Talk:Johnny Winter/Archive 1

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Re. Introduction

Might we have a better introductory para? He is well-known as the young slide guitar wizard who came out of Beaumont with an excellent debut album, part of a million-dollar record deal with Columbia. And yes, Columbia signed him because the label's executives heard about the "Rolling Stone" article. He is known for his scorching tune on his debut album, "Dallas," sung and played with real conviction. His fame includes the way he helped Muddy Waters finally get back to making great records. These points are in the article, which is good. I just wonder whether the skin-pigment condition is important enough to make it to the first paragraph. (It is interesting, though, that he is an extremely white-skinned master of an African-American art form.) DBaldwin 18:58, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. A stronger intro is in order. Plus, genealogical details should be moved to the main body. --Docblueson 05:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it is interesting that "Winter" is his real name. I always thought that was a stage name that played on his albinism. Shocking Blue (talk) 10:03, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Re. Discography

Live at the Scene Club

Somebody said:
[snip] the discography does not mention the ablum, "Live at the Scene Club." [snip] featuring Johnny, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison, and Buddy Miles, most famous for Morrison's extreme intoxication and vulgar, drunken rants. Most searches on the web list it as a 1968 recording, but I have a picture disc LP that labels it as 1967. [snip]

Somebody else disputes this:
Sorry but Johnny never met Jim Morrison and [snip] is not on that recording. He did [snip] play often with Jimi Hendrix and recorded a cut with him and Steven Stills.

Snipped the above to better track the raw data related to the issue. --Docblueson 05:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Johnny and Jimi can clearly be heard playing together on tracks that do not involve Jim Morrison. For an extended interval, Jimi sings and Johnny plays. Stonerprof (talk) 04:42, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source for this? It seems that the only sources for Winter's participation are the liner notes to the bootleg albums on which these appear and the commentaries that rely on them. However, several Hendrix biographers note that this is a frabication (see album article for sources). In interviews, Winter has denied involvement in this jam and the albums (with or without the tracks with Morrison):

There was a record out that everyone said was us [Hendrix and Winter]. 'I Woke Up This Morning and Found Myself Dead' was a jam recorded at the Scene [in March 1968] with Jimi and Jim Morrison and me supposedly—but it wasn't me... It really worried me that they had that record out and said I was on it when I wasn't." (Raisin' Cain: The Wild and Raucous Story of Johnny Winter, p. 104, Sullivan 2010)

See also the linked interview with Winter cited in the article. Also, Morrison clearly vocalizes on "Bleeding Heart", which is on side one of the LPs. —Ojorojo (talk) 14:02, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Re. Article Body

Language Used to Refer to Persons with Albinism

While the most common term for an individual affected by albinism is "albino", most of them prefer "person with albinism", because "albino" is most often used in a derogatory way. [snip] The above is taken from the Wiki entry for albino. [snip] Lets do it right [snip] [email protected]

Yes. Done. (Snips included mere chat and exortations.) --Docblueson 05:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Re. Miscellaneous Issues

I removed some back and forth about why a show was cancelled and what Johnny is up to "right now"... not appropriate here. --Docblueson 05:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Lawsuit against DC Comics

Someone may want to add this information to the article.--Robbstrd 22:46, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Added: Excerpted / Edited paragraph from the Jonah Hex article. Putting it in the "Recognition" section seems odd, but I suppose there exists both positive and negative recognition. --Whbjr (talk) 05:20, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 17:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

More material

http://www.musicianguide.com/biographies/1608004828/Johnny-Winter.html. This site may be useful for expansion purposes. : Albion moonlight (talk) 11:24, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Bad link

The "I'm ready"-link ends up at the wrong place ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.224.33.2 (talk) 23:39, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Birth Place

Allmusic.com states Johnny Winter was born on "Feb 23, 1944 in Beaumont, TX" while this wiki article disagrees. Would someone furnish with a proof which disagrees with AMG and agrees with "Leland, Mississippi"? 202.3.77.11 (talk) 15:49, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

imdb also states he was born in "Beaumont, TX" so I am going ahead for the change. 202.3.77.11 (talk) 15:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Strabismus?

i heard that he and edgar have Strabismus also albinism —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.208.221.43 (talk) 20:56, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Unsused sources belong here, not external links

These sources do not ever belong in External links. I have moved the link farm there to this talk page where they do belong. Warning: I didn't check them over, so be careful in choosing any references here. Thank you! --Leahtwosaints (talk) 10:29, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Death

(Admin note) There are unconfirmed reports of his death. If reliable sources become available then by all means update it. However, at this time there is only a blog (blabbermouth) citing a Facebook page.

If the death is reliably confirmed, use this diff as a starting point. Cheers Manning (talk) 09:43, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

American Blues Scene have confirmed it too. [1]

They are citing the same unreliable Facebook update. Manning (talk) 10:11, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
American Blues Scene also say: "We have written several thousand articles and we always verify our sources. We are all deeply saddened by his passing. If you've been a fan of us for long you'd know how much we adored Johnny." But, we can wait and revert to the version linked above. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:24, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I checked that article, they are citing a PR firm called "Kid Logic Media", who I couldn't find on Google. There is no mention on Winter's website or Facebook page either. Granted it could all be true, but it's just not reliable enough yet. Manning (talk) 10:37, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Kid Logic Media are here - but it doesn't help. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:10, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Zurichs police and the news agency dpa both confirm the reports that Johnny Winter died in zurich tuesday night. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.92.10.162 (talk) 10:52, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Please release the article. He passed on the night to Wed on July 16th in Zurich, Switzerland in his hotel room:
http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/johnny-winter-ist-tot-a-981534.html
http://www.americanbluesscene.com/2014/07/johnny-winter-dead/
VINCENZO1492 10:58, 17 July 2014 (UTC)


And a.b.s. is citing Carla Parisi (Kid Logic), PR Manager for Johnny VINCENZO1492 11:00, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Well, Vincenzo, I already used the american blues scene link before. Norum 11:01, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

There do now seem to be ample sources in German (not surprising as he was in Zurich). Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:03, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
@User:Norum: Sorry, did not see that. Biggest german news agency dpa and biggest german news mag spiegel confirmed that he passed away. Plenty of german announcements are online, but this is still protected. VINCENZO1492 11:11, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I appreciate your urgency, but the German articles are citing the same source as the ABS article, or citing each other. And I can't find any web presence for Kid Logic Media. We've been burnt before on falsely reported deaths. Better for us to be a bit late, than to embarrass ourselves again. I'm watching the English language media closely and will unprotect immediately if it is confirmed. Manning (talk) 11:14, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
OK, confirmed by AP. I am removing protection. Manning (talk) 11:16, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, but you are absolutely wrong User:Manning Bartlett. The German articles citing Zurich Police as confirmed by the news agency dpa. Please start trusting other users if you don't speak German. And I guess especially as an admin you should? And: also Germans news agencies and magazines are reliable and often ahead of American sources - like in (real) football ;-) VINCENZO1492 11:24, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
The protection had been removed eight minutes before you posted your complaint above. Manning (talk) 11:31, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
No worries, I understand that you careful about death news. But if you want to be correct in minutes: I quoted the German sources 18 min. before you removed the protection. After that you gave a wrong translation / understanding of this German source into discussion and waited for the Americans, but the Germans did not cited the facebook source but police & news agency, thats why I posted it - trust me I recognized your caution before. Extremly strange is that I am getting Kid Logic's web page as a first result incl. his PR-managers contacts: http://kidlogiclovesyou.com and you can't find anything VINCENZO1492 12:59, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Read WP:NOTNEWS. It would be irresponsible of me to act based on a news report I cannot personally understand. And you are a red-linked user, so I have no knowledge of you, hence I cannot take a position of trust in what you say. Manning (talk) 19:55, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Later Career

I used to see Johnny Winter regularly sitting in with the band on one of the late-night shows, Letterman or Tonight Show or maybe even Saturday Night Live (I forget which – might have been more than one). I saw him at least a dozen times, so it must have been a regular gig, as rarely as I watch those shows anymore. This deserves mentioning in the 'Later Career' section, if someone has the details. Shocking Blue (talk) 10:09, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

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Unauthorized/gray market compilations

So why can't these be in the Article? They are recordings by the artist. Why doesn't this qualify as [WP:CENSOR]?. I reverted your edit so the two revert rule would apply. You would have to have some pretty good reasons to keep these out of the article, so what are they? Senor Cuete (talk) 17:51, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Exhaustive discographies are generally a bad idea especially for someone who's been on so many recordings. We are not here to cover every single recording—that's better suited for sites like discogs. We are here to cover what's notable about the subject, so "selected discographies" are preferred. I don't know in what world this qualifies as censorship, and you should be discussing here instead of edit warring (not concurrent with edit warring). Keep it up and you'll be reported to WP:AN/3. --Laser brain (talk) 17:59, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
If there's no Wikipedia guideline on this they have to stay. The fact that you don't like them is not enough reason to censor them. When you express your personal opinion you shouldn't refer to yourself as "we". You certainly don't speak for me or the other editor that added them. Senor Cuete (talk) 18:26, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
Looking at the material you deleted, it appears to cite reliable sources. Doesn't this mean it has to stay? Senor Cuete (talk) 18:31, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
WP:DISCOGSTYLE#What should not be included includes "Bootlegs, unless officially released, or can otherwise pass the general notability guidelines to deserve a separate article." The article text includes "According to one biographer, only about fifteen percent of Winter's commercially available recordings are legitimate, leaving 85 percent that he had no control over.[Sullivan (2010), Raisin' Cain: The Wild and Raucous Story of Johnny Winter]. Why attempt to add legitimacy to releases that are falsely identified, doctored with later overdubs by other musicians, etc.? —Ojorojo (talk) 18:54, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
I agree with Ojorojo here, although I think we might be dealing with a language barrier or something with the above user. Hopefully they are able to comprehend the arguments and guidelines. --Laser brain (talk) 19:48, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
Wikipedia strongly discourages personal attacks. Senor Cuete (talk) 20:40, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

I too think that it's better to leave out the unauthorized and gray market compilations. I've reverted the article to the way it was before the discography was changed, here. As far as I know, those are all authorized compilations. Note also that all of them either have a reference or have their own Wikipedia article. I'm open to further discussion, but I think we should try to reach some sort of consensus, or at least majority opinion, before adding or removing any albums. — Mudwater (Talk) 22:28, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

OK, but I don't think Winter Essentials 1960 – 1967 (Varese 2003) should be included – I didn't find an AllMusic review (the AM link is to a search page that lists albums by various artists that contain the word "Winter"). How about creating a separate JW discography? It's getting too long to be in the main JW article. It can include a section for his pre-Columbia singles,[2] which seem to have more legitimacy than the numerous bogus albums that try to exploit them. —Ojorojo (talk) 23:05, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
About Winter Essentials 1960 – 1967, I've updated the link to the reference, which was archived. About adding a section for pre-Columbia singles, that sounds like a good idea. About having a separate discography, I'd prefer to keep the discography as part of the main article, even if it's rather long. I think that's more convenient for the reader, and this discography is not as extensive as some others, like the Beatles or Sun Ra. But if most editors think it would be better to split it out into a separate article, I could live with that. — Mudwater (Talk) 23:24, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
Better with the AM Winter Essentials review (I wonder why it's no longer available on regular AM?) – seems to obviate all the other early collections. If his pre-Columbia singles are added, the later ones should be also. That would definitely make the article too long. The Albert King discography and Elmore James discography (a FL) are examples of less extensive discographies that work well. —Ojorojo (talk) 23:56, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
"Unauthorized/gray market" could be subject to interpretation. Some of the removed discography was listed as being produced by major labels. Senor Cuete (talk) 00:31, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
If an album was released by a major label, then it was probably an authorized release. I think it's possible that some of the recently added and removed titles were authorized. Can we discuss them here first? If each album had at least one reference, that would help a lot. — Mudwater (Talk) 01:34, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
Winter has stated several times over the years that neither he nor his then-management authorized the various compilations of his pre-Columbia material. He was never signed to Janus, GRT, Buddah, etc., and didn't record any new material for them. Early on, he did record several singles and demos for various managers/producers and, after he became famous, they sold the tapes to several smaller companies, who in turn issued the compilations. Winter asserts he wasn't consulted for the releases and never received any payment. Often with new cover photos of Winter in concert and unclear or lacking explanatory liner notes, they competed directly with his newly recorded material. Track listings show significant overlap and Winter noted some were unprofessionally overdubbed with different musicians, presumably to make them seem newer. The buying public may have fallen for the first 1969 compilation, The Johnny Winter Story, which reached number 111 on the album chart, but only his newer recordings for Sonobeat (re-released by Imperial), Columbia/Blue Sky, Alligator, Virgin, Megaforce, etc., appeared in the charts.
WP:NOTEVERYTHING states: "Information should not be included in this encyclopedia solely because it is true or useful. A Wikipedia article should not be a complete exposition of all possible details, but a summary of accepted knowledge regarding its subject." WP:DISCOGSTYLE adds: "Unofficial releases of any kind" should not be included in discographies. Readers should not confused by placing the early compilations along with Winter's official output. Adding Winter's pre-Columbia singles would provide a more accurate picture of his early work.
—Ojorojo (talk) 17:58, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
@Ojorojo: Thanks for the detailed explanation. I think you're on to something here. So, some of the compilations currently listed in the article were not authorized by the artist, it seems. Although on the other hand, they were released legally, so they're not true bootlegs either. So, maybe they should be taken out of the article, or maybe just listed separately, as "unauthorized legal releases". Could you please list the albums in the current version of the article that fall into this category? For example, First Winter is on the Buddah label, so that's one of them, right? It would be helpful if you could list them all here. Then we could decide whether to take them out of the article, or what. P.S. Do you know of any authorized compilations, or other authorized albums, that are missing from the list? I'm not aware of any, but we want to make sure to list all the authorized releases. — Mudwater (Talk) 22:45, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
Winter specifically mentions problems with the 1969–1970 compilations The JW Story (GRT), About Blues (Janus), and First Winter (Buddah), which contain about 37 different tracks. These, plus releases containing the same tracks or by the same companies or affiliates should be considered unauthorized. (Because they were not considered worth the cost to litigate does not make them "legal"; smaller companies (these aren't major labels) have lower overhead and are able to make money selling albums in smaller quantities.) That said, I might include The JW Story because it was the first and charted and Winter Essentials 1960 –1967 (with the AllMusic review) because it seems to collect all of the material from the early releases. Compilations by the record companies listed in the "Studio albums" section are probably OK, but those without actual reviews or WP articles may not be noteworthy. What do others think? —Ojorojo (talk) 02:44, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

"Winter specifically mentions problems with the 1969–1970 compilations..." He isn't mentioning anything now. This would need a reliable citation or it's WP:OR. During his early tours he was telling the audience not to buy First Winter. He said that when you're starving, you will do anything. Also I read that it contains tracks that the label attributed to him that were by studio musicians. This implies that it was authorized but a is a misrepresentation of his work. Reliable citations? Senor Cuete (talk) 15:35, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

These types of statements/questions show a real lack of understanding of the subject and/or English. As noted above, Sullivan's 2010 biography (with extensive quotes from Winter), Winter's 1979 interview in Rolling Stone, etc., provide the necessary sources. His AllMusic bio includes "Unfortunately, repackagings of Winter's early recordings continued to litter his discography throughout his career" –there is a revealing obituary for man behind much of it (titled "Good Riddance to Bad Rubbish").[3] —Ojorojo (talk) 18:02, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
Wikipedia strongly discourages personal attacks. Senor Cuete (talk) 18:20, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
Senor Cuete, it's not a personal attack to surmise that you may have a language barrier. You have consistently shown difficulty in understanding what's being said and what's written on the pages we've referenced, which would be normal if English is not your first language. --Laser brain (talk) 19:10, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
Yes, this is a personal attack. (Personal attack removed) always resort to calling people that disagree with you illiterate. I guess that this is your favorite insult. (Personal attack removed) Senor Cuete (talk) 19:38, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

This discussion has become quite heated. I suggest that everybody stop talking about the other editors who have posted here. Instead let's just talk about the article itself. In other words, let's hit the "reset" button on this discussion, even if we think other editors' past remarks have been inappropriate. Let's work together to improve the article, even if we don't agree about everything. — Mudwater (Talk) 11:28, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

After filing at report at WP:ANI#User:Senor Cuete casting aspersions, Alex Shih (a Wikipedia:Administrator) took the following action:

I have removed the unsubstantiated accusations at Talk:Johnny_Winter#Unauthorized/gray_market_compilations. For a longtime user, the poor editing behaviour and the textbook example of refusal to get the point demonstrated in their participation of the discussions is by no means acceptable. I will issue a warning at the user talk page [ User talk:Senor Cuete#Warning ]. Alex Shih (talk) 15:18, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

This is a acceptable practice as per WP:TPO: "Some examples of appropriately editing others' comments: ...Removing harmful posts, including personal attacks, trolling, and vandalism." I have restored his use of Template:RPA to replace the attacks. Anyone who disagrees should take it up at ANI, not here.
—Ojorojo (talk) 14:33, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
I've sort of lost track of the discussion, actually. As a general rule, I think a "Selected discography" should be featured on this page with notable, well-known releases that are published through normal processes. A Johnny Winter discography article can contain a more comprehensive list of normal releases (meaning there is a label, a publisher, and a catalog number). I think grey-market releases and bootlegs should be included in the comprehensive discography if there are reliable sources indicating that they are somehow notable. --Laser brain (talk) 13:55, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
WP:WPMAG#Discography section includes "The discography section of the musician's primary article should also provide a summary of the musician's major works. In most cases this is done using a simple list of their studio albums, leaving a complete listing of releases to the discography article ... Live and compilation albums, EPs, singles, etc. should generally not be included." With a separate discography, that would leave only the studio albums on the main page. A discography page would include them, plus the live and official bootleg albums and his singles. That leaves the compilations. LB's suggestion may be the way to go. Rather than trying to decide what's authorized/legitimate/etc., include those that are discussed by RSs as noteworthy. So far, I think that only leaves one or two of the compilations of his 1960–1967 material. By including his early singles, this material is not lost. By listing them, a reader is able to see the actual songs, which is arguably more informative. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:42, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
Not to get too far ahead of ourselves, but if the hypothetical Johnny Winter discography article is actually created, we should not be too quick to banish all the live albums from the discography section of this article. That guideline is a bit cavalier about live albums. The Allman Brothers Band article's discography section includes At Fillmore East, among other live albums, and the Peter Frampton one includes Frampton Comes Alive, for example. Similarly there would be some live albums that should remain listed here, in my opinion. — Mudwater (Talk) 19:55, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
Let's not overthink it. If a live album is particularly notable, we can use the model shown in Frampton. --Laser brain (talk) 21:32, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
The guideline does say "generally", which allows for noteworthy live albums like Cheap Trick at Budokan and Live at Leeds that appear on various "best of" lists. But I'm not sure that any Winter live albums rise to this level. His best known, Live Johnny Winter And, has mixed reviews. What sources may better establish notability for his live albums? —Ojorojo (talk) 17:23, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
The albums that have their own Wikipedia articles are presumed to be notable, and the ones that don't might also be notable. That's not really the question though. And whether an album got good reviews or not isn't really relevant either. It's a question of which of the albums are "mainline" releases, or part of the "core discography". That's a judgement call. I think live albums are sometimes undeservedly relegated to second-class status. I would list most but not all of them here, except the Live Bootleg Series. I'd probably leave out a few others. But we can decide all that if and when the main discography article is created. — Mudwater (Talk) 21:34, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Well, then let's settle the separate discography question. I'm in favor in creating one. Winter's catalogue, especially with the singles added, is certainly long enough and would be consistent with WP practices (see FL discographies[4]). We can open a formal request for comment if necessary. —Ojorojo (talk) 17:06, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Earlier in this section I stated a preference for not having a separate discography. But my views have evolved. Now I could go either way. I think that means that no one is opposed to the idea of creating a separate discograqphy, or at least no one who's posted in this talk page section. — Mudwater (Talk) 21:19, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

I was thinking something along the lines of the Stevie Ray Vaughan discography or the Albert King discography:
List of studio albums with year, title, details, and peak chart position
Year Title Details Peak chart
position US
1968 The Progressive Blues Experiment 40
1969 Johnny Winter
  • Released: April 1969
  • Label: Columbia (CS 9826)
  • Format: LP
 24
List of singles with year, title, details, and peak chart position
Year Title
A-side / B-side 		Details Peak chart
position US
1959 "One Night of Love" / "Hey, Hey, Hey"
  • Label: KRCo (107)
  • Note: As "Johnny Winter and the Crystaliers"
 –
1960 "You Know I Love You" / "School Day Blues"
  • Label: Dart (131)
  • Note: As "Johnny and the Jammers"
 –
Comments/suggestions?
—Ojorojo (talk) 15:35, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
That seems fine. Although as a minor point I think the tables don't have to be sortable. But, what about sections? It might be good to retain the current sections -- studio albums, live albums, Live Bootleg Series, etc. -- plus a new section for singles. — Mudwater (Talk) 19:57, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
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