Talk:John N. Shive

John N. Shive has been listed as one of the Engineering and technology good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
May 13, 2012	Good article nominee	Listed

A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on April 18, 2012.

The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that John N. Shive not only invented the phototransistor but also the Shive wave machine?

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Merger proposal[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

I'll take silence to indicate consent and go ahead. Woz2 (talk) 21:57, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I propose that Shive wave machine be merged into John N. Shive. I think that the content in the wave machine article should be part of the notable achievements of Shive which also include the phototransistor. Woz2 (talk) 16:03, 9 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Contested deletion[edit]

This article should not be speedy deleted as having no substantive content, because I'm merging content from a subset article. Thanks --Woz2 (talk) 16:12, 9 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Result: Article was kept. Lesson learnt: never try to create an article in-situ Always draft a sandbox version first. Woz2 (talk) 12:27, 22 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:John N. Shive/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Viriditas (talk · contribs) 05:01, 29 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your contribution in reviewing GANs. I'm watching this page for your feedback when you are ready to post it. I'm happy to respond with improvements if I'm able. Cheers! Woz2 (talk) 10:49, 29 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'll let you know when I'm finished. Viriditas (talk) 23:31, 29 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lead[edit]

Schrödinger asks, is Shive alive or dead? There's no birth or death date in the lead. Viriditas (talk) 23:34, 29 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Selected works[edit]

J. N. Shive, Physical Review, Vol. 75, p. 318, 1949
J. N. Shive, Physical Review, Vol. 75, p. 689, 1949

References[edit]

Served as an appointed Director at Large of IEEE in 1968.[1]

Checklist[edit]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
~~I merged the see also section inline~~
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
~~Is he alive? Educational history? Notable published work?[2][3][4]~~

Do the notable elements in William_Shockley#Solid-state_transistor regarding Shive appear in this article?

The infobox image caption mentions a film. Is this the film "Simple Waves" (is this title correct?) listed in the Physical Science Study Committee article? Shouldn't his biography list it or discuss it?[5] Apparently, there were two films: Simple Waves and Similarities in Wave Behavior.[6]
The one in the info box is the second, longer one Similarities in Wave Behavior which is posted by AT&T and cited. I can't find any other record of the early, more elementary one Simple Waves Woz2 (talk) 13:45, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a book review? (American Journal of Physics, April 1984, Volume 52, Issue 4, pp. 381) It might have something useful for expansion. I'll request a copy on the resource exchange board.
Thanks. Pls let me know if you get access. Woz2 (talk) 13:45, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There's a review of his book, The Properties, Physics, and Design of Semiconductor Devices, in Solid state technology, Volume 2, Issues 4-12. In fact, it appears that there are reviews of all of his work.
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Two non-free images might pose a problem, and they appear to be used appropriately in order to illustrate the subject and his invention. However, I'm concerned that the second image might fail the minimal usage requirement of WP:NFCC because both images illustrate the wave machine.
Yes. Pity. I'll remove it. Woz2 (talk) 13:46, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We might be able to add it back in if we can get a hold of the numerous book reviews on the subject and expand a section on the book. Viriditas (talk) 10:11, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Overall:
Pass/Fail:
The current version is not broad enough as a biography and does not represent the main aspects of a typical subject (birth, death, early life, education, notable works). For ideas on how to expand this topic, see the link to the Proceedings of the IEEE I added above. I don't know the full history of this article, but it looks like the remnants of the Shive wave machine merge with a sprinkling of biography thrown in for detals, making it somewhat coatrack-y and less biographical. Please expand the biography based on the IEEE sketch, and other sources like it. Viriditas (talk) 23:59, 29 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good now. Viriditas (talk) 11:24, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I googled everywhere for a bio like the one you found at IEEE. May I ask how you found it? I'll be very happy to add it. Woz2 (talk) 00:34, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Google fu? Viriditas (talk) 00:45, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Google-fu is what I want... but how to get it? The weird thing is I also have unlimited access to IEEE Xplore and I wasn't able to find this one there either... Woz2 (talk) 00:54, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I took the liberty to add birth and death dates, as well as a starting infobox, but there's a lot more to do. I hope you have some time during the next week. Viriditas (talk) 10:30, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Looks like the centenary of his birth is February of next year... maybe it could be improved all the way up to FAC and be on the front page Feb 22, 2013 :-)... I assume I have until Sunday eve EDT to improve it? Woz2 (talk) 11:16, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just do what you can do. If you need two weeks, that's fine. I may be able to help as time permits, but you will need to expand the main points. Viriditas (talk) 21:28, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Woz. Thanks for asking me to chip in.

I'll dig into some sources and see how I can contribute. As a non-technical person, I don't understand a lot of what the article is saying, so I might be able to help interpret for the layperson, once I get a grip on it. User:King4057 (COI Disclosure on User Page) 16:39, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! A few of us have created a sandboxed version at User:Woz2/John_N._Shive/Workspace to kick ideas around. Reviewer User:Viriditas found three good refs (above) that we can work in. I've contacted the archivist at Bell Labs (Dan Rubin) to see if they have anything. Woz2 (talk) 16:56, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I copy-pasted the sandbox improvements we've been working on this week across to the live article. How is it now? Cheers, Woz2 (talk) 18:31, 6 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'll get back to you in a few hours. Viriditas (talk) 07:11, 8 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Getting there, I think. I'll address the two points (second film, and intersection of Shive & Shockley) ASAP but in any case by this weekend. Cheers! Woz2 (talk) 11:17, 8 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You may want to see this. Lots of new material there for expansion (click "full view"). Viriditas (talk) 11:32, 8 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, well. Not as much there as I thought. But, at least it fills in some more of his career and provides a few choice quotes. Viriditas (talk) 11:42, 8 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again. If the use of both non-free images is problematic, I prefer to keep the first because it shows both Shive and the machine. Woz2 (talk) 11:50, 8 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How is it now? Woz2 (talk) 14:01, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Good. Can you expand the lead to talk a bit more about the most important aspects of Shive's contribution to the development of the transistor as already noted in the body of the article? Viriditas (talk) 10:30, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sure! How about now? Woz2 (talk) 10:46, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There's no mention of Becker J. A., and Shive, J. N. "The Transistor – A New Semiconductor Amplifier," Electrical Engineering Vol 68 (March 1949) pp. 215-221. Viriditas (talk) 20:39, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also The Properties of Germanium Phototransistors. JOSA, Vol. 43, Issue 4, pp. 239-243. Viriditas (talk) 21:06, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Add them to selected works? Woz2 (talk) 22:11, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and you still have a lot of his work in the references section. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lists of works for ideas. Viriditas (talk) 23:14, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note, I've formatted the works in IEEE style. Viriditas (talk) 05:07, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The article currently says "Shive is best known for inventing the phototransistor in 1948" however, in the article Phototransistor#Other_modes_of_operation, it says 1950. Can you correct one or both of these articles? Viriditas (talk) 04:21, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It would be nice to get a clean, color image of the wave machine with the Bell Labs logo like this.[7] Viriditas (talk) 05:07, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a free image of a phototransistor available? Viriditas (talk) 05:41, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please explain, very briefly, the impact of the invention of the phototransistor in the lead, specifically how Bell Labs used it. Viriditas (talk) 05:41, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I'll keep working on it. I'd like to get it to FAC for the centenary. Thanks for your contributions esp. all the links you found.Woz2 (talk) 11:29, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Additional research and FA prospects[edit]

Hi Woz, I did some background research on the article today, and you'll see that I added one more citation via Google Books, verifying his February 1948 discovery (note for other readers: the changes I describe are not to the live article, but this userspace draft). However, I did not find much out there—in Lexis-Nexis, just a single 1987 AP story about the three inventors of the transistor, which mentioned him only in passing. I think this has a good chance of attaining GA status in the near term, however FA may be a challenge with so few in-depth sources. That said, I made a number of MOS-specific improvements, and now King4057 seems to be taking it in a somewhat different direction. I'll wait to see where he gets it before I continue, although I will say I liked the slightly longer sections in top-level headings, i.e. Bell Telephone Laboratories. Anyway, there's clearly time to work out the details. Cheers, WWB Too (talk) 03:33, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Yes, the bad news is there isn't much out there. The good news is time is on our side. I'm sure Bell labs archives have a ton of stuff. I mentioned the centenary to them and prodded them to dig it up. Woz2 (talk) 13:39, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I switched it back to Bell Telephone Laboratories because it seems that was the name in use at the time. I piped it to the Bell Labs article. Woz2 (talk) 20:40, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sources[edit]

I'm just going to use this section to list sources that I find. Everyone else is free to do the same here as well. Silver seren^C 19:41, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Need to read the sources better, you're already using that one. Silver seren^C 19:43, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Silicon Materials Science and Technology: Proceedings of the Eighth International Symposium on Silicon Materials Science and Technology - This has a bit more information on what Shive built. Silver seren^C 19:44, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Power for the World: The Emergence of Electricity from the Sun - Not sure if the sentence in here is useful. Silver seren^C 19:46, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Semiconductors and the Information Revolution: Magic Crystals That Made IT Happen - Can be used to back up some of the info on the device. Silver seren^C 19:50, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Shive Wave Machine Allows Visualization of Wave Properties - As an expert blog, this should be reliable. We might want to check at WP:RSN first, but it should be good. Silver seren^C 19:54, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This blog is mine, so I can't cite it myself due to COI but I'd be happy if someone else does. It does add a contribution in the form of the table explicitly mapping the wave machine mechanical quantities to electrical transmission line quantities. Woz2 (talk) 20:16, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I totally forgot that was you. :P Silver seren^C 20:20, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

:P to you too! ;-) I added a request edit below for consideration. Woz2 (talk) 20:36, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The invention of the transistor - This might just have the same info as in the book by Riordan and Hoddeson, but it deserves a look to see. There might be something new in here. Silver seren^C 19:58, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! It gives the exact page number in his notebook of his wedge experiment (Shive, J. N., 1948, Bell Labs Notebook No. 21869 (AT&T Archives, Warren, NJ).pp. 30–35) and describes it as "crucial" Woz2 (talk) 20:16, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Request edit[edit]

{{Request edit}} At the end of the Shive wave machine section please add a sentence citing my posting:

A table explicitly mapping the wave machine mechanical quantities to electrical transmission line quantities has been posted.^[1]

References

^ Warwick, Colin. "Shive Wave Machine Allows Visualization of Wave Properties". Agilent Technologies, Inc.

...if worthy. Woz2 (talk) 20:31, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As written, the sentence would solely be a promotional plug for the mapping. If it was used to add information to the article it could be okay. Ryan Vesey Review me! 16:18, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Countdown[edit]

The centenary of the birth of John N. Shive has started. (refresh) Can you help us get the article to home page featured article on that day, February 22, 2013? Woz2 (talk) 01:22, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest starting a peer review and pulling in as many people as possible to it (for example, by helping out at other peer reviews and then requesting the nominator help out at yours). That would be the best way to get this cleaned up for FAC. Silver seren^C 19:26, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Sundial[edit]

’’The spherical sundial on campus, in front of the bookstore and next to the library, is dedicated to his memory for his lifelong desire and service toward improving the teaching of physics.’’

A user added this in 2017 and I haven’t been able to verify it. I suspect it is true, but Wikipedia requires a source of some kind. Viriditas (talk) 02:58, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Update: it took me a while, but I finally found a source, based on a 1995 Art Inventories Catalog survey for the Smithsonian American Art Museums. I will attempt neutralizing it and adding it back in with the new source. Viriditas (talk) 07:51, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Warwick, Colin. "Shive Wave Machine Allows Visualization of Wave Properties". Agilent Technologies, Inc.

[1]