Maharashtra state near by Aurangabad city came in power and broke the running Vikrama Shaka . Allthough in north India still the Vikrama Shaka is running , it is said that some kind of understanding or truce was fixed up between these two grate kings to continue both the calendar in their respective areas or nations .

3) King Shalivahan :- Ruled in the old city Paithan of Maharashtra state in the year 78 A.D. , that is after 78 years later Jesus Christ or the Christian dating started . The Maratha cast has a clan after this grate king . This king is mentioned in old Christian books as it is written that King Shalivahan had meet the founder of Christian religion ,The Jesus Christe himself on a tripe to grate Himalaya mountains. His Shaka will continue for 18,000 years that is for Eighteen thousand years. That comes to in the year 18,078 this Shalivahan Shaka will be broken , discontinued by the next coming Shakakarta king and his name is King Vijayabhinandan , who will happened on the banks of the river of Vaitarna in Thane district of near Bombay city or Mumbai city of Maharashtra state . Need not to say that this grate king Shalivahan was from Maratha cast. Any rational person can come to this conclusion. Historical evidence had it that the Satvahan alias Shalivahan ruled at Paithan city of Maharashtra in the time 30 B.C. TO 230 A.D.

4) King Vijayabhinandan ( coming ) :- This great king will happen on the banks of river Vaitarna probabely in Thane district of Maharashtra state . This place is near the Bombay alias Mumbai city . And the river Vaitarna folws in Thane district of Maharashtra state . He will break the King Shalivahan Shaka and start his own Shaka or the calendar dating . This is a kind or prophecy of Hindu religion . This king Vijayabhinandan will happen in year 18,078 A.D or after Jesus Christ . His Shaka will run , continue for 10,000 years . That does mean that in the year 28,078 A.D after Jesus Christ his Shaka or dating will be broken , discontinued by the next Shakakarta king Nagarjuna who will happen in the Bangal state of India. As this king Vijayabhinandan is to happen in the region of Maharshtra it is certain that he will be from Maratha cast.

5) King Nagarjun ( Coming ) :- He will be the fifth grate Shkakarta king of Kaliyuga. He will happen, appear in Bangal state of India in the year 28078 A.D . He will terminate the shaka or calendar of Vijayabhinandan and start his own calendar or shaka and that will continue for 4,00,000 years afterward.This Nagarjuna has the most long running calendar in Kaliyuga Shaka dating.

6) King Kalki ( coming ) :- He is the last and final shakakarta king of the Kaliyuga . As Hinu religion has predicted that there are ten Avatar of lord Vishnu , this king Kalki is the tenth and final avatar of that series . He is the final avatara who will end the present Kaliyuga and again start the cycle if yuga that is the Satya yuga will be started after this grand termination .Hindu religion has prediction that he will come on a white horse . This Kalki avatar will happen , appear in the region of Kolhapur of Maharashtra state in India . He will end the then running shaka of Nagarjuna and start his own shaka or dating or calendar in the year 4,28,078 A.D. His calendar or shaka will run for 821 years. Then perhaps the final day of judgement will come mentioned in christain religion. As This king is to happen in the state of Maharashtra it is obviously certain that he will be from Maratha cast.

Amma & Kalki

In southern India, near Chennai (Madras) there is an Ashram called Golden City. Situated in Andhra Pradesh, India. The couple is giving freely enlightment and healing energy called [[Deeksha]. Many people in the surroundings and around the world in the first years of this century experienced oneness consiousness through this movment.

I removed the above, since I couldn't understand it. Help, please? Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 12:58, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What could not be understood ? There is a Divine Couple in Golden City, near Chennai in South India called Sri Amma and Sri Bhagavan. Sri Bhagavan is adored as Kalki by thousands of people, since He inaugurated the Golden Age or SatyaYuga, in 2003 by giving Enlightenment or Oneness to mankind. Ordinary folk as a result now actually LIVE and experience the distilled essence of the Vedas - 'Tat Twam Asi' or 'I am That'. As more people are being enlightened everyday, a critical mass will be reached by 2012, when in one single tsunami-like wave all of humanity will experience Enlightenment as their reality. Whatever stories you may hear about the Puranas or sacred books about what Kalki should do, where he should be born etc, Sri Bhagavan here will retain the label 'Kalki', since he is capable of transmitting permanent and irreversible Enlightenment to Man. Hence I suggest, you should put this info back on the main section. Reference websites are http://www.onenessuniversity.org, http://www.experiencefestival.org

I was under the impression that Kalki was to be a young man, not an old man. - MasterXiam 19:52, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry to whomever for deleting you Kali Yuga "timeline", however, it already appears (in duplicate) towards the top of the discussion page. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor!)

Gandhi as Kalki?

Are there any sources for this? Also, if there are, is the thinking mainstream enough to have it's own section here? I will change shortly unless I hear otherwise.--Pranathi 21:11, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

...That sounds like news to me. I do think Gandhi was great, but I seriously doubt he was Kalki. And I've never heard that before, so... no, I don't think it goes here. MasterXiam 09:14, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
This "information" was originally added by someone at IP 24.12.174.42 (Comcast Cable Communications ILLINOIS-14). The ONLY "source" for this idea seems to have been speculation made at the "Sourceryforge.org" wiki's article on "The Fourth Horseman Theory", which had a link to it, "Averted apocalypse: Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Gandhi/Kalki", added by the same IP. The creator of THAT article (originally at "The Four Horsemen Theory") was also at IP 24.12.174.42. This apparently casual and perhaps somewhat facetious speculation hardly seems to have been a reliable source for notable encyclopedic information. ~ Xanthus 10:03, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
This so-called "speculation" was discussed by my "Indian Civilization" professor during our talks about Vishnu's many avatars several years ago. I am not the original poster of these claims, however, I'm sure my college professor knows what she is talking about! (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 03:49, 7 July 2006 (UTC))

Stop posting duplicate info!!!

I don't know who it is, but someone keeps on posting the same Kali Yuga timeline over and over again. Each post is huge, taking up valuable space from other wikipedians who actually wish to contribute something to the Kalki article. I have deleted two of the postings, but left one of them intact towards the top of the page. Whoever is doing this, PLEASE STOP!!!(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 18:57, 5 August 2006 (UTC))

Kalki (novel)

This article about the Hindu Kalki. Thus images of Kalki (novel) is WP:UNDUE to the novel. The image is also not a true representation of the Hindu Kalki, combining elements of Shiva, Nataraja and Kalki iconography to form a composite image.

Also things like Kalki (novel) need in the disambig of Kalki and need not be mentioned here too. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 10:32, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Kalki or Krishna?

User:Rwnaseem continues to add material to the Maitreya claimants section about a Muslim leader that claims to be Krishna. The sources they provide do not mention Kalki at all, only Krishna. Therefore, I believe it belongs on the Krishna page. I have asked them to find better sources that mention Kalki, but they continue to rely on the old sources. In addition, I have warned them several times that the material is wrong and that continual reversion of the page is a violation of WP:3RR.

I have started this thread in the hopes that they will discuss the problem. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 04:39, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I have checked the the article for Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the religious leader in question, and it does not mention anything about Krishna or Kalki. My deletions of the material is based solely on the fact that the citations do not mention Kalki at all (like I said above). User:Rwnaseem continues to add the material. I have added another vandalism warning to his page. I am most positive that he will add it again. So, the next time he does so, I will be going to the admin page to report him. I just hope the admin can mediate without having to block the person. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 14:08, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Deleted material from ma--Ghostexorcist (talk) 19:26, 1 May 2008 (UTC)in article

I deleted the following from the page because it was unreferenced. "Interpretations” have no place in the article unless they come from a reliable source. The section in question has been tagged as needing references since August of 2006 and I can remember the same material being in the article long before I placed the tag:

The Kalki within

{{Unreferenced}}

Drawing on symbolic and metaphoric interpretations of the Buddhist Kalachakra, Shambhala, and Bodhisattva traditions at least as much as the Hindu prophecies, interpretations of the Kalki legends in ways that do not necessarily apply the designation "Kalki" uniquely to any particular person have arisen. In such interpretations "Kalki" is seen primarily as an archetypal symbol of what can be manifest in any person, whether man, woman, or child. [citation needed]

It is a designation of spiritual repose and vigor, a "beautiful life essence", impelling people to follow diverse and harmonious paths of virtue, rather than needlessly harsh and destructive paths of bigotry and narrow minded presumptions. To those who embrace this view the term Kalki can refer to an attitude or quality of awareness that will be manifest in many enlightened people, who perceive beyond Maya (the appearances of Space and Time) and into Eternity in ways that are both rational and mystical in nature. A level of Awareness where people become destroyers of the uncharitable ways of bigotry within themselves which would otherwise lead them to unjustly oppress others, and limit themselves.

In such interpretations everyone who is enlightened enough to follow the ways of ultimate honesty and ultimate love can be declared to be an honorable manifestation of Vishnu the preserver of Life, and Kalki the Destroyer of Foulness … but no one person can be declared to be the ultimate manifestation…or the ultimate teacher for all people. There are many ways to point out some of the worst confusions that afflict human minds and souls, and for anyone to think that there is only one greatest and most perfect way for all, (which is of course their own), and that all others must be scorned, shunned, denigrated and vilified is itself one of the worst and most dangerous confusions that afflict many who are spiritually weak, ignorant, cowardly and vain.

It is emphasized that much is required in many spiritual paths, but the most important of all requirements are the will to speak the truth, and the capacity to love any who perceive the truth and become devoted to it, no matter how troublesome, misguided, dishonest and dangerous they may initially be. One can not force change upon others, but one can give them the information and opportunity by which they can come to desire beneficial change themselves.

Each person who is wisely charitable, "riding the white horses" of fate's flow, and wielding the deceit destroying "sword" of honesty can become a "Kalki" — a destroyer of such foulness as could dwell within themselves first and foremost, that they may more ably assist others in destroying the capacities for evil within themselves.[citation needed]

Each person is considered a potential spiritual ruler of their own manifest span of mortal life, a universe to themselves connected to all others by bonds of awareness and sympathy; a person of utmost integrity, perceiving many connections between all people, all events, all ideas and all souls, and therefore affirming that respect for the individual integrity of all other mortals as an imperative of their own. The Kali Yuga can end within them, no matter how long it may persist in others, and a Satya Yuga of wisdom begins within their life, enabling them to help others to find their own unique paths towards enlightenment, and into their own ranges of contentment.[citation needed]

(Ghostexorcist 22:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC))

Never mind. No one has ever provided sources for the above material, so it will never make it back in. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 19:26, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

citing sources

I noticed there were some sources cited in this article. Editors may want to check out {{cite book}} and {{cite web}}. It may help improve the look of the article if you use these. If there is consensus, and if people want me to, I can switch them over.--Rockfang (talk) 00:17, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Gurus as "Kalki(s)"

Not too long ago there was a deletion "drive" of non-notable gurus, some of whom claimed to be avatars of deities including Vishnu, and a few of whom (at least one, but I think there were more) claimed to be Kalki. There are certainly many of these "gurus" (leaders, whatever you choose to call them) who claim to be Kalki. While they themselves may not be notable, not only because of their extremely small groups of followers but also the large number of them, should it be noted somewhere in the article that such gurus exist and self-proclaim themselves as Kalki? Presumably this would be in the "Modern interpretations of the Kalki prophecy" section, since these people are indeed modern-day gurus. If I am not mistaken, there was also at least one, probably more, scriptural reference to multiple false avatars (presumably including people falsely claiming to be Kalki) - should this be noted as well? (I don't have the exact reference(s) but would appreciate if someone could find them.) --Shruti14 t c s 22:56, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

See the article List of people who have been considered avatars. It might be more appropriate to put them there. While many say they are avatars, close inspection shows that very few say they are specifically Kalki. 72.204.47.141 (talk) 23:04, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Islam an Kalki

Whoever posted the information on the connection between islam and Kalki is simply spreading a hoax please see (http://www.answering-islam.org/Hoaxes/kalkiavatar.html) to see the discussion in its entirety not the selective info that was placed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.123.127.194 (talk) 08:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, this is total nonsense and this hoax should be edited out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.247.42.242 (talk) 18:09, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Suggest a new page just for non-Hindu Kalki beliefs

I do'nt think "Modern variations of the Kalki prophecy" is a good title as thesse aren't as much newly made prophesies, but modern claimants of fulfilling the Hindu one that is old. I propose a page called Kalki Claimants and then a link toward that with see also. Or another possibility "People who have bee considered Kalki." See for example os this...

Maybe this would make this page about Hindu idea and still there can be a full page about others that want to be Kalki or of whom others have claimed this of them. So this is the Hindu concept that includes that Kalki must be born in a Brahmin family and etc. Also just that a person has written a boook does not make it a belief that pepole have. Not many that I know worshop Mohammad as Kalki or Hitler. Not even neonazis I think have this view. So it is maybe only a book. Please discuss these suggestions. YOu asked me to discuss. Vedantahindu (talk) 12:42, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

As said above, I'm for the idea of a separate page for claimants, whatever the title. Glad you decided to discuss instead of edit warring. Hoverfish Talk 15:25, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Hitler did not clame to be Kalki Dasavatara. So he is not really claimant of that. So it might be more right to say "People who have been considered Kalki". Does this sound good?? If it is then I can make a page like that if everyone is okay with that. Vedantahindu (talk) 16:31, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Some do clame and some do not clame. It says Alejandro Biondini does claim this. But do not think Bahá'u'lláh because he was of Islam faith. But maybe considered covers these too more than claimants. In article it could say clamed by themselves or others.Vedantahindu (talk) 16:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Should we wait for Ghostexorcist to say okay? He puts it all back over and over so I don't just want to have it here and then another page for it too. That would be no point. Do you see this? Is Ghostexorcist okay with this idea? No one can put without your permission since you are very strong. Vedantahindu (talk) 18:45, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
There is not enough material to make a separate page. It would be deleted in a heart beat by an admin or another editor who doesn't think it meets the notability guidelines. I don't own this page at all, I'm just protecting it from people who try to slant the page towards their own point of view. For a similar situation see this thread. You will see that an admin had to step in to stop an overzealous editor who deleted material based on his own bias. I only want the page to be balanced. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 19:01, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
And do you consider this in-text link to a political party's website, written in Spanish, as proper sourcing for Mr. Biondini's claim? Hoverfish Talk 19:26, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
The lanaguage is not the problem. If it does not mention Kalki, then delete the entry. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 22:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

How is making a site about a Hindu concept be about the Hindu aspects of this a personal slant? It seems more like a Hindu slant for a Hindu concept. And then have the other non-Hindu forms and ways it is used outside Hinduism be a page of its own as is done in cases named above. None of them have been deleted. Yes you don't own the page, you just protect it from people like me. I understand. YOu are doing good work. But maybe there could be another page called "Kalki (Hinduism)" and that one maybe could be about the Hindu concept as in the Vedas, not in modern forms outside of Hindu scripture. I ccould perhaps get help from Wikproject Hinduism for that site. Would you need to protect it too from us giving it Hindu slant that is personal. There are a billion Hindus, and one lady that wrote a book that you protect. It feels to me that is a lot more personal than Hinduism. So what about a page about the Hindu concept? Vedantahindu (talk) 19:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Why am I asked to speak here when I am told that anything I do will be changed, and a new page removed by an adminstrator like another site. And that this one does not own but protects from me? What value is there in this talking here? I can't see it. Please explain to me. I am new. Vedantahindu (talk) 19:48, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

It slants the page because you refuse to cover every side of the issue. The simple fact is that there is just not enough material to make up a sub-article worth keeping. Take the Kali page for example. There is a section called "In New Age and Neopaganism". There have been several attempts to remove it from the page in the past. It might make a good sub-article, but, right now, there is not enough material. Should we remove that from Kali because other editors disagree with her inclusion in Neo-Paganism? No. It balances out the page because it highlights views outside of Hinduism. Anyway, I have written several Hindu related articles and I belong to both Wikiprojects Hindusim and Hindu mythology. I think my participation with those projects and my willingness to keep the non-Hindu material on this page shows my impartiality.
I have reverted your edits in the past because you cite the material as being racist. Please explain to me how the material is racist. I see no mention of racial slurs against Hindus. The section just talks about Nazi leaders being seen as Kalki. What about mentions of Muhammad or the Bahai faith? Are these racist as well? I'm afraid Wikipedia would be littler more than a brochure if editors were freely allowed to remove whole sections just because it contrasts with their own ideologies. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 22:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I see you are feeling very impartial, and how you feel is probably exactly that. Either you have not much time for checking into claims of Kalki or you are are being carefully selective, and 'chery picking.' Samael Aun Weor also says he is Kalki and is believed by some and more so than of Hitler. So this is a kind of chery picked impartiality you enjoy. But there are other problems and I am afraid to fix as you are so strong and big of mind as you have explained to me. These are them. Since you are the gaurd of this page I hope you will attend to them. 1. There is a spacing problem in the section Clames of Being Kalki. 2. "Modern variations of the Kalki prophecy" makes no sense and is a contradiction. Is this postdiction? Do you understand? 3. Why are books on this page that are in the disambiguation page repeated here? One has a reference that is the site itself, listed as reference 13. Is this how we do this on Wikipedia? 4. "Claims of Being Kalki" does not apply to Hitler as he did not make this claim? Is it possible only this writer has this belief? There is a policy against putting views with almost no adherents in Wikipedia.

Why are you so sure another article on this "People who are believed to be Kalki" would be small and removed? It has not been tried yet. Some of these others are doing okay and at the beginning it will be a stub. Is there a policy against stubs now? Is there a minimum length for a stub? Can you direc t me to this policy wise sir who is so much big and very great and of much mind. Vedantahindu (talk) 23:20, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Sarcastic remarks aside (though flattering in some remarks as they were), I have written 18 articles and edited countless others. I'm not saying all of my articles are gems, but I have the experience to know when an article will or will not be successful. I think you are assuming way too much when you claim I'm postdicting or cherry picking. My comments concerning the success of the sub-article was based on the small amount of entries already present on the page. I never claimed to know all of the people who have claimed to be Kalki. Feel free to add more to the page. Even if you did create such an article, you still have to place a link in the “see also” section and guidelines state “See also section should be worked into the text where possible, and usually removed from the See also list unless that would make them hard to find” (WP:See also). So the claiments would still have to be mentioned in some form on the page.
I’m glad you have decided to compromise. It usually takes another editor’s comments before some people understand the issue. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 18:12, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
You both need to compromise. Imho, Savitri Devi's idea that "Hitler was Kalki" is rather notable while otoh no sort of notability is established for the Biondini stuff. Either way, mention of this stuff should be kept brief. I don't think there is enough material to warrant a branching out of a "Kalki claimants" sub-article. Just keep it here, the short list doesn't hurt the article. I have removed Biondini but not Savitri Devi as a compromise suggestion. dab (𒁳) 16:31, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Thank you dab. I think your clean-up makes it better and I can accept this compromise. Vedantahindu (talk) 16:41, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Savitri Devi is notable. Her theory is discussed in some detail in Goodrick-Clarke's Hitler's Priestess on pp.124-5, and he talks about Claudio Mutti's and Miguel Serrano's recapitulations of the idea on p.218 and p.221. The much longer section about Muhammad, however is poorly sourced. This seems to come from one "Ved Prakash Upaddhay", who looks to be a Muslim convert, but I can't be sure. His book also seems to claim that Muhammad was also predicted in Buddhist scriptures and is cited in the Maitreya article. This seems to be a feature of Muslim apologetics [1]. It's difficult to be clear how notable these sources are. Paul B (talk) 23:21, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
My edit has just been reverted with the unintelligable comment "doesnt need to be in detail if so then all prophicies should be listed meaning new page for Kalki and Muhammad." Thsi does no explain the remocal of bulleting which was for stylistic consistency, and let's be clear. It is Muslim apologists, not some generic "many scholars", who say this. Also user NanaKesh17 seems to have suddenly materialized from nowhere to make these edits. Paul B (talk) 23:33, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
That information seems to be well sourced. You shuold double check the reference before writing yuor comment here. The information for the claim is from all Sanskrit University professor/doctors. If you want more sources than go research for an reliable source or any Wiki notable like Zakir Naik or Abdul Haq Vidyarthi. The Muhammad was alerady discussed earilier, you should leave comments into the Muhammad section not here. It seems to be better sourced than the Adolf Hitler or the Nazi claims. --NanaKesh17 (talk) 23:43, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Not really, the notability of these people has not been confirmed. Their books are published by Islamic presses. The footnotes make no sense. The last one does not even refer to a book. The text mentions a book called "Muhammad as the Final Avatar" which is not footnoted and which cannot be found on Google. The only edit I made was to a add a bullet-point for stylistic consistency, so I've no idea what you are arguing. However the whole passage is problematic. Paul B (talk) 23:51, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
That book was researched by the Sanskrit University and other Academys it says in the ref. Thats equally sourced next to the others that are in that section. You can always find more refs and investagate more eventually all sources point to the same summary. --NanaKesh17 (talk) 00:03, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
There should be some kind of section or an list of comparision for the claims of Kalki and the prophcies to claim the title Kalki. --NanaKesh17 (talk) 30:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
There's no reason why thee should not be a section on this claim, but the footnotes have to be clear and the arguments have to be fully attributed to the relevant writers. I've tried to clarify the prose. Please indicate what his book "Muhammad as the Final Avatar" is and who wrote and publishes it. Paul B (talk) 00:04, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Its already written in the ref. and another ref that can be provided is the Kalki Puran which lists the details of the Kalki and situations. The book Muhammad in Hindu Scriptures was researched by Sanskrit Scholars who listed their contact names and areas, if you want to know more go ask them i dont know how much more sources you need. The Sanskrit academy only researches sanskrit thats the most reliable in religious situations. --NanaKesh17 (talk) 00:29, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
You are not making any sense. There was no book of that title in the footnotes! There was a book called Muhammad in Hindu Scriptures not a book called "Muhammad as the Final Avatar" . You need to cite the details. It is published by a Muslim press. That Muhammad is mentioned in the Puranas is not disputed, but these texts are not reliably ancient. There are no "contact names". Paul B (talk) 10:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I've done my best to find out what this book is that is being referred to here apparently under two separate titles: which keep changing from text to footnote. This seems to be the most reliable information about it [2]. It seems that this very obscure 1970 booklet has been picked up by publishers of Islamic apologetics and translated and reprinted under various titles. The author's status seems to increase dramatically to that of a university professor and international scholar through some form of Chinese Whispers. The text referred to is not, as far as I can tell, published by "Sanskrit Prayag University" (indeed Prayag did not have a university until decades after the book was originally published). It seems to be published - in the English version - by the Islamic Book Trust.[3] As far as I can see this is the only source for the Muhammad-Kalki connection, though I don't doubt that several Islamic writers have repeated its claims. Paul B (talk) 11:14, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

It's possible that the contributing editor got the information from this geocities site which reproduces an English version of the text along with some of the names that appeared in fragmentary footnotes.[4] Paul B (talk) 12:19, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. We can go on and on about other religions claiming that they are Kalki. I'm sure every other religion and people who support such theories have come up with how their Messiah/God/Prophet/etc is/was Kalki. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.247.42.242 (talk) 18:13, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

removal of material

I have started this discussion in the hopes of coming to an agreement. Let me start by asking why the book cover is being removed along with the other material? --Ghostexorcist (talk) 18:55, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

For me, the book cover and the reference to Savitri Devi are not an issue. I do have a problem however with coming to a page about Kalki to find a reference on some politician called Alejandro Biondini in Argentina who reportedly claims to be Kalki, with an external link to the site of a political party in Spanish. It certainly looks like spam to me, to put it mildly. Hoverfish Talk 19:55, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Why has Savitri Devi's conception of Hitler as Kalki been removed? Not only is it a Kalki Claimant by someone(Savitri Devi, not Adolph Hitler if there was confusion. The Claimant is by her for Hitler. And one could argue he is probably, if they consider The Kalki Prophesy a little more esoteric and researched his life well enough, e.g. it says Kalki will eat olives and dates as staple food, as it says in a section of this talk on Muhammad as Kalki quoting, this could be taken esoterically as vegitarianism, as Adolph Hitler was a vegetarian, dates and olives meaning fruits and vegtables, or maybe Adolph Hitler did eat precicly those.) well respected in Neo-Nazi and Esoteric Nazi circles, but well respected outside those frameworks as a writer and by many in the the LNSGP(Libertarian National Socialist Green Party). Her works were substantial the in non-Strasserist(spelling error?) Nazism revival. Yet her theory now appears deleted. Why is this? HistoricalRevisionist (talk) 01:18, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

is Muhammad the Kalki?

One Muslim preacher has claimed that Muhammad is thought of as being the Kalki avatar. This lacks credence. Firstly, Kalki avatar refers to the incarnation of Lord Vishnu who is revered as the Supreme God by many Hindus, while Muhammad is merely a messenger of God. Hindus do not have any objection if muslims want to worship Muhammad as an incarnation of Vishnu. Secondly, there is no mention of Muhammad in any of the Hindu sacred scriptures. Bogus claims have arosen either from convenient translations or by usage of unreliable sources.

This looks very biased, instead of just stating that "there is no mention of Muhammad in any of the Hindu sacred scriptures", you could provide evidence as to why you are saying this. And I also read that a Hindu also claimed this, so "One Muslim preacher" isn't very accurate. This does not look biased at all. There ARE NO hindu books mentioning Muhammad. Does he have to print text of the hundreds of books as evidence?

Ismaali Khoja - most are Gujaratis - believe that age of Kali will be ruled from Mecca. Please note that personality of Kali is different than the Vishnu Avatar Kalki which will come 427,000 years from now. (annonymous)

Muhammad could claim the title Kalki, according to many University professors in the book Muhammad in Hindu Scriptures and Muhammad in World Scriptures Vol I and III claims Muhammad as Kalki, it could be true. It would be very rare to conclude that any Nazi or Adolf Hitler to even come close to Kalki. Even though it is mentioned, it is not proper because the 13 Prophocies could not be successfuly completed by Hitler or any Nazi. Some people even claim Guru Gobind Singh as Kalki Avatar however that needs to be researched. Most sources on this article are Websites not Books those are not reliable as the Books. for further information you can see this link http://www.aaiil.org/text/books/others/abdulhaqvidyarthi/muhammadworldscriptures3/muhammadworldscriptures3.pdf

Its an PDF link but all the refs are provided for the claims and in that website www.aaiil.org you can find more books and more reliable sources. they have great books --Padan (talk) 03:17, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

It is my opinion that this article should be about the Hindu origin and use of Kalki. All other connections, whether to Hitler or Muhammad or anyone, no matter how well sourced or not, are trivial to the topic and should not be a subsection here. A user who unfortunately doesn't seem inclined to discuss here had the idea of creating a new page for people claiming or believed to be the Kalki (see article's edit history). I consider this to be the correct way of going about it. Hoverfish Talk 14:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Yeah ok, but Muhammad is already mentioned in the Hindu Scriptures not Hitler, Nazis or whomever. Its under Modern Day claims of Kalki so its good enough for an notable. Within the scholars and researchers most claim Muhammad, but in some areas some believe Guru Gobind Singh but according to the number of prophocies and the names and situataions, Muhammad would out range more claims then Guru Gobind. Still, Gobind Singh is not even mentioned in the Hindu Scriptures so its not much of an good notable claim. --Padan (talk) 23:53, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
This is not a forum for the speculation of whether Muhammad or Hilter is Kalki. The discussion page is used for the betterment of the article. Please feel free to add material to the page, but refrain from forum-like chatting. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 00:01, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Its most wise to mention somebody who is already mentioned in the Hindu Scriptures. Not no Bahá'u'lláh, Adolf Hitler or Aga Khan, who has no origin within the Hindu Scriptures. In this situation theres only two who should be notable enough for this either Muhammad or/n Guru Gobind Singh. According to the researchers, professors, doctors or any Sanskrit Scholar they claim Muhammad as the unbeatable Kalki with the completion of all numbers and situations of the Kalki Puran. The most popular known Modern Day Kalki, is Muhammad along with many supports for claims. Plus all these others who are in that section only have website sources not no scholar research nothing. --Padan (talk) 00:04, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

There is no doubt that Muhammad isn't Kalki as after Kalki's arrival there will be no sin left on this planet.While it is residing till now, undoubtedly he hasnot arrived —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.254.235.253 (talk) 00:06, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Shambalam is a kingdom on modern orissa, India

Read this article in wikipedia on sambalpur. Please do not change anything there. That weblink is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambalpur —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ureddy (talk • contribs) 00:24, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

kalki willbe born when he is supposed to ,but the please don't compare to any person.our life span is too tiny than that of these yughas so we can't just talk of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.184.151.55 (talk) 13:30, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

KALKI is lord Virabhadra he takes birth in human form as Madiwala .

Madiwala Machideva took birth in the twelveth century with Basvanna as religious reformer in karnataka he wrote vachanas ending with god name kalideva.sharanas of that century called him as incarnation of lord virabhadra.he used to carry sword with him with yellow showl which is the symbol of lord kalki.he took his next birth in 17th,19th &20th century as Madiwala in various places north karnataka. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.179.16.12 (talk) 14:18, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Date discrepancy

There is a discrepancy between this article and another Wikipedia article entitled "Gupta Empire." In the section of this article entitled "The prophecy and its origins" the first sentence reads:

"One of the earliest mentions of Kalki is in the Vishnu Purana, which is dated generally to be after the Gupta Empire around the 17th century B.C.[4] " 17th century B.C. is 1700  to 1601 years before birth of Christ. (Before common era)

However the Wikipedia article on the Gupta Empire describes it as after birth of Christ:  "The Gupta Empire (Sanskrit: गुप्त साम्राज्य, Gupta Sāmrājya) was an ancient Indian empire which existed from approximately 320 to 550 CE and covered much of the Indian Subcontinent.[1] "

Avvocato53 (talk) 00:20, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Mess

I have rewritten a large portion of the article and cleaned it up significantly. The dominant part of the article right now is about 5-7 pages of transcribed puranas with word for word translation and an anonymous Wikipedia author's own Hindi lessons and commentary. This obviously classifies as original research. I am going to filter through it for useful information and parse it down significantly. Parsh (talk) 09:25, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

12th day of Aries?

As of 2009, the sun appears in Aries from April 19th to May 13th. This would make the 12th day of Aries be May 1st or so.

This is is an important Sabbath in the Wheel of the Year, called Beltane. It is also known as May Day, and it is approximately 40 days after Ostara, AKA Easter. Interestingly, the Ascension of Jesus takes place 40 days after easter.

Kalki is said to ride on a White Horse, just like the hero from Revelations. Interestingly, there are said to be 25 Kalki Kings of Shambhala. If the 25th is the final Avatar, there would be 24 elders before him.

Also, it is interesting that he is born in the sign of the Lamb. This is perhaps related to stories of the golden fleece as well.

Blazeitup52 (talk) 17:01, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

I bet I can guess how your night went, leading right up to the moment you posted that comment. Parsh (talk) 11:33, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
The Ascension of Jesus was the last day of the Omer, whihc if the Lunar and Solar cycles where In-sync would be in June. Passover would be the 14th of Aries. The Villain of Revelation also rides a White horse, as seen when the first Seal is opened.

Good old discussion that I would like to reopen

I do'nt think "Modern variations of the Kalki prophecy" is a good title as thesse aren't as much newly made prophesies, but modern claimants of fulfilling the Hindu one that is old. I propose a page called Kalki Claimants and then a link toward that with see also. Or another possibility "People who have bee considered Kalki." See for example os this...

Maybe this would make this page about Hindu idea and still there can be a full page about others that want to be Kalki or of whom others have claimed this of them. Vedantahindu (talk) 12:42, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

There is not enough material to make a separate page. It would be deleted in a heart beat by an admin or another editor who doesn't think it meets the notability guidelines. I don't own this page at all, I'm just protecting it from people who try to slant the page towards their own point of view. For a similar situation see this thread. You will see that an admin had to step in to stop an overzealous editor who deleted material based on his own bias. I only want the page to be balanced. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 19:01, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Some do clame and some do not clame. It says Alejandro Biondini does claim this. But do not think Bahá'u'lláh because he was of Islam faith. But maybe considered covers these too more than claimants. In article it could say clamed by themselves or others.Vedantahindu (talk) 16:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Those were xcellent point by Vedantahindu and Ghostexorcist from 4 years prior. There should be a subsection listing people who have claimed the title of Kalki -- this would be more comprehensive and complete. I am first rewriting it, but this would be a good direction for down the road, especially if anyone has specific knowledge (PLEASE: do not start copying and pasting the proselytizing Islamic propaganda pamphlet that this article was vandalized with a few years ago). Parsh (talk) 11:24, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
Looking more closely at the article, I realize this has already been done in the section 'Modern Interpretations of Kalki prophecy'. Cleaned it up.Parsh (talk) 15:04, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

England, future birth place of Kalki's wife?

From Indian point of view, "Island of Lions" can means Punjab (region of Brave persons) or Lucknow (city of Nawaab...as Lion is also Nawaab(king) of forest). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.205.108.151 (talk) 17:17, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I started this discussion because the anon editor who continues to add material to the page (based on a synthesis of two sources) has failed to do so. I have invited them to the talk page at least twice on the different I.P. addresses that they keep on hopping to.

So far the editor's only evidence is the fact that a prophetic work says Kalki's wife will be born in a place known as the "Island of the Lion." Since England is also known by the same name, they just assume this must be the place. Instead of finding a source explicitly making the connection, they have, in the past, just linked to a picture of the British flag and, more recently, linked to a web page that does not mention Kalki at all. I have tried to explain proper citing procedure, but they have chosen to ignore this.

A good source would be one by a recognized Indian philosophy/religion or comparative literature professor who actually suggests Kalki's wife will be born in England --Ghostexorcist (talk) 16:36, 18 September 2010 (UTC).

Agree this has no base in reality...there is clearly and uneducated assumption being introduced into the article.Moxy (talk) 16:47, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

~ Kalki Purana, I[3], Verses 9 & 10

The wife of Kalki is named Padma who lives in Sinhala, which is commonly known as Sri Lanka. However, as I mentioned before, this may be an allegorical reference to an island nation, separate from his own country. In his endeavour to conquer the "Buddhists" and other kings, he will be assisted by two kings allied to him, apart from the king of the country in which he is born to and many other friends.

http://ww-iii.tripod.com/hindu.htm

England is a island with fresh waters.
Heathrow airport is the worlds busiest airport.
Queen of england has lions on its flags.
Buckingham palace has huge gates and beautiful stuctures.
All the countries in Commonwealth their flags are also there in one of the palaces.
England is in top 25 highly dense population per square mile.
Wife of kalki is fairer then him, makes perfect sence she is british and thus white.

http://kalkiyug.blogspot.com/2009/11/is-lord-kalki-predicted-in-book-of.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by September2010 (talk • contribs) 17:19, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Blogs and personal pages are never reliable sources so may not be used. This isn't open to a consensus discussion. Yworo (talk) 17:23, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
The worst part about the quote is that it is a comment from a random reader of the blog. It is just an assumption. The person who wrote the comment could possibly even be the anon-turned-newly registered user who keeps on adding this cruft to the page. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 22:51, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
Probably. I think (hope) they are gone now. Yworo (talk) 22:55, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
I sense WP:OR in the arguments of September2010. Also, the ref is not a WP:RS. --Redtigerxyz Talk 10:31, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

"This island was situated far across the ocean, and thus surrounded by water on all sides It was thickly populated, many airplanes were seen there, and it shone with the splendor of countless jewels and gold"

"The city was decorated with many palaces and massive gates On top of the gates and palaces were placed colorful flags that increased the beauty of the island There were assembly houses, raised platforms, memorials, domed buildings, and concrete roads Indeed, there was no end to the beauty of this magnificent city" - 

Sri Kalki Purana by Sri Krsna Dvaipayana Vyasadeva  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.248.142 (talk) 14:56, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

krishna is kalki

i think the lord krishna is kalki. because he is god and it's only possible for him to play kalki avatar's role — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.230.104.8 (talk) 19:44, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

@103.230.104.8: If you want to include that in the article, you'll need to provide a reliable third party source. – FenixFeather (talk)(Contribs) 18:39, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

The link for note 13

http://ww-iii.tripod.com/hindu.htm

The page only stays for like 30 seconds and then redirected to some lame Nostradamus page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.144.34.210 (talk) 10:06, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Good catch. I'm not sure if it's even a reliable source in the first place but I'll add an archive link for now. – FenixFeather (talk)(Contribs) 18:41, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Kalki avatar

I like reading about this topic. Very knowledgeable information. My question is that ..can anyone give any documentry proof or some important information? Like it seems like we are at the end of kal yug and demons are all over. Everyone knows and all those things were mentioned in kal yug are happening these days. So please provide some information...about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.203.159.174 (talk) 14:08, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Jesus's 2nd Coming is EXTREMELY Similar to Kalki so, kalki will born on 1st january. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.56.26.214 (talk) 09:09, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Massive re-wording needed

The "When will Kalki come?" section feels like it's been taken word-for-word out of an ISKCON (Hare Krishna) text on the subject. I suspect that it might be plagiarized. That section needs to be heavily reworded and redone to conform to NPOV and to reflect the prophecy of Kalki as seen by all Hindus, not just ISKCON.

Also, what is with that stuff at the end about Kalki already being alive today? The way it is written, it feels like a prophecy itself, not a Wikipedia article about a prophecy. --141.156.221.9 21:27, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)


It depends on the Hindu sect, but some believe Kalki was born as Ayya Vaikundar in 1809 CE. "This" Kalki was born from a mixture of a stillborn baby, the soul of the god Sampooranathevan, and the "ultimate Spirit" of Vishnu. There is even a tale which he clinses the earth of witches and demons (if I remember correctly). (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 03:42, 7 July 2006 (UTC))
I think it would be good if someone knowledgable can separate the info from the Hindu and Buddhist sides, as they vary quite a bit. Apparently, even within the various Hindu traditions there are considerable differences... I could try to help with the Buddhist view, but don't know anything about the Hindu perspective. rudy 11:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Jesus's 2nd Coming (Very Similar to Hinduism)

Hey guys, you should check this out! According to the Book of Revelations in the Bible, Jesus's 2nd Coming is EXTREMELY Similar to Kalki's (the Avatar of Lord Vishnu) 10th Final Coming:

  • BIRTH DATE OF LORD KALKI :- 1ST JANUARY*

"In Revelations (19.11-16, & 19-21) it states:

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, but no man knew but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat on the horse." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.56.26.214 (talk) 09:29, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Clean up

Wow, this was a hot mess. I cleaned up some of the cruft. Bearian (talk) 18:31, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Hey Wikipedia

Can you take it a bit easy with what people write on these pages —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phalanxpursos (talk • contribs) 22:49, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

The Muhammad info was uncited and a previous editor provided this webpage that disproves the connection between Kalki and the prophet. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 00:00, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

In the article, there is a mention that the last occurrence of Jupiter, Venus, and the moon aligning was early in 2012. This should be changed to July 1st 2015 https://patch.com/new-york/southeast/venus-jupiter-conjunction-visible-july-1 http://www.seasky.org/astronomy/astronomy-calendar-current.html --199.48.35.40 (talk) 21:56, 1 July 2015 (UTC)Kyle Street

Guru Gobind Singh

Needs ref: removed " Guru Gobind Singh of Sikh origin is claimed to be the Kalki Avatar. "--Redtigerxyz (talk) 13:36, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Is it so? Hs0211 (talk) 18:53, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Is it so? Hs0211 (talk) 18:53, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

When we see many sinful acts before our eyes; when we see adultery here and there; when we see that thieves and robbers are enjoying; when we see that poor and hardworking people are not getting even proper food; when we see that everyone is insecure in this society; when we see our politicians living corrupt lives; when we see world powers attacking on armless countries; when we see powerful countries shedding blood of innocent children, women and men of other countries; what can we do? We think that we have not enough power to fight against all these evils. We think that we cannot save ourselves from sinful-powers. Is there not a light of hope for poor people? If so, this world would be like a hell. No one would be happy with anyone. Powerful, crazy and inhuman powers would rule. The poor would suffer forever. Some intellectuals show the light of hope. They tell people to believe in golden future. The time is coming when innocent people will find themselves secure and happy. The time is coming, when a meupiah will come into this world to save the innocents. The time is coming, when the savior will give us a chance to live happily. Yes, this makes us happy. We think that there will be a time, when we would live a secure life; when we would enjoy freedom. But, this is not enough. We are human. We want to take revenge from cruel persons; from inhuman politicians/kings. We want to see them being killed. We want to see their palaces being destroyed. The old 'rishis' of 'Bharat' (India) knew these feelings of harassed people. They came forward to give people the hope. They said that the messiah would come and punish the culprits. The messiah will come, but it will take much time. People asked, "When will our defender come into this world?" 'Rishis' replied, "There are sins in this world, but there could be more sinful life. You must be happy that you are not living in the world, which is most sinful hell. The savior will come, when there would be more and more sins". 'Rishis' told that in the end of 'Kalyug', the savior will come to save this world and punish the culprits. The end of 'Kalyug' will be the beginning of 'Satyug'. 'Nehkalank Avtaar' will be the savior. 'Nehkalank' is also known as 'Kalki'. This is predicted by 'Vishnu-puraan', a famous Hindu religious book. There is a city of 'Sambhal' in U.P. state of India. It is said that 'Kalki Avtaar' will appear first in this city. In 'Sri Dasam Granth Sahib', story of 'Kalki avtaar' has been given. We must know the fact that 'Sri Dasam Granth Sahib' is not predicting about arrival of 'Kalki Avtaar'. Insteed, it is just translating the believe of 'Vashanav sampardaaye'. It is not always easy to translate. When I read these lines in 'Sri Dasam Granth Sahib', I do not know how to translate: - "Baagarhdang beerang jaagarhdang jootey. taagarhdang teerang chhaagarhdang chhootey. Saagarhdang suaarang jaagarhdang joojhey. Kaagarhdang kope raagarhdang roojhey.(361). {page 593}. Even though, I tried to give meanings of some words used in 'Kalki Avtaar' in 'Dasam Granth'. Please forgive me if I make a mistake. Hummm…. I usually make a lot of mistakes. In this article/post, we will try to understand the point of 'Sri Dasam Granth Sahib' about 'Kalki Avtaar'. When quoting from 'Sri Dasam Granth', the brackets ( ) have been used to write stanza number and the brackets { } have been used to write page number. When will 'Kalki Avtaar' come into this sinful world? When there would be sins and sins everywhere. Mother will have sexual relation with her own son. Father will enjoy his own daughter; brother will enjoy his own sister. Here is the actual words of 'Kalki Avtaar' in 'Sri Dasam Granth Sahib': - "Bhaant bhaant tan ho utpaata. Putreh sej sovat lai maata.(2)." {page 571} And, "Suta pita tan ramat nishanka. Bhagni bharat bharaat kah anka. Bharaat behan tan karat bihaara. Istri taji sakal sansaara.(3)." {page 571} There will be many sects. With a new day, there will be a new religion, but those religion will not live long: - "Ek divas chalai koyu mat doyey dios chalaahengey…..(22)." {page 573} And, "Naye nit matang uthhai ek eking. Karai nit anarathang anekang anekang.(49)." {page 575} [matang=believes, religions, sects] The 'Gurus' of such religions will call themselves 'the God':- "Aap aap parbraham kahai hai. Neech ooch kah sees na naihai….(12)." {page 572} There will be no 'dharam' in this world. There will be sins and sins on every step. Even Gurus will have bad relations with their Sikhs wives. And Sikhs will sleep with their Guru's wife: - "Dharam bharam udyo jahaan tahaan paap pag pag hoyenge. Nij sikh naar guru ramai, gur daara so sikh soyenge….(25)." {page 573} People will not show respect for their old religious books (as 'Vedas' for Hindus and 'Kuraan' for Muslims): - "Nahi Bed baak pramaan hain. mat bhinn bhinn bakhaan hain.(61). Naa kuran ko mat lehnge. na puraan dhekhan dehnge.(62)." {page 575} People will worship stones : - "Paahan pujai hain, ek na dhiyai hain, mat ke adhak adhera…..(71)." {page 576} And, "Paahan ko su karat sabh bandan…(79)." {page 576} In that time, the saints will be frightened. They will be sad. Sinful people will rule and there will everything in their houses: - "Saadhu satras. Jah tah udaas. Papeen raj. Greh sarab saaj.(104)." {page 578} The distressed earth goes to the God (Kaal purakh) and prays before him: - "Paapaakraant dhra bhyee, pal na sakat thhaharaye. Kaal purakh ko dhyan dhar rovat bhyee banaaye….(139)." {page 581} To save the poor, holy God comes into this world. At the end of 'Kalyug', there will be 'Satyug'. To destroy the evil powers, He will come: - "Deenan kee rachhchha nimat kar hai aap upaaye. Param purakh paavan sada aap pragat hai aaye. Aap pragat hai aaye, deen rachhchha ke kaaran. Avtaarees vtaar dhara ke bhaar utaaran.(139). Kaljug ke anteh samai Satjug laagat aad. Deenan kee rachhchha leeye dhar hai roop anaad. Dhar hai roop anaad kaleh kavatak keh bhaaree. Shatran ke naasaarth namit avtaar avtaaree.(140)." {page 581} To destroy all the sins (sinful people), He will be called 'Kalki Avtaar'. He will kill them with sword. The city of 'Sambhal'(in India) is lucky. Har ji (Kalki Avtaar) will come to Harmandir (Sahib): - "Paap sambooh binaasan ko Kalkee avtaar kahaavaingey. Turkachhchh turang sapachhchh bado kar kaardhh Kripaan khapaavaingey. Nikasey jim kehar parbat te tas sobh divaalay paavaingey. Bhal bhaag bhaya eh Sambhal ke har joo Harmandar aavaingey.(141)." {page 581} The line 'Bhal bhaag bhaya eh Sambhal ke har joo Harmandar aavaingey.' has been used 16 times in 'Kalki Avtaar' in 'Sri Dasam Granth Sahib'. Unlike 'Narsingh Avtaar', 'Kalki Avtaar' will be hand some and smart: - "Roop anoop saroop maha lakh dev adev lajaavaingey….(142)." {page 481} And, "Roop anoop saroop maha ang dekh anang lajaavaingey….(151)." {page 582} He will ride on a horse: - "Khag kaadhh abhang nishang hathhi, rann rang turang nachaavaingey…..(144)." {page 581} 'Kalki Avtaar' will use several weapons: - "Teer tufang kamaan surang during nikhang suhaavaingey. Barchhi ar bairakh baan dhuja pat baat lagey phaharavaingey….(147)." {page 582} And, "Kauch kripaan kataaree kamaan su rang nikhang chhakaavaingey. Barchhee ar dhhaal gada parso, kar sool trishool bhramaavaingey. At krudhatt hvai rann moordhan mo, sar ogh praogh chalaavaingey. Bhal bhaag bhya eh Sambhal ke, har joo harmandar aavaingey.(148)." { page 582} 'Kalghi' is the ornament for head. He, who wears 'kalghi' on his turban, is called 'kalghidhar'. 'Kalki Avtaar' will be 'Kalghidhar' : - "Kalghi gajgaah gada barchhee geh paan kripaan bhramaavaingey. Jag paap sambooh binaasan ko, Kalki Kal dharma chalaavaingey……(154)." {page 583} Interestingly, from now, past tense has been used, as if all these already have been happened. I think the author did not want people to wait for 'Kalki Avtaar'. He used past tense, so that people could take it as a normal story. I believe that when people take up arms to fight against unreligious and cruel political powers, 'Kalki Avtaar' himself is there. Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj says, "Farida, Khaalak khalak meh, khalak vasai rabb maahey". (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Mahla 5, page 1381) {Translation: O Fareed! the Creator is in the Creation, and the Creation abides in God.}. If so, then people fighting against cruel political powers are actually 'Kalki Avtaar' fighting against the bad governments. According to 'Kalki Avtaar' (in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib), There was a Brahman. He was very talented man. He used to worship the goddess daily, who killed 'Dhoomar lochan', a devil. "Teh bipp ek. Jeh gun anek.(163). {page 583} Nit japat bipar debi prachand. Jeh keen dhoomra lochan dukhand….(164)." {page 583} His wife was a bad woman: - "Greh huti taas istree kuchaar….(166)." {page 584} She wanted to stop her husband worshipping the goddess. When she failed to do so, she complained before the king, who was against the worshipping of goddess. The king got the Brahman arrested and said him not to worship goddess: - "Triyaa baach pat so. Keh kaaj moorh sevant dev…..(167)." {page 584} And, "Tab kurhi naar chit ros thhaan. Sambhal naresh tan kahi aan.(170). Poojant deve deeno dikhaye. Tehh gaha kop kar shoodar raaye. Geh taahey adhik deenee sazaaye. Kai hanat toh, kai jap naa maaye.(171)." {page 584} Brahman said, "Even if you cut me into two pieces, I will not left the worship: - "Keejai dukhand, nahi tajon sev. Sun leho saach tuh kaho dev. Kiyon na hohey took tan ke hazaar. Nahi tajon paanyey devi udaar.(173)." {page 584} When they tried to kill him, Brahman prayed before God. God said him that He would save him and kill the many enemies. Then with a great whistling sound, there appeared 'Kalki Avtaar': - "Jab lagey den tehh tegh taan. Tab keeyo Kaal ko bipar dhyaan.(176). Jab keeyo chit mo bipar dhayaan. Tehh deen daras tan kaal aan. Nahi karo chint chit maanjh ek. Tav het shatra han hai anek.(177). Tab pari shoonk bhoraih majhaar. Upjyo aan Kalkivataar…..(178)." {page 584} With anger, 'Kalki Avtaar' killed four hundred soldiers with an axe: - "Kar kop Kal Avtaar. Geh paan ajaan kuthhaar. Tankek keen prahaar. Bhat jhoojh gayo sai chaar.(188)." {page 585} 'Kalki Avtaar' will be angry. He will use various weapons: - "Kalki Avtaar risaavaingey. Bhat ogh praogh giraavaingey. Bahu bhaantan shashtra prahaaraingey. Ar ogh praogh sanghaaraingey.(307)." {page 590} In the battlefield, Sri Kalki Avtaar killed the king of 'Sambhal' city: - "Sambhar naresh mareyo nidaan….(451)."{page 601} Kalki Avtaar had his own army: - "Buleyo sarab sainang. Karey rakt nainang.(456)."{page 601} After killing the king of Sambhal, Kalki Avtaar started to conquer the world. He attacked on Kabul, Babul, Kandhaar, Iraq, Balkh, and Rome etc. and killed those who dared to fight against him: - "Hanney Kaablee Baablee beer baankey. Kandhaaree Harevee Iraaqi nisaakey. Bali Baalkhee Roh Roomi rajeeley. Bhajey traas kai kai bhaye band dheeley.(462)." {page 601}. Kalki killed the enemies in Kashmir, Bangas, Russia etc.: - "Katey Kaashmeeree hanney kashatvaaree. Kupey kaashkaaree badey chhatra-dhaaree. Bali Bangasee gorbandee gadrejee. Mahaa-moorh maajindra raanee majejee.(484). Hanney Roos Toosee kritee chitra jodhee. Hathhey Parasuyyad su khoobaan sakrodhee….(485)." {page 603}. Kalki Avtaar killed the enemies in Bijapur, Golkunda, Dravid, Tilangaana, Vaidarbh, Bengal, Orissa (all in India) and Nepal: - "Hanney beer Bijapuri Golkundi…..(504)." {page 604}. "Drahee Dravarhey tej taa te Tilangi. Hatey Suratee jang bhangee phirangee.(505). Chapey chaand raja chaley chanad baasee. Badey beer Baidarbh sanros raasee……(506)." {page 604} "Maagadh maheep mandey mahaan. Das chaar chaar vidya nidhaan. Bangee Kuling Angee ajeet. Morang agar Naipal abheet.(508)." {page 605} He got victory over China, and then he went to North: - "Cheen Macheen chheen jab leena. Uttar desh payyana keena…..(548)." {page 607}. Thus, Sri Kalki Avtaar saved the saints and killed anti-saints: - "Sant ubaar asant khapaayey.(550)." {page 608} Now, 'Satyug' was just coming near. All people heard about this. It pleased the minds of saints. They sang the glory of God: - "Satjug aayo. Sabh sun paayo. Mun mann bhaayo. Gun gan gaayo.(553)." {page 608} But unfortunately, after conquering the world, Kalki became proud. He forgot the God: - "Jag jeeteyo jab sarab. Tab baadhhiyo at garab. Diya Kaal Purakh beesaar. Eh bhaant keen bichaar.(583). Bin moh doosar na aur. As maaneyo sab thhaur. Jag jeet keen gulaam. Aapan japaayo naam.(584)." {page 610}. Kalki left the worship of God. Then the God made an other man, who killed Kalki Avtaar: - "Nah Kaal Purakh japant. Nah dev jaap bhanant. Tab Kaal Dev risaayey. Ik aur purakh banaayey.(586). Rach as 'Mehdi Meer'. Riswant haathh hameer. Tehh taun ko badh keen. Pun aap mo kiy leen.(587)." {page 610}. After sometime, even Mehdi Meer became victim of 'proud': - "Mehdee bhareyo tab garab. Jag jeeteyo jab sarab….(2)." {'Mehdi', 'Sri Dasam Granth Sahib', page 610}. Now, God made a small insect, which entered into his ear and killed him: - "Ik keet deen upaayey. Tis kaan paithho jaaye.(10). Dhas keet kaanan beech. Tis jeeteyo jim neech. Bahu bhaant de dukh taahey. Eh bhaant maareyo taahey.(11)." {'Mehdi', 'Sri Dasam Granth Sahib', page 610-611}. Thus, we see that 'Sri Dasam Granth' does not say that 'Kalki Avtaar' will come into this world. The story of 'Kalki' has been given as a translation (though with some changes), as stories of other avatars (incarnations) are given. This is 'Chaubees Avtaar' (24 incarnations), so it is natural that the story of 'last and 24th incarnation has been written in Sri Dasam Granth. So, dear Khalsa ji, no Kalki Avtaar will come into this world to save humanity. There is no need of Kalki Avtaar either. Hs0211 (talk) 19:08, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

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The Article

Requesting everyone to stick to WP guidelines and help grow the article with solid, valid and well sourced citations from reputable sources.

Throughout the talk page, A few users have posted how they cleaned up the article and yet somehow its gone back to looking messy due to edits by I.P anons or just careless content formatting. Do pay heed and help anyone who accidentally makes a mess of the article. Thank You. ShotgunMavericks (talk)

Etymology - "destroyer of filth"

The alleged literary meaning destroyer of filth claimed in the very beginning is not sufficiently explained in the Etymology section, in my humble opinion. If kalka means filth, dirt, I wonder why Kalki is interpreted not as dirt, but an opposite, or opponent if it. If "-i" has such meaning, it should be mentioned. —Mykhal (talk) 15:09, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

Regarding the recently added Weapons & Paraphernalia section

@Jroberson108:, Just observed the new section your added.

Weapons & Paraphernalia [Lord Shiva said to Lord Kalki:] This horse was manifested from Garuda, and it can go anywhere at will and assume many different forms. Here also is a parrot that knows everything - past, present, and future. I would like to offer You both the horse and the parrot and so please accept them. By the influence of this horse and parrot, the people of the world will know You as a learned scholar of all scriptures who is a master of the art of releasing arrows, and thus the conqueror of all. I would also like to present You this sharp, strong sword and so please accept it. The handle of this sword is bedecked with jewels, and it is extremely powerful. As such, the sword will help You to reduce the heavy burden of the earth.[26] Thereafter, Lord Kalki picked up His brightly shining trident and bow and arrows and sets out from His palace, riding upon His victorious horse and wearing His amulet.[27]

Although it does seem that you have provided citations, A quick google search shows the same paragraph copied word for word from this website. I couldn't find any other website or book with the same english translations.

https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/8626/how-will-the-kalki-avatar-look-like/11327

Do provide additional citations including a reliable third party source for the english translation and the original devanagari/sanskrit text if possible. ShotgunMavericks (talk) 08:01, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Large quantity of info removed, page protected

I am copying this over from Talk:Jimmy Wales, where it was posted by the IP editor. I'm copying the whole thing, even though it contains hyperbole and fairly silly personal comments (mostly because I don't want to edit the comments, and I suspect Ivanvector can tolerate a little of it), but I really, really encourage the IP editor to discuss more calmly, otherwise human nature will lead almost everyone to say "Meh". Or, if the personal attacks continue, will lead me to block them. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:15, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Begin copied material:

people like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ivanvector feel they are gods! REALLY! Source or no source when these people are given power they decide what can be said and what may not regardless of the source or not. KALKI page is full of source less rubbish but he has the power to let it roll so it rolls, credibility is the key but when these people control wiki what credibility is there in the information? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.216.133 (talk) 15:54, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm still not quite sure what this is about, but I tried to reply on my talk page. IP is upset I semiprotected an article where they were repeatedly removing large blocks of text without explaining why, and they still haven't explained why any of that text should be removed. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:01, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

If you are not sure you should take time to read the page that you decide to take control off!

When you say: they were repeatedly removing large blocks of text without explaining why 

what is this? "A citation, also called a reference, uniquely identifies a source of information missing, not a vandelism."

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kalki&action=history — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.216.133 (talk) 17:06, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

The information I removed is the info without source / citation! what are you doing reverting to baseless info page?

Unlock the page, provide source and citation or revert to my edit which has only removed baseless information! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.216.133 (talk) 17:02, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

End copied material.

There's also some more at my talk page, it should be obvious which section refers to this. And no, I'm not going to lift protection so that this IP can delete most of the article again without explaining why it's such an emergency that every bit of unsourced material needs to be removed from this article immediately and without discussion. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:22, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 October 2017

In the "Padma" section, there is some content that I originally added and someone has changed it to incorrect information according to the reference material that is available online as a PDF. It definitely says "Lord Shiva", not "Lord Vishnu" said this to Padma. http://om-aditya.ru/userfiles/ufiles/purany/sri_kalki_purana.pdf

Change: Lord Vishnu said to Padmavati that you will receive me Lord Narayana as your husband. Anyone (human, demigod, demon, etc.) who desires a conjugal relationship with you will immediately be transformed into a woman, regardless of age. This curse is not applicable to Lord Hari, who is your only husband.[1]

To: Lord Shiva said to Padmavati that you will receive Lord Narayana as your husband. Anyone, whether they be demigods, demons, Nāgas, Gandharvas, Cāraṇas [celestial singers], or anyone else, who desires a conjugal relationship with you will immediately be transformed into a woman, regardless of age. This curse is not applicable to Lord Hari, who is your only husband.[2] Jroberson108 (talk) 00:53, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Bhumipati Das. Sri Kalki Purana. 2nd ed. India: Jai Nitai Press, 2011. pp. 50-51 (ch 4, text 40-44).
  2. ^ Bhumipati Das. Sri Kalki Purana. 2nd ed. India: Jai Nitai Press, 2011. pp. 50-51 (ch 4, text 40-44).
Done SparklingPessimist Scream at me! 00:58, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

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Recent edit-warring

Reminders:

  1. Please do not add content of any kind without an independent, reliable source; your own certainty that something is true is insufficient.
  2. Do not add material worded in a non-neutral way. But do not remove sourced material just because you don't like it, or disagree with how it is worded. Improve it.
  3. It is not permissible to reinterpret sources to mean what you want them to mean, or to combine statements from different sources to reach a novel conclusion not explicitly stated in any of those sources. This is what we call original research, and it is prohibited.
  4. Remember that this is an encyclopedia. It is not a personal blog or a Hindu temple's website. Use an encyclopedic tone, and avoid presenting doctrine as fact. Encyclopedias explain who believes what; they doesn't assert one group's beliefs against those of others.

This is all, and happy editing. :-)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<  08:12, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Very well put SMcCandlish. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EditsWiki (talk • contribs) 11:59, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

+1 to SMcCandlish. I have removed all unsourced OR, blog-like essay, and (strange) self-interpretation of primary sources. I have added summaries from scholarly publications. There is more in the newly cited sources, as well as the links above. Content based on WP:RS would be welcome. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:47, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

New edits

@Ms Sarah Welch: I really don't think we can depend on one author who believes that the concept was likely borrowed "in some measures". I am merging some content to a new section named origins instead. Raymond3023 (talk) 04:20, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

It is not one author. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 04:22, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
Where does Alf Hiltebeitel said "The Kalki mythology in the Puranas may have been affected by ideas from West Asia."? Raymond3023 (talk) 04:29, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
And scholars use the word "differs" when describing the concepts of Purana.[5][6] Raymond3023 (talk) 04:34, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
Harivamsa differs from the Markandeya Purana, states Doniger. Those are two different texts. Relevant here are three types of inconsistencies: within versions of the same text, chapters of the same text and between the texts. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 04:49, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
Do we agree that there is only one reliable source who believes that concept was borrowed "in some measures" not even wholly, Hiltebeitel finds Mitchiner's studies on this to be misleading though.[7][8] That's why I had proposed this all under "origins", including the mention on Mahabharatha, Purana. We can also add a caveat that Hiltebeitel disagrees with Mitchiner. Raymond3023 (talk) 05:01, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
Hiltebeitel disagrees on some points, not all. He praises Mitchiner elsewhere. We do mention Hiltebeitel's related comments about Kalki in the Mahabharata. Actually, it is Gonzales-Reimann 2002 publication I was referring to, where they present Mitchiner style argument, that Kalki story is a late adaptation from a non-Indian source, etc. If I recall correctly, Alf Hiltebeitel mentions them in one of his footnotes as well. So, no Mitchiner is not alone on this. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 05:12, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
I have read them, Hiltebeitel was highly critical of Mitchiner, that's why there should be no dependability on Mitchiner, I also agree with merging all that content to ===Origins=== also read WP:EXCEPTIONAL. Anmolbhat (talk) 05:30, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Gonzales-Reimann 2002 makes no such mention of Kalki. All those religions that Mitchiner mentioned actually came in interaction with Hindus in medieval times. That's really late compared to Mahabharatha (4th century BCE) or Vishnu Purana (4th century). Such theories are best removed or minimized. Raymond3023 (talk) 05:38, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

  • Per WP:EXCEPTIONAL as pointed, I have removed both claims. Mitchiner doesn't even say directly, "in respect of the views", "some measure", that's far from overall concept. Second removal was about Native American' Kukulkan. There are no multiple mainstream sources for supporting either information. Sometimes you can find enough reliable sources for exceptional claims such as Christ was borrowed from Krishna, but the claim has to be highly mainstream. Capitals00 (talk) 08:47, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
Instead of explaining all this, let me strengthen the article over the next few days. You are asking for more sources, than just Mitchiner! I am so delighted! I hope, from now on, you both and others will apply the wikipedia content policies to this article as diligently as you are now. See SMcCandlish's comments above, Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:08, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
The Mahabharata and the Ramayana are not each one consistent text. There are many versions... in and outside the Indian subcontinent! They were interpolated, extrapolated and sections were rewritten, for centuries. The difficulty is we don't know (probably can't know) which one is original. So we must treat all of them with equal respect, equal importance. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:59, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

NPOV (please leave this header in)

Raymond3023: The reliability and inconsistency of the Puranas needs to be summarized for NPOV, because they are the main source of the divergent Kalki mythologies. Please explain why you removed it. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 04:26, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

None of those sources mention Kalki. It is obvious that none of the texts from that old period are unchanged, including any non-Hindu texts but that doesn't have to be mentioned here since they don't mention Kalki. Raymond3023 (talk) 04:29, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
This part may be obvious to you, but not obvious to those new to this field. Further, there is more. There exist inconsistent versions of the same myths in the "several texts all of which are titled the same XYZ Purana" (there are so many of them). This needs to be clarified for NPOV. Yes, we are only talking about Puranas which do cover Kalki, along with zillion others thing. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 04:49, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
Sources have to point it out when they are discussing Kalki, otherwise it is WP:SYNTHESIS. Raymond3023 (talk) 05:01, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
Indeed, we should do no OR:Synthesis. FWIW, I just began working on it and was planning to add much more. If you want to revise and improve it, you are most welcome. I will hold off, to avoid edit conflicts and come back in a few days or weeks, see where we are. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 05:12, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
I have merged the section since it is manageable to talk under one heading. I will be looking more as well what can be restored. Capitals00 (talk) 08:47, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
It makes it confusing! Please don't remove it. Two different discussions. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:10, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Doniger etc

  • The Hindus: An Alternative History is not to be used here or anywhere. Has been criticized by both sides. For example Michael Witzel had called this work "unreliable" and "idiosyncratic", while Aditi Banerjee had said on this book that it is full of mistranslations, errors.[9] And in fact after criticism highlighted by Fowler on a talk page,[10] there was removal of Doniger as source from few articles. While Albrecht Friedrich Weber is totally a colonial source. In those days, historians considered Judaism, Christianity, Islam borrowing everything from Hinduism and even Kaaba being a former Hindu temple. I have just found a dozen of sources saying that those religions borrowed the future savior concept from Hindus.[11][12] But still, that shouldn't be mentioned, because there is no evidence.[13] Also tagged the commentaries of Dimmitt, Cornelia; van Buitenen, they are just repetitions. Capitals00 (talk) 15:17, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
We are not relying on Weber. We are merely stating that he was one of the first to propose Kalki may be a borrowed idea, which is relevant. You removed too much. There are numerous scholars stating this. I am okay with removing THAAH. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:21, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
Capitals00: On THAAH, it is strange that you cited it just yesterday! I reviewed the source, added some more. Now you are complaining about it. Please explain. If it was an inadvertent error of your part, that is fine. Further, please explain all your deletions and tags. Else this comes across as POV pushing and disruptive. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:32, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
There is no reason to describe the concept as borrowed, when there are enough sources that mention it as influencing others and the opinions are not mainstream. We need to state only what is non-controversial. There is rebuttal for the controversial claims but why we should even give weight to fringe theories? Raymond3023 (talk) 15:37, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
Because those sources are not WP:RS nor they represent the mainstream view. From hours of studies, what I have found is that there are a couple of hypothesis about Kalki. There are multiple sources for supporting Kalki has vedic roots and is borrowed from Rudra. Rabiprasad Mishra writes that Rudra's association with destruction of the creation and the elimination of its crisis is similar to the concept of Kalki. Then there are those like Alexandra van der Geer who says that Kalki's concept may have been completely taken from local warrior-heroes. Then there is Damodar Dharmananda Kosambi who said that Kalki has the features of an historical event, disguised as prophesy, he places Kalki after Pushyamitra Suriga and puts the dating of Kalki to first century BCE, this view was also shared by few others. So my point is that there are many theories, that are in fact far less controversial than what you are mentioning, but they shouldn't be mentioned either unless they are mainstream. Capitals00 (talk) 15:45, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
Raymond3023: Do you have any sources to justify your allegation it is fringe? It is mainstream scholarship! Six scholars and different publications... makes it not fringe at all. You have been making wrong allegations without sources, and what they actually state for too long (see above, Gonzales-Reimann does discuss Kalkin, you are wrong). Please start by citing your sources, that will help avoid what comes across as forum-y pretensions and opinions. CapitalsOO: why are they not RS? Ignore THAAH for now. Rest is all by professors, well known and cited in Indology, it is peer-reviewed scholarship. On your allegation, "just found a dozen of sources saying that those religions borrowed the future savior concept from Hindus", you cite self-published sources such as iUniverse... you must be joking! particularly, after that comment on THAAH questioning whether it is a WP:RS. Let us collaborate properly to help improve this article, please. If you indeed found peer-reviewed scholarly publication that states something different, I would welcome you adding the additional summary for NPOV. But right now, you are just deleting and being disruptive. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:52, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
But that would mean that we can point to Schlegel, Lassen, Schliemann, and Blavatsky separately who have made claims contrary to yours. Do you really want to use those sources that fail WP:HISTRS? The article would be full of fringe theories and attract others. What I have removed qualified exceptional claims. I haven't removed undue content but only tagged it. Capitals00 (talk) 16:04, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Capitals00: You are evading my questions and my concerns with your iUniverse etc sources. Could you identify the sources with page number and try a more constructive approach please. I will make another effort to help you. Let us discuss what you tagged or deleted. Consider the following RS, for example. Please explain your concerns:

  • Cornelia Dimmitt, a professor of Theology at Georgetown University; co-authored with J. A. B. van Buitenen, the much-cited recently published Classical Hindu Mythology, deleted or tagged source has been published by Temple University Press
  • John Brockington, a professor of Sanskrit, a lead at the Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies, numerous publications, Oxford University, published by Brill Academic
  • etc

Let us take one at a time. Please explain why you believe that these scholars and their Kalkin-related scholarship is not WP:RS. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:16, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

I didn't used iUniverse on article but the passage that I was referring was correct.
Cornelia Dimmitt is not unreliable but that whole paragraph is undue and repetition, that's why I tagged it because it doesn't bring anything new and has been already said on other paragraphs. Brockington's claims about that particular part aren't so mainstream. Because he says that concept was inspired by Buddhist Maitreya but we know that its opposite,[14] and he points Zoroastrian' future savior without mentioning that it is considered to have been borrowed from Chinese Mythology,[15] and sharing similarities with Vedic deities. You can see I didn't removed Arvind Sharma for a reason, because his views seemed alright. Capitals00 (talk) 16:27, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
Capitals00: Remember, just two days ago, the concern was: is this view from a single source? is it an exceptional claim? See 1, edit summary of 2 etc. The only way to address that concern is to provide additional scholarly sources, and that is what WP:EXCEPTIONAL states,
Quote: Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources.
So, out of respect for your concerns, I provided multiple high-quality sources. I am delighted that you are admitting that "Cornelia Dimmitt is not unreliable" and that "whole paragraph is repetition" etc. This means that at least you now accept that there are multiple sources and Dimmitt/Brockington/etc are RS that we can summarize. Your new concern seems to be that Dimmitt sourced content is "repetitive" and therefore undue, is that it? Any other concerns with Dimmitt source? Let us focus on one source at a time, so we can collaborate and reach a consensus. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:45, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
The information is still just not fit for inclusion. Because most of the sources that I have read in last few hours, which is apparent from the research I have posted above.. I couldn't find even a few sources that would be making those exceptional claims. Sources suggest that some Christian missionaries had simply misconceived and believed that Kalki was borrowed from Christianity.[16] That's why it is better to just leave them out since there are contrary claims as well i.e. other religions borrowing concept from Hindus. I am not sure about Dimmitt that really because I have no access to that source and it is unavailable. Although the information that you have currently added to Dimmitt is repetitive, that's why I had tagged it as undue. Capitals00 (talk) 17:17, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
You keep bringing these non-peer reviewed questionable sources, don't mention the page number, and keep alleging "the numerous sources I have read" without mentioning specific RS and page numbers. This is not helpful. Please reread my comments, explain what is your concern is with Dimmitt. Once you find an RS with page number that states something that challenges Dimmitt, then as I already said, I would welcome a summary of such peer-reviewed scholarly source(s) for NPOV. Wikipedia content policies require us to not "leave out" different or some scholarly sides, they suggest we summarize them to the best of our abilities. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:27, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
Well they do qualify as WP:RS and proves what I was saying, I can't name all sources that I have read, but you can read Britannica article and [17][18] for a general idea that how scholars describe them, and [19] describes how Kalki differs from other concepts. Capitals00 (talk) 18:11, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Allow me to ignore what "you can't name nor will provide your sources". We can't analyze them, nor do they prove or disprove anything since we can't verify what you did not specify, and "trust me" arguments are not constructive. You just provided these four sources, which let us assume are the relevant sources and provided in good faith and to the best of your competence. Let me quote these, since we may be headed to the DRN / ANI / ARB process (which I hope we can avoid through discussion and collaboration). Your four sources are:

  • Source 1, James L. Christian: This is page 597, published by Cengage. It mentions Messaih, Maitreya, etc. The relevant lines, "In Hinduism, a messaih named Kalki will make his appearance (...)". These lines do not contradict any of the Dimmitt etc scholarly views you have tagged/removed, or state anything that this article does not summarize.
  • Source 2, Robert Ellwood: This is page 122, published by Bloomsbury. It mentions Aesir, Christian knights, etc. The relevant lines, "In Hinduism, at the end of the Kaliyuga (...)",. These lines do not contradict any of the Dimmitt etc scholarly views you have tagged/removed, or state anything that this article does not summarize.
  • Source 3, Winfried Corduan: This is page 187, published by Wipf. It mentions Zoroaster, etc. The relevant lines starting with, "As I explained above, Hinduism has devised a cyclical theory of time (...)". Again, nothing there contradicts any of the Dimmitt etc scholarly views you have tagged/removed, or state what this article already does not summarize.
  • Source 4, Britannica: starts with "Kalkin, also called Kalki, final avatar (incarnation) of (...)". Once again, nothing there contradicts any of the Dimmitt etc scholarly views you have tagged/removed, or state something what this article already does not summarize.

None of these explain your actions or tags. Would you please specifically identify what is in any of these four sources [a] that contradict Dimmitt/Brockington/etc scholarship, or [b] what you want to add to this article for NPOV? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:54, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Contradiction is that those sources provided by Capitals00 don't mention the fringe theories about the origins on Kalki, and we shouldn't either. Raymond3023 (talk) 02:36, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
How is that a contradiction? Silence is not a contradiction. Silence does not mean a confirmation, nor does it mean a denial. Those sources are not alleging to be a complete coverage either, nor refuting or calling anything fringe. Please don't (mis)interpret what the source is stating and not stating. Right now, your "fringe allegations" despite multiple RS, and tenuous comments are coming across as vague nonsense and WP:TE, sorry. You may want to reread what our NPOV policy states, the "Articles must not take sides, but should explain the sides, fairly and without editorial bias" part. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 08:09, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
You certainly took sides when you claimed that this is a borrowed concept and then cited unreliable sources. A lot of fringe theories are also found in reliable sources, but since they contradict the mainstream view, they are definitely going to be omitted. We would end up saying "Some say that x copied x from x, but others say x themselves copied this x. Although there is no evidence about either and origins are obscure." It is best not to put it. Raymond3023 (talk) 08:13, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
You allege Hiltebeitel, Mitchiner, Dimitt, etc "unreliable sources"! why? Please explain. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 08:20, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
Not any of them, only the information that I had quoted above. Raymond3023 (talk) 08:29, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
Again vague. Are you alleging they are unreliable sources, or are you now accepting once for all they are reliable sources? Please do see sections 2.6 and 2.11 of WP:TE, because your "cited unreliable sources" allegation is getting tiresome and disruptive to the due process. What did you quote from which source and when.... please do provide an edit diff. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 08:42, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
Weber, Doniger are unreliable sources like I have already described and there are contrary claims for the exceptional claim. Many of them I have already highlighted on this edit. Many reliable sources say that Kabaa was a Hindu temple, but we can't say that on any article. Capitals00 (talk) 09:13, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Capitals00: On Doniger's The Hindus: An Alternative History... it is strange and silly that Raymond3023 edit wars to add it back and you were the first to add that specific Doniger source, now you complain about it as "unreliable"! These double standards are getting tiresome, please be careful in future. Practice what you preach. FWIW, we already agreed to remove/replace that specific source. On Weber... we can remove the non-HISTRS cite. I am fine with relying on recent RS. Other than these two, if you consider any other scholars and publications in this version as unreliable, please identify and explain why you consider it unreliable. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:02, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Repetition?

Capitals00: You allege above the following para is an undue repetition:

  • Quote: The contemporary era "clear and tidy" systematization of Kalki and the remaining nine avatars of Vishnu, states Cornelia Dimmitt, is a recent phenomenon.[21][undue weight? – discuss] It is not so in any of the Maha-Puranas. They mention Kalki but barely once or twice. This scant coverage of Kalki is in contrast to the legends of Matsya, Kurma, Varaha, Vamana, Narasimha and Krishna, all of which are repeatedly and extensively described. Most have "no significant stories of Kalki at all", states Dimmitt, which likely was because just like the concept of the Buddha as a Vishnu avatar, the concept of Kalki was "somewhat in flux" when the major Puranas were being compiled.[21][undue weight? – discuss]

Please identify / quote which para or sentence(s) this is repeating? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:27, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

It seems repetition of the first two paragraphs because it is reading as it is putting the concept during early centuries like above two. Kalki is described in Matsya, Varaha, Vishnu, Bhagavata and they are one of the mahapurana, so it is not clear what is being meant from "They mention Kalki but barely once or twice", other sentences like "is a recent phenomenon" is also dubious because one would question "how recent?", then "no significant stories of Kalki at all", but then which one has significant stories and how significant they are? There are such confusions with the paragraph. Capitals00 (talk) 18:11, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
@Capitals00: So your objection is with the "how recent" etc. How about the following alternate:
  • The contemporary era "clear and tidy" systematization of Kalki and the remaining nine avatars of Vishnu, states Cornelia Dimmitt, is not found in any of the Maha-Puranas.[21] The coverage of Kalki in these Hindu texts is scant, in contrast to the legends of Matsya, Kurma, Varaha, Vamana, Narasimha and Krishna, all of which are repeatedly and extensively described. According to Dimmitt, this was likely because just like the concept of the Buddha as a Vishnu avatar, the concept of Kalki was "somewhat in flux" when the major Puranas were being compiled.[21]
If this has issues, I am open to quoting Dimmitt exact, or to alternate suggestions. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:54, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
Maybe you can remove the repetitive parts and merge the 3rd paragraph (Dimmitt) with either 2nd(Hiltebeitel) or 4th paragraph (Mitchiner) because right now they are really similar to 2nd and 4th paragraph, and those paragraphs are more detailed. Raymond3023 (talk) 02:42, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Raymond3023: They are not really repetitive. 2nd para is summarizing Kalki's development in Mahabharata. 3rd para is comparing eschatology and Kalki in Mahabharata and the Puranas (there are 18 major-Puranas, and many more minor-Puranas in that genre). 4th para is comparing and summarizing eschatology and Kalki in Yuga purana versus the other Puranas. If you don't know the difference between these texts, or their significance, I can't help you, nor is this talk page meant to do so. Further, just like you two days ago, were wondering "is this one author's opinion" (see above), wikipedia readers may wonder the same thing. We need the summary from multiple scholarly sources to properly explain Kalki concept/character development in their Indian texts. These paras will stay, for all these reasons (we can take it through DRN/ANI/ARB; since you are relatively new, please do note that wikipedia is not a democracy, you can't majority vote to suspend our core content policies such as verifiability, NPOV, etc). Also note, fwiw, everything is well supported with RS, including the "no significant stories of Kalki at all" part which bothered Capitals00 (it is a direct quote extract from Dimmitt). Yet, in the spirit of collaboration and respect for Capitals00, I am willing to reword phrases that help reach consensus, while respecting our WP:V and WP:NPOV guidelines. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 07:53, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

I am open to proposal for this paragraph. And BTW, I am editing since 2015 and been through a number of SPIs, so there's nothing "new" about me. Three editors have already disagreed with your edits here so DRN is not going to do anything, and ANI/ARB are not for solving content disputes. So again, you can propose the wording of Dimmitt paragraph here. Raymond3023 (talk) 08:09, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
You misunderstand DRN/ANI/ARB. WP:TE is actionable and WP:COMPETENCE is required. You may have registered your account in 2015, but considering the number of your edits and quality of your contributions, please remember and respect the process. No! three editors have not "disagreed" so far! The discussion here is between Capitals00, you and I so far. Don't confuse an admin's locking the article, as an agreement with either you or I. That is the due and necessary process. On Dimmitt's revised language, I already proposed the language above. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 08:18, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
I was talking about only the discussion that occurred last days, AnmolBhatt being the third who had objected. I just saw your wording and they seem fine though "contemporary era" needs to be removed and "systematization" can be replaced with "concept". I hadn't seen earlier. Raymond3023 (talk) 08:28, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
Why remove "contemporary era", and what is wrong with "systematization", given what the source states? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 08:42, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
It is unclear what is actually meant from "contemporary era" here. Raymond3023 (talk) 08:48, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
It should start with probably "According to Cornelia Dimmitt, the "clear and tidy"..." since the concept is still ancient, there is nothing modern. Capitals00 (talk) 09:13, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

For consensus and to move on, I would be okay with the following change...

  • Proposed consensus version: According to Cornelia Dimmitt, the "clear and tidy" systematization of Kalki and the remaining nine avatars of Vishnu is not found in any of the Maha-Puranas.[21] The coverage of Kalki in these Hindu texts is scant, in contrast to the legends of Matsya, Kurma, Varaha, Vamana, Narasimha and Krishna, all of which are repeatedly and extensively described. According to Dimmitt, this was likely because just like the concept of the Buddha as a Vishnu avatar, the concept of Kalki was "somewhat in flux" when the major Puranas were being compiled.[21]

[21] is the Dimmitt source. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:02, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Speekingtree.in, kalki.me etc websites

@Vpramu: Welcome to wikipedia. Why are the above and similar websites WP:RS? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:46, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Kalki

Based on the information on kalki on wikipedia, either "kalki" can never exist or the odds of "kalki" to be a real human being is one in a billion.

Original research concerning the supposed identity of Kalki

kalki appears to mean, one from the filth or the one from kal yuga, as in lotus or "mud-born", it is safe to assume "kalki" is a code word for "lotus", we all know that lotus is a prominent symbol of vishnu.

Since no sane parents would name their child "kalki" unless there was something seriously wrong with their thinking process, the child would likely be named lotus in one way or the other, there are many male names that in Sanskrit equates to lotus flower, the closest name to fit the description of decay of the kal yuga (filth, clay, mud etc) and the lotus is पङ्क paṅka-जा jā :Antya 4.63.

Just for argument if we assume that kalki will be named paṅka-jā or verient of it then the next stage is to identify his location.

Srimad Bhagavatha Maha Purana – 12:2:18 states he comes from the village or community of brahmins, it does not state that he will be a brahmin, brahmins do not wage wars and for Vishnu to take birth as a brahmin to wage wars goes against the principle of Hindu philosophy, therefor, it is yet again safe to assume "kalki" a warrior is predicted to come from a village or community of brahmins but he will not be a brahmin himself.

1:2:15 Kalki Purana identifies the precise day of the month and moon cycle when "kalki" will take birth, this is very helpful as it narrows down who "kalki" will be to a boy who must be born on presice single day per any given year.

Prophecy is that once the child grows up he goes abroad to find his soul mate padma, padma is another description of a lotus in sanskrit, padma's location and description increase the odds of identifying "kalki" even further.

Apparently kalki's complexion is dark like a cloud while padma's complexion is light, they are exact opposite of each other, padma lives on an island far side of the oceans. An island symbolized by lion.

Zoroastrian prophecy in relation to their savior figure, their migration to Gujarat is interesting because krishna's dwarka was based in Gujarat, Gujarat seems to be relevent to the "kalki" prophecy, any assistance on this will be appreciated.

Based on information on kalki from Wikipedia for anyone to claim to be "kalki" at least all of the below requirements must be satisfied:

A non-brahmin dark coloured child born amongst brahmins.

Day of the birth on just one single day of any given year.

Possible name given by parents to be paṅka-jā or something similar that describes a lotus.

"Lotus" who has been or will go abroad far away from India.

"Lotus" who marries a foreigner, a white women. Sounds like a foreign passport situation.

The island is a wealthy island symbolised by lion, very coincidental but United Kingdom is the closest if not perfect fit to this part of the prophecy.

His agenda is prophesied to reestablish righteousness upon earth by commencing dharma yudha, so if a person found who passes all the tests described above he must hold his reputation of warrior rather than a businessman or a religious guru and then if that was not enough there are other signatures provided in scriptures such as shrivatsa mark on the right chest of "kalki" that also must be present on the same person.

Given such a precise basic requirements, it is safe to say no man will ever be identified to be "kalki".

I am sure there will be 1000 faker who will or have claim to be "kalki" but none will ever pass the test to be the real "kalki".Contributor14324 (talk) 14:44, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

New sections go at the bottom. Wikipedia does not use original research. Wikipedia does not use itself as a source. Wikipedia is not a general discussion forum. Ian.thomson (talk) 15:57, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Unsourced content, quote farming

@My Lord: Please see the extended discussion on various scholarly sources above, then explain this edit where you removed a lot of peer-reviewed scholarly sources and reverted a better article to an old unsourced version? What are your concerns with the scholarly sources and why do you believe the older unsourced version is better / meets our content guidelines. @Kautilya3 and Favonian: your third opinion or watch would be helpful. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:09, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Your version had been well disputed by those who participated here, and for so many months no one thought of restoring the disputed content because it only included editorializing through sources that are either way not relevant since everyone has opinion about the subject but cherrypicking makes it difficult for readers, given there were many objections. We have to keep it relevant. That way, the unsourced content (which can be easily sourced) seemed more relevant that's why it was merged with some parts of the new version with the older one. Capitals00 (talk) 03:52, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
What is editorialized? which sources are cherrypicked? Please provide edit diffs and sources. FWIW, "User:My Lord" is the new name of the editor previously named User:Anmolbhat, and Anmolbhat did participate in the discussion above and in the consensus building process. I will now remove the unsourced and poorly sourced quote farm content. If you or someone can "easily source" it, please do so with WP:RS. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 04:10, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Proposed sections and revisions, with WP:RS

I intend to add back the following content and peer reviewed scholarly sources to the article. Please let me know if a particular sentence or source is contested, or can be improved upon. (for harv link, please see the main article) Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 04:47, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Etymology

The name Kalki is derived based Kali, which means "present age" (kali yuga).[1] The literal meaning of Kalki is "dirty, sinful", which Brockington states does not make sense in the avatara context.[2] This has led scholars such as Otto Schrader to suggest that the original term may have been karki (white, from the horse) which morphed into Kalki. This proposal is supported by two versions of Mahabharata manuscripts (e.g. the G3.6 manuscript) that have been found, where the Sanskrit verses name the avatar to be "karki", rather than "kalki".[2]

Description

Part of a series on
Vaishnavism
Closeup of Vishnu, seated in the lotus position on a lotus. From depiction of the poet Jayadeva bowing to Vishnu, Gouache on paper Pahari, The very picture of devotion, bare-bodied, head bowed, legs crossed and hands folded, Jayadeva stands at left, with the implements of worship placed before the lotus-seat of Vishnu who sits there, blessing the poet.
Supreme deity
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Important deities
Dashavatara
Other forms
Consorts
Related
Holy scriptures
Puranas
Sampradayas
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Teachers—acharyas
Related traditions

Kalki is an avatara of Vishnu. Avatara means "descent" and refers to a descent of the divine into the material realm of human existence. The Garuda Purana lists ten avatars, with Kalki being the tenth.[3] He is described as the avatar who appears at the end of the Kali Yuga. He ends the darkest, degenerating and chaotic stage of the Kali Yuga (period) to remove adharma and ushers in the Satya Yuga, while riding a white horse with a fiery sword.[4][5] He restarts a new cycle of time.[6] He is described as a Brahmin warrior in the Puranas.[4][5]

Wheel of Time Tantra

In the Buddhist text Kalachakra Tantra, the righteous kings are called Kalki (Kalkin, lit. chieftain) living in Sambhala. There are many Kalki in this text, each fighting barbarism, persecution and chaos. The last Kalki is called "Cakrin" and is predicted to end the chaos and degeneration by assembling a large army to eradicate the "forces of Islam".[7][8] A great war and Armageddon will destroy the barbaric Muslim forces, states the text.[7][8][9] According to Donald Lopez – a professor of Buddhist Studies, Kalki is predicted to start the new cycle of perfect era where "Buddhism will flourish, people will live long, happy lives and righteousness will reign supreme".[7] The text is significant in establishing the chronology of the Kalki idea to be from post-7th century, probably the 9th or 10th century.[10] Lopez states that the Buddhist text likely borrowed it from Hindu mythology.[7][8] Other scholars, such as Yijiu Jin, state that the text originated in Central Asia in the 10th-century, and Tibetan literature picked up a version of it in India around 1027 CE.[10]

Development

While there is no mention of Kalki in the Vedic literature, there are traces of the Vedic roots of Kalki.[11] Rabiprasad Mishra writes that Rudra's association with destruction of the creation and the elimination of its crisis is similar to the concept of Kalki.[12] [13] The Kalki appears for the first time in the great war epic Mahabharata.[14] The mention of Kalki in the Mahabharata occurs only once, over the verses 3.188.85–3.189.6.[2] The Kalki avatar is found in the Maha-Puranas such as Vishnu Purana,[15] Matsya Purana, and Bhagavata Purana.[16][17] However, the details relating the Kalki mythologies are divergent between the Epic and the Puranas, as well as within the Puranas.[18][14]

In the Mahabharata, according to Hiltebeitel, Kalki is an extension of the Parasurama avatar legend where a Brahmin warrior destroys Kshatriyas who were abusing their power to spread chaos, evil and persecution of the powerless. The Epic character of Kalki restores dharma, restores justice in the world, but does not end the cycle of existence.[14][19] The Kalkin section in the Mahabharata occurs in the Markandeya section. There, states Luis Reimann, can "hardly be any doubt that the Markandeya section is a late addition to the Epic. Making Yudhisthira ask a question about conditions at the end of Kali and the beginning of Krta — something far removed from his own situation — is merely a device for justifying the inclusion of this subject matter in the Epic."[20]

According to Cornelia Dimmitt, the "clear and tidy" systematization of Kalki and the remaining nine avatars of Vishnu is not found in any of the Maha-Puranas.[21] The coverage of Kalki in these Hindu texts is scant, in contrast to the legends of Matsya, Kurma, Varaha, Vamana, Narasimha and Krishna, all of which are repeatedly and extensively described. According to Dimmitt, this was likely because just like the concept of the Buddha as a Vishnu avatar, the concept of Kalki was "somewhat in flux" when the major Puranas were being compiled.[21]

This myth may have developed in the Hindu texts both as a reaction to the invasions of the Indian subcontinent by various armies over the centuries from its northwest, and the mythologies these invaders brought with them.[2][22]

According to John Mitchiner, the Kalki concept was likely borrowed "in some measure from similar Jewish, Christian, Zoroastrian and other religions".[23] Mitchiner states that some Puranas such as the Yuga Purana do not mention Kalki and offer a different cosmology than the other Puranas. The Yuga Purana mythologizes in greater details the post-Maurya era Indo-Greek and Saka era, while the Manvantara theme containing the Kalki idea is mythologized greater in other Puranas.[24][14] Luis Gonzales-Reimann concurs with Mitchiner, stating that the Yuga Purana does not mention Kalki.[25] In other texts such as the sections 2.36 and 2.37 of the Vayu Purana, states Reimann, it is not Kalkin who ends the Kali Yuga, but a different character named Pramiti.[26] Most historians, states Arvind Sharma, link the development of Kalki mythology in Hinduism to the suffering caused by foreign invasions.[27]

The Kalki avatar appears in the historic Sikh texts, most notably in Dasam Granth as Nihakalanki, a text that is traditionally attributed to Guru Gobind Singh.[28][29] The Chaubis Avatar (24 avatars) section mentions sage Matsyanra describing the appearance of Vishnu avatars to fight evil, greed, violence and ignorance. It includes Kalki as the twenty-fourth incarnation to lead the war between the forces of righteousness and unrighteousness, states Dhavan.[30]

Iconography

The iconography of Kalki portrays him in either two or four armed forms.[31]

Predictions about birth and arrival

Since Kaliyuga is supposed to last 432,000 years, Kalki will appear at the end of Kaliyuga to restore the order of the world.[32][33][34]

The Indian texts state that Kalki will be born to Awejsirdenee and Bishenjun,[35] or alternatively in the family of Sumati and Vishnuyasha.[34][36] He appears at the end of Kali Yuga to restore the order of the world.[35][37] Vishnuyasha is stated to be a prominent Brahmin headman of the village called Shambhala. He will become the king, a "Turner of the Wheel", and one who triumphs. He will eliminate all barbarians and robbers, end adharma, restart dharma, and save the good people.[38] After that, humanity will be transformed and will prevail on earth, and the golden age will begin.[38]

In the Kanchipuram temple, two relief Puranic panels depict Kalki, one relating to lunar (daughter-based) dynasty and another to solar (son-based) dynasty.[34] In these panels, states D Dennis Hudson, the story depicted is in terms of Kalki fighting and defeating asura Kali. He rides a white horse called Devadatta, ends evil, purifies everyone's minds and consciousness, and heralds the start of Krita Yuga.[34]

19th-century Dashavatara painting (from left): Matsya, Kurma, Varaha, Narasimha, Vamana, Parashurama, Rama, Krishna, Buddha and Kalki.

Kalki Purana

A minor text named Kalki Purana is a recent text, likely composed in Bengal. Its dating floruit is the 18th-century.[39] Wendy Doniger dates the Kalki mythology containing Kalki Purana to between 1500 and 1700 CE.[40]

In the Kalki Purana, Kalki marries princess Padmavati, the daughter of Brhadratha of Simhala.[39] He fights an evil army and many wars, ends evil but does not end existence. Kalki returns to Sambhala, inaugurates a new yuga for the good and then goes to heaven.[39]

People claimed to be Kalki

List of people who have claimed to be the Kalki avatar:

  • Bahai faith, that emerged from Islam and is a distinct religion, has identified Bahá'u'lláh as Kalki as well as the prophesized redeeming God at the end of the world, as claimed in Babism, Islam (Mahdi), Christianity (Messiah) and Buddhism (Maitreya).[42][43]

References

  1. ^ Klaus K. Klostermaier (2006). Mythologies and Philosophies of Salvation in the Theistic Traditions of India. Wilfrid Laurier Univ. Press. p. 75. ISBN 978-0-88920-743-1.
  2. ^ a b c d J. L. Brockington (1998). The Sanskrit Epics. BRILL Academic. pp. 287-288 with footnotes 126-127. ISBN 90-04-10260-4.
  3. ^ Gopal, Madan (1990). K.S. Gautam (ed.). India through the ages. Publication Division, Ministry of Information and Broadcasting, Government of India. p. 73.
  4. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference Dalal2010p188 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  5. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference Doniger1999p629 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  6. ^ Ludo Rocher (22 March 2004). Ralph M. Rosen (ed.). Time and Temporality in the Ancient World. UPenn Museum of Archaeology. pp. 91–93. ISBN 978-1-931707-67-1.
  7. ^ a b c d Donald S. Lopez Jr. (2015). Buddhism in Practice. Princeton University Press. pp. 202–204. ISBN 978-1-4008-8007-2.
  8. ^ a b c Perry Schmidt-Leukel (2017). Religious Pluralism and Interreligious Theology: The Gifford Lectures. Orbis. pp. 220–222. ISBN 978-1-60833-695-1.
  9. ^ [a] Björn Dahla (2006). Exercising Power: The Role of Religions in Concord and Conflict. Donner Institute for Research in Religious and Cultural History. pp. 90–91. ISBN 978-952-12-1811-8., Quote: "(...) the Shambala-bodhisattva-king [Cakravartin Kalkin] and his army will defeat and destroy the enemy army, the barbarian Muslim army and their religion, in a kind of Buddhist Armadgeddon. Thereafter Buddhism will prevail.";
    [b] David Burton (2017). Buddhism: A Contemporary Philosophical Investigation. Taylor & Francis. p. 193. ISBN 978-1-351-83859-7.
    [c] Johan Elverskog (2011). Anna Akasoy; et al. (eds.). Islam and Tibet: Interactions Along the Musk Routes. Ashgate Publishing. pp. 293–310. ISBN 978-0-7546-6956-2. {{cite book}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |editor= (help)
  10. ^ a b Yijiu JIN (2017). Islam. BRILL Academic. pp. 49–52. ISBN 978-90-474-2800-8.
  11. ^ Tattvadīpaḥ: Journal of Academy of Sanskrit Research, Volume 5. The Academy. 2001. p. 81. Kalki, as an incarnation of Visnu, is not found in the Vedic literature. But some of the features of that concept, viz., the fearful elements, the epithet Kalmallkinam(brilliant, remover of darkness) of Rudra, prompt us to admit him as the forerunner of Kalki.
  12. ^ Mishra, Rabiprasad (2000). Theory of Incarnation: Its Origin and Development in the Light of Vedic and Purāṇic References. Pratibha Prakashan. p. 146.
  13. ^ Rabiprasad Mishra (2000). Theory of Incarnation: Its Origin and Development in the Light of Vedic and Purāṇic References. Pratibha. p. 146. ISBN 978-81-7702-021-2., Quote: "Kalki as an incarnation of Visnu is not mentioned in the Vedic literature."
  14. ^ a b c d Alf Hiltebeitel (2011). Reading the Fifth Veda: Studies on the Mahābhārata - Essays by Alf Hiltebeitel. BRILL Academic. pp. 89–110, 530–531. ISBN 90-04-18566-6.
  15. ^ Wilson, Horace (2001). Vishnu Purana. Ganesha Publishing. p. 72. ISBN 1-86210-016-0.
  16. ^ Roy, Janmajit. Theory of Avatāra and Divinity of Chaitanya. Atlantic Publishers. p. 39.
  17. ^ Daniélou, Alain. The Myths and Gods of India: The Classic Work on Hindu Polytheism from the Princeton Bollingen Series. Inner Traditions / Bear & Co. p. 181.
  18. ^ John E. Mitchiner (2000). Traditions Of The Seven Rsis. Motilal Banarsidass. pp. 68–69 with footnotes. ISBN 978-81-208-1324-3.
  19. ^ Alf Hiltebeitel (2011). Dharma: Its Early History in Law, Religion, and Narrative. Oxford University Press. pp. 288–292. ISBN 978-0-19-539423-8.
  20. ^ Luis González Reimann (2002). The Mahābhārata and the Yugas: India's Great Epic Poem and the Hindu System of World Ages. Peter Lang. pp. 89–99, quote is on page 97. ISBN 978-0-8204-5530-3.
  21. ^ a b Dimmitt & van Buitenen 2012, pp. 63–64
  22. ^ Wendy Doniger (2004). Hindu Myths: A Sourcebook Translated from the Sanskrit. Penguin Books. pp. 235–237. ISBN 978-0-14-044990-7.
  23. ^ John E. Mitchiner (2000). Traditions Of The Seven Rsis. Motilal Banarsidass. pp. 75–76. ISBN 978-81-208-1324-3.
  24. ^ John E. Mitchiner (2000). Traditions Of The Seven Rsis. Motilal Banarsidass. pp. 69–76. ISBN 978-81-208-1324-3.
  25. ^ Luis González-Reimann (2002). The Mahābhārata and the Yugas: India's Great Epic Poem and the Hindu System of World Ages. Peter Lang. pp. 95–99. ISBN 978-0-8204-5530-3.
  26. ^ Luis González Reimann (2002). The Mahābhārata and the Yugas: India's Great Epic Poem and the Hindu System of World Ages. Peter Lang. pp. 112–113 note 39. ISBN 978-0-8204-5530-3.; Note: Reimann mentions some attempts to "identify both Pramiti and Kalkin with historical rulers".
  27. ^ Arvind Sharma (2012). Religious Studies and Comparative Methodology: The Case for Reciprocal Illumination. State University of New York Press. pp. 244–245. ISBN 978-0-7914-8325-1.
  28. ^ Robin Rinehart (2011). Debating the Dasam Granth. Oxford University Press. pp. 29–30. ISBN 978-0-19-975506-6.
  29. ^ W. H. McLeod (2003). Sikhs of the Khalsa: A History of the Khalsa Rahit. Oxford University Press. pp. 149–150. ISBN 978-0-19-565916-0.
  30. ^ Purnima Dhavan (2011). When Sparrows Became Hawks: The Making of the Sikh Warrior Tradition, 1699-1799. Oxford University Press, USA. pp. 1 55-157, 186 note 32. ISBN 978-0-19-975655-1.
  31. ^ Klaus K. Klostermaier (2006). Mythologies and Philosophies of Salvation in the Theistic Traditions of India. Wilfrid Laurier Univ. Press. p. 89. ISBN 978-0-88920-743-1.
  32. ^ Charles Russell Coulter; Patricia Turner (2013). Encyclopedia of Ancient Deities. Routledge.
  33. ^ James R. Lewis; Inga B. Tollefsen. The Oxford Handbook of New Religious Movements, Volume 2. Oxford University Press. p. 488.
  34. ^ a b c d D Dennis Hudson (2008). The Body of God: An Emperor's Palace for Krishna in Eighth-Century Kanchipuram. Oxford University Press. p. 333. Cite error: The named reference "emperor" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
  35. ^ a b Charles Russell Coulter; Patricia Turner (2013). Encyclopedia of Ancient Deities. Routledge.
  36. ^ Rocher 1986, p. 183.
  37. ^ James R. Lewis; Inga B. Tollefsen. The Oxford Handbook of New Religious Movements, Volume 2. Oxford University Press. p. 488.
  38. ^ a b J.A.B. van Buitenen (1987). The Mahabharata, Volume 2: Book 2. University of Chicago Press. p. 597-598.
  39. ^ a b c Rocher 1986, p. 183 with footnotes.
  40. ^ Wendy Doniger (1988). Textual Sources for the Study of Hinduism. Manchester University Press. p. 5. ISBN 978-0-7190-1867-1.
  41. ^ Juergensmeyer, Mark (2006). Oxford Handbook of Global Religions. Oxford: Oxford University Press. p. 520. ISBN 978-0-19-513798-9, ISBN (Ten digit): 0195137981.
  42. ^ Daniel E Bassuk (1987). Incarnation in Hinduism and Christianity: The Myth of the God-Man. Palgrave Macmillan. pp. 146–147. ISBN 978-1-349-08642-9.
  43. ^ John M. Robertson (2012). Tough Guys and True Believers: Managing Authoritarian Men in the Psychotherapy Room. Routledge. pp. 62–63. ISBN 978-1-136-81774-8.
  44. ^ The Oxford Handbook of New Religious Movements, Volume 2, p.488, James R. Lewis, Inga B. Tollefsen, Oxford University Press
  45. ^ "Who is Samael Aun Weor?". Samael.org. Retrieved 25 December 2017.
  46. ^ Sikand, Yoginder (2008). Pseudo-messianic movements in contemporary Muslim South Asia. Global Media Publications. p. 100.

I have boldfaced what I am adding and struck what needs not to be included. Given the lengthy discussion above, I don't really feel like repeating that I have struck two paragraphs of "development" because first paragraph from Dimmitt does seem WP:UNDUE and doesn't verify the information. John Mitchiner's paragraph is just same, though it lends weight to WP:EXCEPTIONAL information which can be said vice-versa per reliable sources as stated in above discussions. Capitals00 (talk) 07:44, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

I had restored an earlier revision and added some new content as I had found numerous sources for the quotes listed in births. I hadn't sourced the quotes then, but they can be sourced to reliable sources. As for this dispute, I agree that those two paragraphs of development should go, agree with rest of your other modifications. My Lord (talk) 10:36, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
@Capitals00 and My Lord: Ok, I will restore all the scholarly sources and the sourced content thereof, that you have "not struck". Let us now discuss the two paras you propose to be "struck".
Capitals00: Our policy WP:UNDUE states:
Quote: Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources.[3] Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means that articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects. (...)
Why then is it WP:Undue when multiple scholarly sources extensively discuss it and they are widely held views in Kalki-related scholarly publications? You also allege "doesn't verify the information". I do not understand you. It does verify. Please explain your concern.
My Lord: what are your reasons behind the "those two paragraphs of development should go"? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:19, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
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