Talk:Joy (singer)/Archive 1

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Profile image issue - Request for discussion

In accordance with the recommendations regarding the dispute resolution process I would like to request further discussion pertaining to Joy’s profile photo. Joy's original profile photo was recently changed without any reason listed to a fansite photo of her walking in a carpark. The issues with the photo are as follows: Firstly, the photo was not taken during an official schedule and was instead taken without permission beyond the airport arrival area which is widely considered stalking fansite behavior and inappropriate. Secondly, the image shows the subject in motion as they are walking in a carpark and has another person visible in the background. Thirdly, the precedent for profile images is the use of photos from photocalls, official events, and red carpets. There is a recent red carpet image of Joy easily available to use that doesn’t have the subject in motion, doesn’t have another person visible in the background, and is from an official photocall. There wasn’t any compelling reason for Joy’s original photo to be changed in the first place, but when I edited the image back to the original photo my edit was undone by an editor. As a compromise I then edited the page to include an updated 2019 red carpet photo and explained my action in the summary. However this edit was also changed back to the carpark photo by the same editor. I would hope that a consensus could be reached going forward, with either the profile photo reverted to the original image (Joy at KMF 2017.jpg) or for the updated red carpet image (Joy Park at Bulgari Event 2019.jpg) to be used as a compromise. Thank you. (Edited to add that again in accordance with the dispute resolution process I attempted to discuss this issue on the related editor’s user talk page and I have also put a note on their talk page @Alexanderlee requesting for them to come to the article to further discuss the matter). User:Netd8 (talk) 20:40, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

WHERE did you get an idea that only "official" pictures should be used? See Wikipedia:Image use policy#Privacy rights, pictures taken on a sidewalk of the street CAN be used. Snowflake91 (talk) 09:32, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
As I stated, there are multiple issues regarding the photo including that the photo was taken with the subject in motion and with another person visible in the background. I did not state that only official pictures can be used, but that the precedent was to use photos from "photocalls, official events, and red carpets". When there was no compelling reason provided for the image to be changed in the first place from the original, and when there is a photo available to use that has the subject stationary and with no people in the background, it seems correct to use that photo or the original image instead. Netd8 (talk) 10:52, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

User Raolae continually reverting edits and adding unnecessary revisions to Joy (Singer) page

I have moved this conversation to the Joy (singer) Talk Page

In just the last month the user Raolae has made 26 edits on the wikipedia page of Joy (Singer). Some of the changes were useful such as creating a new section for endorsements, however many of the edits have deleted citations, deleted italics, removed information, and involved unnecessary rewording of paragraphs that have made the content more difficult to understand and are poorly worded. I have attempted to correct these edits, however Raolae has now undone my revisions three times in less than 24 hours. I have also noticed that previously you have had to correct their multiple edits on this page too, so I am not sure how a consensus can best be reached with this user. Thank you for any help. Ldnyellow (talk) 04:30, 11 September 2020 (UTC)


@Ldnyellow:Excuse me, Ldnyellow. You have been the one removing citations under the 2020 (digital chart citations) section. Also, Joy's wikipedia should be factual/bibliographical, but it's has so much unnecessary fancruft that is added to it, descriptions of things that do not need to be described, long-ended paragraphs. I am a Joy fan too, but if fellow singers like Taeyeon had such descriptive wikis, it would be entirely too long. We need to highlight the notable parts of Joy's career, not create a book that serves fan purposes and leeways from Wikipedia's purpose, which is give objective, descriptive data.

Also, the edits that Alex fixed was an issue on my part. I go between visual edits and manual ones, as well as fixing that one section (copy to paste) which possibly was the reason the italics ended up being removed. But it wasn't my intention to remove it, it's just I didn't notice it went from being italics to regular font. Raolae (talk) 05:40, 11 September 2020 (UTC)


@Raolae:@Raolae I will put this discussion on the talk page of Joy (singer) so we can hopefully reach a consensus. I will note that as my edits show, I have not removed any citations under the 2020 (digital chart citations) but have instead revised the kcharts information to what is actually stated in the citation listed (a citation I provided). Your edit lists individual chart positions on Naver for example but does not provide any source. That is why I edited the information to show the correct translation of the article, the Gaon charting, and Billboard charting. I have actually been the editor who has been continually updating the chart positions and providing their citations, and translating Korean articles accurately. I would suggest that you do indeed look at Taeyeon's page as an example, which the previous edit was far more closer to in terms of content than your revised version now shows. The new edits you have made are often grammatically incorrect, more descriptive and less objective than the previous text, and have removed citations and information according to your personal discretion and not according to any necessity. For example, you have deleted all quotes from producers regarding Joy's voice in the public image section because you stated it is "fancruft". However, Taeyeon's page lists multiple quotes throughout her article without any issue. I would agree that only one quote is needed from a producer, but removing all quotes is unnecessary. My intention is to provide properly referenced information regarding a person's career and hopefully we can come to a consensus. Ldnyellow (talk) 22:48, 11 September 2020 (UTC)


@Ldnyellow:Hi - @Ldnyellow, I don't intend to fight or make this a big deal. It does not deserve to appear in the talk:Joy (singer) page as my edits have been in good faith. I am vandalizing her page to you? I am just trying to make it better while adhering to the guidelines, just like you claim too as well. If I forget a citation in said revision, that was not intentional. Also, since we are talking about it already, Taeyeon arguably has a long, solo career and impact in singing that warrants descriptive area of her talents. I also think Joy deserves a good page to highlight her career (hence me fixing that section), but those quotes and run-on sentences to highlight her achievements aren't need to show that achievement. Also, fancruft is "a term sometimes used in Wikipedia to imply that a selection of content is of importance only to a small population of enthusiastic fans of the subject in question. The term is a neologism derived from the older hacker term cruft, describing obsolete code that accumulates in a program." You have made good edits, but there are parts of it that are going to categorize Joy's article as too fan-centered, and it will put that unnecessary tag on top of Joy's article, which neither of us want of course. Please check similar articles like Wikipedia:Too_much_detail.... it is a good starting point. Anyway, again, I'm not here to fight. Hopefully we can all continue to help Joy's article and others articles like it.

Peace!Raolae (talk) 23:30, 11 September 2020 (UTC)


@Raolae:@Raolae This discussion needs to be included on Joy's talk page since unfortunately it seems we have not yet been able to reach a consensus and we will need to enter the next dispute resolution process, for example seeking a third opinion. As I stated previously, I understood some of your earlier edits which included creating a new section for endorsement, however as can be shown through looking at the history of your recent edits on the page (including 26 edits in the last month), you have unnecessarily reworded paragraphs making them grammatically incorrect and poorly structured with informal language, and you have unnecessarily deleted information and citations.

1. An example is your edit which changed a sentence to: "In 2018, Joy began hosting, her first gig being the co-host of the second season of JTBC music variety Sugar Man alongside top TV personalities Yoo Jae-suk, You Hee-yeol, and Park Na-rae." The previous sentence was this: "In January 2018, Joy became the co-host of the second season of JTBC music variety show Sugar Man alongside top TV personalities Yoo Jae-suk, You Hee-yeol, and Park Na-rae." I would argue that the previous edit was more concise and less descriptive.

2. Here is another example of your edit: "At the end of 2018, she also was cast in the Lifetime's mini-variety show Pajama Friends, alongside Song Ji-hyo and Jang Yoon-ju, as well as release "Dream Me" (with Mark Lee) for KBS's The Ghost Detective." Firstly, in Korean variety vernacular there is no such thing as a "mini-variety" show. Secondly, the use of "the Lifetime's" and "as well as release" is grammatically incorrect within this sentence. The previous edit was "In July 2018, Joy was chosen as one of the hosts of Lifetime's new variety show Pajama Friends, alongside Song Ji-hyo and Jang Yoon-ju. In October 2018, Joy released the soundtrack song "Dream Me" (with Mark Lee) for KBS's The Ghost Detective." I would again argue that this previous edit contained better structured sentences and was clearer than your edit.

3. You have said that you are concerned about run-on sentences, the inclusion of too many details, and being too descriptive, yet this is precisely what you have been doing through your edits. Your edit contained this sentence: "In December 2019, Joy became the sole female member of athletic variety show, Handsome Tigers, alongside Cha Eun-woo, Lee Sang-yoon and Seo Jang-hoon" which added the unnecessary detail of Joy being the sole female member. The previous sentence: "In December 2019, Joy was confirmed as a cast member of the new variety show, Handsome Tigers, alongside Cha Eun-woo, Lee Sang-yoon and Seo Jang-hoon" was sufficient and did not need to be changed.

4. You edited this paragraph to read: "In 2020, Joy released three songs. She first featured in tvN's Hospital Playlist, “Introduce Me a Good Person”. The song became number one on Naver, four on Genie, Bugs, five on the Billboard Korea K-pop Hot 100 Chart,[48] six on Melon, and attained 364 million Gaon digital points. After appearing in multi-collaboration project, "Evergreen" to support medical professionals during COVID-19, she featured with R&B artist Crush for his song, "Mayday". Achieving a Genie roof hit, it topped Melon R&B Soul Music Chart. Joy would rank second on the Melon Female Solo Artist Chart and in September, appear tenth on Gaon Social Chart." Firstly, the second sentence is both grammatically and factually incorrect as Joy did not "feature" in the song. Secondly, there is no need to list the individual kchart positions when the cited article actually states "The song reached number one on multiple charts". This is both more concise and an accurate translation of the source. Thirdly, the previous edit contained the correct dates and order of events. Your edit deleted this information and unnecessarily reworded the paragraph.

5. It is true that unnecessary details should be removed, however when I deleted this unnecessary sentence: "The drama is a South Korean adaptation of Kotomi Aoki's popular manga Kanojo wa Uso o Aishisugiteru" you reverted my edit.

6. It is also not "fancruft" to provide a quote from a producer or artist regarding Joy's voice in the public image section. This is not about being a "fan", it is simply about providing relevant and properly referenced information. There was also no valid reason for you to also delete the quote from Vogue Magazine since the section is regarding public image. It should also be noted that Taeyeon's section is titled "Public image and impact" however you reverted my edit when I changed the title to that. I believe the section should indeed be titled as such and not just "public image" since both are addressed.

7. You have unnecessarily deleted this part of another sentence: "with Joy receiving official songwriting credit from KOMCA." There was no reason to remove this from Joy's career section as it is relevant and properly cited.

8. You also deleted Joy's nomination for OST of the Year, stating that the Brand of the Year Awards are "media awards". This is blatantly incorrect. The Brand of the Year Awards are conducted annually by the Korean Consumer Forum and voted by the Korean general public. You also deleted Joy's nominations for Beauty Icon and Beauty Icon of the year. There is no reason for this information to be deleted and its inclusion does not make Joy's article too "fan-centered". You have stated that you are concerned that the previous edit could be tagged as such, but there has never been any issue with regard to her article and it is strange to preemptively delete information which has never been in contention in the first place.

There are further things that should also be discussed, but I would suggest that the current edit is returned to the previous wording and that the citations and information that was unnecessarily deleted be re-added. Hopefully we can reach a consensus, or we can move on to the next step of the dispute resolution process. Ldnyellow (talk) 00:54, 12 September 2020 (UTC)


@Ldnyellow:Ldnyellow,

1. "Joy began hosting" - it is a great way of describing her in her biography to continue the flow and change in what she tackled. Like Dwayne Johnson, he was a wrestler first before acting career. Joy is a singer/idol, than started hosting. Since this is her first major hosting job (which led to other hosting jobs). I don't see an issue here and it's better than what was previously written.

2. Pajama friends, I named it mini-variety, because it's similar to a mini-series drama (Less than 15 episodes). It's a real thing, and there is categories over it in South Korea "Best Actress in a Mini-series/Limited series", etc. When I was reading the description of Pajama Friends on a Korean article, it described it as limited series. I cannot find the article, but it has been described as such and is under the correct description as a limited TV program anyway.


3. There are differences between over description and notable things to include. We might have differing views on that, but I felt that it was needed because it was an all male-basketball team, with Joy having a pivotal role as their female manager. That's really it.


4. She did featuring collab. It was not a duet collab. All the Korean articles, even English articles describe it as a feature. If you go to Joy's Korean articles via Naver or Daum it is a feature. What is wrong with my description here, and why is it subject for argument?


5. It is important to say it is an adaption. Joy stars in Liar and His Lover drama based completely on it. It is necessary to keep in the article.


6. I have already said that I genuinely believe in some instances, too much description, even if properly sourced and describes the subject at hand, is not under Wiki standards - check Wikipedia:Too much detail and Template:Overly_detailed, and read it thoroughly. Your long ended Quotes are different from my necessary points like "began hosting" "sole female cast member".


7. Songwriting credit - when I looked at the article, it mentioned Joy was a songwriter, but songwriting credit from KOCMA was not mentioned anywhere. Not even when I searched up on Naver. So I removed it because it did not have a source to fully back up KOCMA certification. You can search for it then add it again if you find a proper source. I believe fan voted or the new media awards that have no ceremony or are not credibly acknowledged are similar to Soompi Awards and forum-similar awards. There is a fine line and we should be sure than include it firsthand.


Peace!Raolae (talk) 03:30, 12 September 2020 (UTC)


@Raolae:

1. Joy did not actually begin hosting in 2018, but the sentence could be rewritten as: “In January 2018, Joy began her first fixed hosting position as the co-host of the second season of JTBC music variety Sugar Man alongside top TV personalities Yoo Jae-suk, You Hee-yeol, and Park Na-rae." The use of “fixed” is necessary since Joy did not begin hosting in 2018. The use of the colloquial expression “gig” in your previous edit is also inappropriate for a wikipedia entry.

2. There is no reason to categorize Pajama Friends as a “mini-variety”. It is not similar to a mini-series drama, as variety shows often don't have a fixed episode order like dramas do. The citation provided in the article states that it is “a new variety program” which is exactly what was written before you changed this sentence. You should not edit things based on something you may have once read but have not cited, and which conflicts with the actual cited article.

3. Stating that Joy was the only female in the cast remains an unnecessary detail, especially when you have yourself raised the issue of providing "too much detail".

4. To clarify, you have incorrectly written that Joy featured in “Introduce Me A Good Person”. I was not referring to “Mayday”. Every article refers to “Introduce Me A Good Person” as a solo song and the sentence should be changed to: In March 2020, Joy released the solo song “Introduce Me a Good Person” for tvN drama soundtrack, Hospital Playlist."

5. It is unnecessary to write a description of the drama or that it was an adaptation. Anyone who wants further information regarding "The Liar and His Lover" can click the linked article for the drama.

6. There is nothing in Wikipedia’s standards that conflicts with including a sentence like: ‘R&B artist and producer Crush commended Joy in his Billboard interview stating: "she's got the most beautiful voice that's impossible to replace”. The section is “public image and impact” and the quotes provide a source to the statement that Joy has been praised as a vocalist. It is a necessary point. It is incorrect to say that no quotes can be included because it would be "too much description" and not under "Wiki standards".

7. The source provided for the KOMCA certification is correct and proper. The songwriting credit is already written in the citation which links to the official Melon page for the song. Melon only lists songwriters who have KOMCA certification and Joy is listed as a songwriter on the official page.

8. The Brand of the Year Awards are not “fan-voted” or “new media awards”. This is the 18th year they have been conducted. They are run through the Korean Consumer Forum and are voted by the Korean general public. They actually do have an annual ceremony and are credibly acknowledged in the industry. There is absolutely no equivalence to a “forum-similar” award. That is incorrect. You have unfortunately repeatedly deleted information and citations based on false information regarding the Korean entertainment industry, and unnecessarily reworded entire paragraphs. Ldnyellow (talk) 05:28, 12 September 2020 (UTC)


Ldnyellow,

It was her first official hosting position. YES - her first fixed job as a host. It will stay :) You have a skewed view of necessary detail, because description that is one or two added adjectives is not a run-on quote like yours, or the media awards that you mention that do not have integrity. Nevertheless I have not seen Brand of the Year be mentioned often enough in Korean wikias, even fan wikis on Namu. Even if it does have a judge behind it or voted on by the GP (for example, so is TC Candler, but they are not particularly "credible" even though people cite it). KOCMA, if legit, is not mentioned in any Korean artist Wikia. I'm sure Psy, Crush, IU and etc all have KOCMA certifications as they are songwriters, but it is not written in their page. Why? Because even if it shows professional merit, it is not necessary to include. When something is adapted, is often included in even the actor's bio to premise the project itself. So I'd like to again tell you that even though you wrote in proper grammar, spelling and referenced well--Wikipedia is not a book. It's for general reading; Wikipedia:Too much detail and Template:Overly_detailed.

Also here: Wikipedia:Notability#General_notability_guideline

Peace!Raolae (talk) 09:20, 12 September 2020 (UTC)


@Raolae:

You have stated that “Wikipedia is not a book. It’s for general reading”. Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia created through collaboration with the intent to provide accurate neutral information with a formal tone. All of the issues I have raised regarding your edits have been in accordance with this intention. My wanting a Wikipedia page to be properly referenced, grammatically correct, and containing objective information is not the equivalent of providing “too much detail” or trying to write a book. In the last month you have made 26 edits on Joy’s page, most of which have involved unnecessarily rewording paragraphs (including adding an informal tone), arbitrarily deleting citations, and removing information according to your personal views without evidence or reason.

1. Joy’s first official hosting positions began in 2017, when she hosted various events and guest hosted music shows. Joy’s first fixed hosting position began in 2018. To accurately reflect this information the sentence should be changed to: In January 2018, Joy began her first fixed hosting position as the co-host of the second season of JTBC music variety Sugar Man alongside top TV personalities Yoo Jae-suk, You Hee-yeol, and Park Na-rae."

2. In contrast to your statement that I have a “skewed view of necessary detail”, I am very clearly following the guidelines created by Wikipedia. Again, you have not taken on board any of the cited facts regarding the Brand of the Year Awards and for some reason are continuing to call them “media awards” and stating that they “do not have integrity”. Your view point has no factual basis. The Brand of the Year Awards have been conducted for 18 years and are legitimate awards administered by the Korean Consumer Forum (they are also listed on other pages including Hyeri, ITZY, D.O.) There is no valid reason for their exclusion on Joy's page.

3. KOMCA is the legitimate certification association in Korea for songwriters. If the specific reference to KOMCA in the body of the text is what is contentious then the sentence could instead be written as: “with Joy receiving official songwriting credit”. The citation that has already been provided shows a valid source for this information. Ldnyellow (talk) 22:23, 12 September 2020 (UTC)


Ldnyellow,

The thing is for #2: Hyeri WON the award (Brand of the Year Awards). Joy was simply nominated. That's why I kept "Best Female Variety Idol Award at the 2020 Brand Customer Loyalty Awards" (Joy won), even though it was a "media award" (I know you've come to hate that word). But being only nominated in a media-centric award is in my opinion, not notable enough, i.e. please please read: Wikipedia:Notability#General_notability_guideline. For #3, KOCMA exists, yes I understand. But it is not mentioned in any other Korean artist for their wiki. Because it has no page in itself for English wikia. Nor is it referenced as a standard for describing songwriters. #1 I will fix, changing "began" to "pursued".

I have provided further information, citations, and reasoning behind each of my points. Unfortunately, you have negated the majority of these points regardless of the objective facts (which have included valid source material and grammatical corrections).

Peace!Raolae (talk) 22:44, 12 September 2020 (UTC)


@Raolae:

1. You have previously argued that the Brand of the Year Awards are "not legitimate" awards, but are now arbitrarily saying that your issue is that Joy was only nominated. You are also continuing to incorrectly and repeatedly state that they are "media awards". It is not a question of whether I "hate" a word, it is a question of accuracy and objective facts. Again, the Brand of the Year Awards are run through the Korean Consumer Forum, they are not "media awards". This is an online encyclopedia, it has nothing to do with personal opinions regarding words. You have also linked to an article regarding "general notability guidelines" which has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Many of your edits seem to be based simply on personal view points with no actual evidence or reason.

2. You have again made a blatantly false statement. KOMCA does have an English Wikipedia page, and it is the standard certification body for songwriters in Korea. As I stated, if the issue is regarding including KOMCA in the sentence then that part can be changed to: "with Joy receiving official songwriting credit."

3. Changing "began" to "pursue" is still insufficient, and you are still using the informal word "gig". The sentence should be: “In January 2018, Joy began her first fixed hosting position as the co-host of the second season of JTBC music variety Sugar Man alongside top TV personalities Yoo Jae-suk, You Hee-yeol, and Park Na-rae." Ldnyellow (talk) 23:29, 12 September 2020 (UTC)


Ldnyellow, 1. You keep mentioning this, but I have an opposing view. Objectively, if it's just a panel nomination for some media award (and Joy didn't win), it is not necessary to mention.

2. KOMCA is legit and referenced, but it is not described in any or majority of Korean songwriter's wiki. It IS cited, though. It doesn't need to be said in Joy's career section. Again this is not a detailed book, it is to cater to a general audience. I will, again, mention this: Template:Overly_detailed.

3. Both sentences can be used. But mine is not wrong... It is not insufficient, because even though "gig" is a slang (just like many words in Wikipedia), it is a very, very commonly used term amongst many officially relevant artists page. A few many references B*Witched, Girl Thing, James (band), and so on.


Peace!Raolae (talk) 03:05, 13 September 2020 (UTC)


@Raolae:

1. I am mentioning this again because it is not an opposing "view", it is an objective fact. Wikipedia must be neutral and objective, it is not a place for unverified individual opinions. The Brand of the Year Awards are legitimate awards. You should not have deleted the information or the citation, especially since you have still offered no evidence to corrobate your claims or opinion. This is similar to your use of the word "mini-variety" which you have admitted you don't have any citation for but proceeded to change based on incorrect information.

2. Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia. I am not sure why you believe that necessary and important information, such as stating that Joy co-wrote a song, should be excluded, but then assert that unnecessary information (such as specifiying that the drama "The Liar and the Lover" was an adaption of a specific Japanese manga) is a necessary detail?

3. The Wikipedia guidelines state that articles should be written in a formal tone. The examples you have cited are the use of "gig" in the context of a musician's employment for a musical performance. The sentence in Joy's article is referring to her employment as a host for a variety show, not for a musical performance. "Gig" used in the context of referring to a temporary job outside of music is usually viewed as a colloquial and informal expression. Once again, the sentence should be changed to “In January 2018, Joy began her first fixed hosting position as the co-host of the second season of JTBC music variety show Sugar Man alongside top TV personalities Yoo Jae-suk, You Hee-yeol, and Park Na-rae."

I have now made a request for dispute resolution.



My last note: Ldnyellow, You are allowed to do so. You too are deleting citations. I am deleting information that does not conform to Wikipedia's guidelines, such as unnecessary quotes and KOCMA (never mentioned in any Korean wiki).

The term "gigs" and "pursued hosting" are descriptive words used to continue Joy's narrative (and generally used on many, many wikipedias). And I still believe that noting that "The Liar and his Lover" is an adaptation is very necessary as well. Because Yoon So-rim's character is based on the manga's character. This is done in many wikipedia's too, four examples Kim Go-eun, Park Seo-joon, Park Min-young, Kim So-eun, I can go on and on. This sentence was never originally written by me anyway. It should be kept.


Peace!Raolae (talk) 18:24, 14 September 2020 (UTC)


@Raolae:

As I previously explained, I am the one who actually added the citations. You are the one who has deleted citations and changed information. For example, you unnecessarily reworded the previous paragraph regarding "Introduce Me A Good Person" and added individual kchart positions such as Genie, but did not provide any new citation for this information. You only used the citation I had previously added, but removed the actual translation of the article that stated the song "reached number one on multiple major charts". This should be corrected. You also stated that Joy featured in “Introduce Me A Good Person” when this is incorrect as it was a solo song. You also unnecessarily deleted the reference to Joy’s songwriting credit for “Young Love”. This should be corrected.

None of my edits have been against Wikipedia’s guidelines and there was no reason for you to revert my edits three times in less than 24 hours when I was correcting the information you had deleted and fixing grammatical errors. In contrast, in the last month you have made 26 edits, most of which were based on your personal preferences with no citations or reasons given. This is against Wikipedia's guidelines. You have deleted award nominations based on incorrect information, deleted the direct translations of citations, removed all quotes in the public image section based on your personal preference, removed reference to a songwriting credit, added incorrect information, and made numerous grammatical errors. You have referred to your wish to write "Joy's narrative", however Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia. It should only include properly cited and accurate information in a formal tone, which is why I am trying to correct your edits.

I have been compelled to post on the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard and have delivered the notice on your talk page as we have been unable to reach a consensus. Ldnyellow (talk) 11:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Notice of Dispute resolution noticeboard discussion

This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help this dispute come to a resolution.

Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you!

.

Ldnyellow (talk) 11:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC)


Ldnyellow, Your edits have been against Wikipedia's guideline. Your edits have made Joy's page too detailed, and contain too much fancruft, that it does not support Wikipedia's general reading requirements. I am a fan of Joy's too, but it deserves a neutral tone and factual basis. Most of all: You putting so many quotes, media awards mentions (was only nominated - not generally relevant), KOMCA description (Joy's one and only writing credit, she is not known as a songwriter at all)... Things that improperly describe Joy/have not even affected Joy's career enough that would improperly emulate her as one through general readers? It is not the best description of her, and I have asked a fellow editor and she agrees. Wikipedia:Obscure does not mean not notable. Among many others. We have been replying to each other for so long - and since you are the one bringing up the dispute, you should message a moderator or someone to equal ability to solve this. Thanks.

Peace!Raolae (talk) 23:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC)


@Raolae:

Your assertion that my edits have been against Wikipedia’s guidelines is completely false and misguided. Adding two quotes to the section on public image is not “too detailed” or “fancruft”. My edits are fully cited and properly referenced. Instead your deletion of these quotes with no reason outside of personal preference is actually what is against Wikipedia’s guidelines. My edits have been neutral and factual, in contrast to your edits which have provided no citations or objective reasoning. Again, as I have explained now multiple times the Brand of the Year Awards are not “media awards”. This is a distinction you have entirely invented. Similar to your invented category of “mini-variety”. You have provided no factual basis for your edits but continue to reiterate the same incorrect statements without any effort to compromise, even regarding grammatical errors or when objective facts are presented to you. I have already compromised and stated that KOMCA does not need to be included in the sentence, but that Joy writing the song is a fact not a description and therefore should be included. A person does not need to be known as a songwriter in order to include the fact that they have written a song. Your sentence “improperly emulate her as one through general readers” again has no factual basis. That is simply your personal preference, it has nothing to do with Wikipedia’s guidelines. I am not sure why you keep stating that you are a fan of Joy. My edits are based on accurate objective facts in accordance with Wikipedia’s requirements. I have posted on the Dispute resolution noticeboard and you can respond in the section for Joy (singer) on that noticeboard. Hopefully they can help resolve this dispute. Ldnyellow (talk) 09:30, 16 September 2020 (UTC)



Ldnyellow, Please check notability guidelines. Nomination from a media is not notable. Nor is mentioning Joy's KOMCA 1 songwriting credit. It is not written in any other Korean songwriters descriptive bio, only in their songwriting page or discography section. Peace!Raolae (talk) 18:24, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

3O on infobox image

@Alexanderlee and 웬디러비: (a.k.a. Wendylove): We generally like to have centralized discussion on the article talk page for Third Opinion requests, but I think I pieced together enough from User_talk:웬디러비#Joy's article and the edit summaries.

Joy in October 2019
Joy in January, 2020

3O Response: The discussion seems to be about a series of back-and-forth edits switching the infobox image in Joy (singer) between File:20191002_조이.png (a 2019 photo which has been in the article for a couple years) and File:Joy_at_ICN_Airport_on_January_10,_2020.png (a 2020 photo). Each is displayed to the right.

I'm going to first address GA criteria 6 which requires only that media be tagged with its copyright status (with fair use rationale if applicable), be encyclopedically relevant and have suitable captions. In their use in the edits, each image equally satisfies the GA criteria. For biography guidelines, each is a portrait photograph of the subject alone (both good). As for image quality, I feel like they both display well enough at infobox size. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images#Image quality notes characteristics of inferior photos (dark, blurry, cluttered, ambiguous or too small) which I don't feel apply to either image.

Digging deeper, I found a few guidelines which seem to be in favour of the established infobox image. MOS:LEADIMAGE calls for a "representative image" and states that the image should be the type of image used for similar purposes in high-quality reference works. WP:BLPIMAGE says to avoid situations where the subject did not expect to be photographed. The established photo appears to be at some sort of media event where the subject presumably expected to be photographed and had groomed her appearance accordingly, while the second is a more candid (though public) shot. So, while I don't see anything inherently wrong with the newer image, and I can understand the argument for a recent and everyday-representative image over a more staged image, BLP is policy rather than a guideline and I think we have to respect the subject in this, and assume that she was more comfortable with her photo being taken at the media event, that her groomed appearance is more recognizable in her notability as an actress/singer, and that this is more consistent with a picture that you'd see on a high-quality biography.

The newer image could possibly be included later in the article, perhaps under section Personal life.

This is a non-binding third opinion, but I hope it helps –  Reidgreg (talk) 15:51, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinion. Maybe this -The newer image could possibly be included later in the article, perhaps under section Personal life- could be the mediation for conflicts. -- Wendylove (talk) 01:32, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
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