Talk:Kalevala

Does someone know...

How is pronounced the word Kalevala?--190.22.158.76 (talk) 22:50, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

It's pronounced with an accent in the first syllabe, "Kálevala", as are all the names of the main characters (Lémminkainen, Ílmarinen, Kúllervo...).Nordisk varg (talk) 21:59, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

References or links for certain things

Hi there, I'm currently writing a paper alongside creating a piece of art inspired by the Kalevala. There are a few statements made in the article which I'm struggling to find referenced anywhere else. For instance:

"[Elias and the poem collectors] carefully noted the name of the poem singer, its age, the place of performance, and the date."

Where can I verify this statement? Thank you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.154.230.70 (talk) 13:59, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Would be good to change all of the references to e.g. published books, papers or similar trusted sources. Currently the references are pointing to (self-published) sites like Geocities. Such resources aren't typically quoted in encylopedic text. Buddhaball (talk) 17:47, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

B-Class

This article doesn't nearly meet the criteria for a B-class on an objective level. It doesn't even meet the first listed requirement: "The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations where necessary. It has reliable sources, and any important or controversial material which is likely to be challenged is cited.". I am changing the rating of the article to C-class for all 3 projects, which even still is a stretch. Hopefully either I or another editor can clean the article up suitably to get it back into shape for a higher rating eventually. Jess_talk|_edits 07:53, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Recent Reverts

User:Lakkasuo recent reverted two of my edits, here. These aren't major issues, but I do think they are a definite improvement to the article.

1. Regarding the image, first of all, I'd really love to use an image other than the front cover of the book. The front cover of the book is uninteresting and entirely uninformative. That said, as long as we are using the title page, the original version is appropriate. This wikipedia article is about the work itself and the effect it's had, not about the English translation. I don't imagine the English translation has actually had much impact at all, considering the majority of the influences listed in the article involve Finland.
2. Regarding Aarno Karimo, Lakkasuo claims that he's an important and well-known figure, and therefore notable. This may well be the case, but we don't currently have an article on him. If he deserves mention as you say, then there are two possibilities: 1) He is notable on his own, and would meet the inclusion criteria for a wikipedia page. If so, there should be a plethora of sources out there about him. Can you provide one or two so we could cite that sentence until an article on him is created? 2) His notability is exclusive to the Kalevala, and he has directly and substantially influenced it or its impact in some visible way. If so, there should be sources which link him to the topic and establish notability. Can you provide one or two of those? As of now, all I see is an unsourced sentence making claims about 3 people who aren't notable enough, even, to have articles. We need to change that if this sentence is to stay.

Thanks! Jess_talk|_edits 09:05, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

1. Image: I disagree with you on this one. I will be keeping it as it is.
2. I agree with you mainly on this. The article is badly in need of work, citations and much other things. I am working on it. Lots of pages are in Finnish, some in Swedish, some in German and quite a few in English, there's a bit of work involved. I have a job you know! ;) Sometimes I have to actually pretend to be working.

All in all I agree with your edits (barring 3 of them of course). I can't allow the translation list to vanish. As far as I can see it is an almost complete list that certainly doesn't belong in the main article, but can be included elsewhere.

It seems this article has stagnated a little, but it has never been anywhere near complete or A-class, maybe in a few years it will be. We shall see. Please, don't go into it willy nilly. It's had time to grow from the original 8 lines it began as and will take time to become a good article. Is there any rush?

--Lakkasuo (talk) 14:39, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

@Lakkasuo

1. Can you give any reason for this than "You disagree"? That you disagree is kind of irrelevant here.
2. Regarding the translation list, I'm not sure this has a place anywhere really. If you can find a place, by all means go for it. As a note, however, putting it in the article space isn't really procedure, and it'll likely be AfD'd as soon as someone runs across it. You might try moving it to your user space instead. Jess_talk|_edits 16:41, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

No I can't. I disagree with the idea that the article's main image should be the title page from the original translation. Having the title from the translation that corresponds to the article's language is by no means unusual. I also disagree that a title page from a version of the book in question is uninteresting and entirely uninformative. How so? You are giving opinion as am I, why is yours any more valid?

We have lists of all sorts of shyte on enwiki. Why is this list of "shyte" any different? I'll stick in userspace also and when I have the time try to make it a better sourced list. I seem to have a lot on here.

Cheer up, it's only wikipedia. It's not like you will be judged on the number of edits you make to it when your time is up. As I said before, it takes time, it's an article with a low edit count and with very little traffic, it's not going to be in order in just a few days.

T'ra.--Lakkasuo (talk) 18:26, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

1. Guideline on image choice suggests that images should be chosen which are most relevant to the topic, and which are (above all) informative to the reader. This article is about a Finnish piece of literature, it is not about the translations of that literature. The most relevant cover title is therefore the original work. A title page also does little to inform the reader about the subject (particularly when it's of a random English translation unassociated with the original author). On both counts, guideline dictates that the original cover page (or another more informative image) is preferable.
2. I was actually referring to Kalevala/Translations, not the actual article list you created after it. You should AfD the first, and you'll need to supply a few references for the second to keep it from being AfD'd as well.

Lastly, your only edits since creating an account just days ago have been to this article, but you've suggested a familiarity with the editing process. Have you used any other accounts in the past? Jess_talk|_edits 19:22, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Image choice is not as concrete as other areas of WP regulation. It is open to interpretation a lot more than many other areas. What you would call a random English translation, I would call the first full translation of the work in question. What you would call uninformative I would call quite very informative and very suitable for an article about a book that has been translated many times. The title page says it all. "kalevala. The epic poem of finland, into english, by, john martin crawford. in two volumes, volume the first, new york, published by john b alden, 1988." It shows we are looking at an epic poem in a foreign language, that has been translated into English and not an article about an untranslated work (of which there are some). That it is and old work and as well as that old enough so that it should be public domain. Of course this information is available in the text, so we may as well not have an image because they can all be ultimately replaced by some well written lines of prose.

Yah, that was my mistake. There are plenty of them. I will do something with that, but as it is now the main article is getting most of my free time. As I say, I will keep at it, you will keep at it too no doubt and eventually we shall reach consensus.

Is there a single user that has been a member of a wikimedia project for a few years that hasn't had different accounts and either retired them or had some reason to become paranoid about them and leave them behind? I'd been absent from enwiki for a couple of years, came here to check something, noticed edits I didn't like and decided to do something about them. It's all fun innit ;)

--Lakkasuo (talk) 20:12, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

1. Sure. All guideline is open to interpretation, but you haven't provided any reason to completely ditch guideline besides that it's your opinion. That isn't a good reason for reverting good faith edits based on guideline. Again, this article is about a piece of Finnish literature by Elias Lönnrot. Can you give me any solid reason why we should be showing a picture of someone else's work? Put another way, the most recent English translation was by Kieth Bosley. Why shouldn't we replace the image with his front cover?
2. Welcome back to WP then. Since you've been gone for a bit, I'd suggest reading WP:OWN, WP:Consensus and WP:JDLI. The environment here may have changed a bit since you were an editor, and those are issues which have come up in this discussion, which you might benefit from looking into. I'd also suggest reading WP:PA, not because there's been a violation here, but because the overarching message of "comment on content, not contributers" is an important one. Condescending remarks about building up my edit count or rushing into things aren't constructive to the conversation. All the best, Jess_talk|_edits 23:32, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

1. Well, Firstly Bosley's work isn't in the public domain (although Sammon puolustus-the title of the painting on the cover-is ... hmmm). It would probably qualify fair use, but then again would it? We have other such pages like the one by Crawford that are just as good. The Crawford page is a better scan than the original's page. It's in a language users of this project can understand and it is significant in being the first full translation into the language of the project it is featured in, it also looks like a first edition of the work. Finally, the image you wish to use is of the Old Kalevala, which while sharing some similarities to the modern (for want of a better word) Kalevala, it is a distinctive work of it's own. The differences are highlighted in Magoun's version, on page 362.
2. Well, thanks :) I will get me some sleep. I'm up a bit late and I would like to get a good day's pretending-to-work in on the morrow. I'll catch up a bit on policy then. I have to admit, I am used to a more feisty environment than I seem to be getting, with a bit more banter and "unproductive" comments. Perhaps I believe in conflict as a way to get things done. Sorry if you felt I was being condescending. Well, tone is very hard to sense online. Night night.

--Lakkasuo (talk) 00:08, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't able to respond immediately because I'm currently traveling, and I've only had enough time to make minor edits. In any case, I would have liked to reply to this last comment of yours, but I'm afraid I won't have the time to follow up, so I'll have to decline. I still very much disagree with headlining an article about Lonnrot's compilation with a picture of someone else's book, and that will have to be changed at some point in order to promote this article to a respectable status. However, as I mentioned earlier, it will likely be changed to something more informative (and frankly, attractive) later anyway. I would suggest looking at other literature articles for precedent on this matter, such as Romeo and Juliet, Hamlet (or indeed any of Shakespeare's works), The raven, Gilgamesh are just a few. Even those few featured articles which do use the cover as an image cite the first edition (e.g. Candide). Either are preferable to the current state. In any case, I may come back to the article to make minor adjustments, if time allows. All the best, Jess_talk|_edits 07:38, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Hey, no worries. I hope you're having a grand time wherever you are. I'm due to pop off to the UK for a brief trip shortly myself. So, we'll see when we're both available again and hopefully we'll continue getting this article into shape. If you can't help, is there anybody you would recommend who would be willing?

Also, the image. I am not against using another image. I would just like it to be a clear, good quality one that says, straight away "This is an image depicting Kalevala". The image you wanted to use is not really appropriate though and the only scan of Kalevala 1849 is tiny and to be honest rubbish.

Well then, take it easy and see you about.

--Lakkasuo (talk) 19:10, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Influence of The Kalevala > Celebration

http://www.nordicnames.de/wiki/Aino http://www.behindthename.com/name/seppo-1 http://www.helsinkitimes.fi/htimes/domestic-news/general/1430.html http://www.kirjastot.fi/fi-FI/tietopalvelu/kysymys.aspx?ID=76c4325d-ac1d-4c27-9ce0-899232881021

4 sites mentioning traditional Finnish names in connection with Kalevala. Thing is, it's not really written anywhere about the link between Kalevala and Finnish names although it is there. Not sure if sites like above are any good, this whole section may not be properly referenceable and may have to go, it's not a big loss, not really even a small loss.

I have also written to the Helsinki university almanac office maybe they have some article I can cite. I don't hold much hope and I've already spent far too much effort on a relatively unimportant part of the article. --Lakkasuo (talk) 10:36, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Got my answer.--Lakkasuo (talk) 11:48, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

British SF writer Michael Scott Rohan's The Winter of the World series used names, characters etc from the Kalevala83.104.224.249 (talk) 22:17, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of Kalevala (synopses) for deletion

The article Kalevala (synopses) has been nominated for deletion. So, I guess anyone who has an interest here will also have an interest there and should go and give their t'pence worth. --Lakkasuo (talk) 18:01, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Kalevala IPA notation

The IPA notation recently got changed. Now, although close mid and open mid are somewhat similar, to me "ˈkɑlɛvɑlɑ" fits more than "ˈkɑlevɑlɑ". I will revert to the old version, but if anyone can shed some light on the matter it would be appreciated as I'm no expert on the inner workings of IPA and all that stuff. Thanks. --Lakkasuo (talk) 04:03, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

"The Kalevala"?

In line with the name of the article itself, the work should be referred to as "the Kalevala", not the awkward "The Kalevala". Jpatokal (talk) 09:54, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

What do guidelines say about this sort of thing? If you think it needs changing then change it. I don't know whether to or not. --Lakkasuo (talk) 12:07, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Not sure the guidelines have anything to say about this... but my gut feel is that the myths collectively known as "Kalevala" are the primary topic of the article, more so than the publication of the work The Kalevala, so the article (and italics) should not be used unless specifically referring to the book. Jpatokal (talk) 02:29, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Good point well made sir.--Lakkasuo (talk) 19:47, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated and erroneous ?

In the section History I came across the line: "The newest events (e.g. the arrival of Christianity) seem to be from the Iron Age.".

Up until that point I had simply accepted the claims of the piece, however I cannot understand this claim as anything but impossible as the Iron Age ended 600 years before Christ was even born.

Finding such an error made me wonder how well checked the other claims and references were Picking one at random, ref 11, provides this page: http://dbgw.finlit.fi/skvr/teksti.php?id=skvr11108660, as evidence that "Finnish folk poetry was first written down in the 17th century". I find it hard to understand how such a webpage in and of itself provides that. (edit: the page comes from http://dbgw.finlit.fi/skvr/, but imo still needs contextualisation to serve its purpose.)

Could anyone comment?

LookingGlass (talk) 14:30, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

continuing reading and checking ... there seems to be a lack of "substantial" references. Many are to an anonymous website, others to a Finnish tourism society website, and so on.

From a (very) brief search I found this http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/kveng/ which has the complete English translation of the Kalevala written by John Martin Crawford (scholar) together with his preface, written in 1888. This surely has to be relevant as a source document.

The rot website for the Finnish texts used as references needs to be referenced more fully i.e. with information to introduce and explain the individual references. I found this full text of the Kalevala, in Finnish: http://runeberg.org/kalevala/.

I have to add to all this that Finnish history generally tends to suffer from being "massaged". Wiki should imo be trying to get beneath that to the base information rather than to echo it.

LookingGlass (talk) 15:33, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Just passing through, but according to History_of_Finland#Iron_Age, the Finnish Iron Age lasted from c.500 BC until c.1150 AD, with CHristianity being introduced/imposed at the end of that period by the Swedes. (As a comparison, the British Iron Age ran began about 800BC and ended with the Roman Conquest) Iapetus (talk) 13:24, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

The last rune singer of the kalevala

A person called Jussi Huovinen is the last living rune singer of the Kalevala and is very old, I think while he is still alive, and being the only living and last person to traditionally receive the Kalevala in an oral fashion deserves some mentioning \ recognition.

there is a webpage regarding him here

and one wiki entry on him which is hardly an entry, here

being the last alive, and the holder of a soon to be dead tradition of the oral Kalevala, I think a small mentioning of him being the last of this tradition on the Kalevala entry is indeed worthy, and any other reference to external sources etc — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.182.193.143 (talk) 06:33, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Contradicting statements in the opening and "Elias Lönnrot" paragraphs

The first paragrapgh states: "The first version of The Kalevala (called The new Kalevala) was published in 1835."

While in the paragraph about the author we read: "Prior to the publication of The Kalevala, Elias Lönnrot compiled several related works including the three-part Kantele (1829–1831) the Old Kalevala (1835) and the Kanteletar (1840)."

It would seem logical to me for the first one to be wrong and the other one being right, but can someone please confirm and fix this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.156.157.66 (talk) 05:58, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

In the preface of my French edition of the Kalevala by Jean-Louis Perret, there is : "Enfin, le 28 février 1835, paraissait "Kalevala ou les vieilles chansons caréliennes des temps antiques du peuple finnois", which means "Finally, on February 28, 1835, was issued "Kalevala or old Karelian songs of the ancient times of the Finnish people"". There is no mention of a "new" or "old" Kalevala, only the Kantele in 29-31, the Kalevala with its long subtitle in 35, then the Kanteletar, Sananlaskut, and Arvoitukset respectively in 40, 42, and 44. I am removing both the "new" and "old" adjectives as they are not part of the official title (see the original issue). Xerxes ^(contact) 16:00, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Actually the only mistake was in the lede section, as "old and new Kalevala" are common titles for the 35 and 49 editions. Still I think we should emphasize the fact that these are not the official titles. Xerxes ^(contact) 16:10, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

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Use of italics and quotation marks

I saw that "Kalevala" as the title of the work was italicized sometimes but very inconsistently. As the title of a book it should be italicized throughout. I did this. I did not italicize it in quotations, nor in other uses such as "Kalevala metre" or cross-references.

I also saw that it was sometimes called "The Kalevala" and sometimes "the Kalevala", with italics (when used) as "The Kalevala" and "the Kalevala", respectively. I did not change most of these, though I think The Kalevala is less appropriate because the article is named "Kalevala". I leave this to others.

I also saw that, in citations, often book titles were quoted, as in "Title", and details were italicized, as in "Author, introduction, p.N (year)", which should be "Title, Author, year, introduction, p.N." I changed this where I saw it, which is probably not everywhere.

I hope everyone is okay with these edits, which to me seem standard and noncontroversial. If anyone objects, I suggest not reverting, because there are so many different edits in one batch, including minor edits that improve the style and are not listed here. Instead, let's discuss them. Thanks. Zaslav (talk) 05:00, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Kalevala Hindi.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:06, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Iron Age lasting long after Christianisation of most of Europe

The article mentions "The newest events, e.g. the arrival of Christianity, seem to be from the Iron Age", which would make the majority of users be stunned about how Christianity could have arrived before Jesus. The Iron Age namely ended in most of the world before the Common Era, with few exceptions in parts of Europe, mainly in Northern Europe, which few would know w/o being told or reminded. Therefore I added what is written in the article History of Finland, that in Finland the Iron Age lasted until 1,300 CE. That makes it clear that it's not a mistake or typo. I don't understand why another editor removed it as unnecessary. I am certainly not the only Wiki user who doesn't know that Finland didn't leave the Iron Age for some 1,300 years after what is assumed to be Jesus' lifetime; more likely, I'm part of a majority who's not aware of it. People can be curious about the Kalevala even w/o otherwise having a clue about Finland, for instance thanks to the recent BBC World Service programme about it, which targets mainly non-European English speakers from India, Africa, North America etc. If the issue is that the reader can click around until finding the date - I'm firmly in favour of being user-friendly and placing dates next to events and names, as it helps not disrupting the lecture of the article by constantly clicking back & forth. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 04:36, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Your edit makes sense. Initially, to me it seemed an unnecessary and cluttering edit because it is not news to me. To a new reader of this topic, it will be a useful clarification. --Lead holder (talk) 12:42, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Why is Tolkien's disagreement on Kalevala's national epic status on Note 1 relevant to the article?

Is Tolkien a relevant authority on this? Why does his disagreement deserve its own note? Also, the Note comes before Tolkien is even introduced in the article a few sentences later. A reader would have no idea who "Professor Tolkien" is and whether his disagreement is important. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.157.66.196 (talk) 17:03, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Link to Finnish page

Why does the link to the Finnish page land on Robert Stigell rather than the Finnish Kalevala page? It seem to be correctly linked in WikiData. Akerbeltz (talk) 17:11, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Dear Akerbeltz,
Please could you help us understand exactly which link is in error? I checked the links in the Infobox and they seem to be working fine. Thank you for identifying this problem, and for your assistance.
With kind regards;
Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(become old-fashioned!)} 18:10, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Sure :) So in the left hand menu on a desktop browser, go down to Languages and scroll to Suomi. That link goes to the Finnish page for Robert Stigell, not the page for the Kalevala. Akerbeltz (talk) 12:20, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Ah yes; well spotted, Akerbeltz! How very strange... When I clicked on ‘Edit links’ (under that long list of languages), a page opens showing the links to 73 other Wikis; there is a “fiwiki” entry which definitely links to the correct Kalevala page at the Finnish Wiki, but I see no entry with text of either “Suomi” or “Robert Stigell”. Since I have never edited that page before, I will insert the {{Helpme}} template at this page and ask for reinforcements. Thank you so much for bringing this to our attention!
With kind regards;
Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(become old-fashioned!)} 14:52, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Dear helpful colleagues at the Help Desk;
Please would you kindly read the exchange immediately above and provide an explanation for this error, then possibly also suggest a course of action to fix it and by whom, as I have never worked in this area of our encyclopaedia? As always, very many thanks for your helpful assistance.
With kind regards;
Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(become old-fashioned!)} 15:03, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

 Fixed There was a manual inter-wiki link at the end of the page's markup, which was over-riding the info at WikiData. —Scottyoak2 (talk) 15:32, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your extremely prompt intervention and fix, Scottyoak2 ! I never thought of looking down into the back matter, but will remember to do so next time I come across the same symptom! One learns every day...
With kind regards;
Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(become old-fashioned!)} 15:42, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Ah mystery solved, thank you :) Akerbeltz (talk) 09:27, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Wikilinking in first sentence

The lead starts

The Kalevala (Finnish: Kalevala, IPA: [ˈkɑleʋɑlɑ]) is a 19th-century work of epic poetry compiled by Elias Lönnrot from Karelian and Finnish oral folklore and mythology,

Regarding the last four wikilinks,

1. Karelian -> Karelian language
2. Finnish -> Finnish language
3. folklore -> Folklore
4. mythology -> Finnish mythology

the first three are rather generic (to articles of a general nature, esp. No. 3), where as No. 4 is to a subject closely allied with the subject of the present article. The reader can see this using mouse-over (or by clicking the links), but I wonder if there is a way to make it more obvious. Of course, this is a quite general issue with wikilinking; there may be a style manual somewhere with recommandations on this. Any ideas? Nø (talk) 07:28, 28 February 2023 (UTC)