Talk:Iran–Israel proxy conflict

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Title Change- Israel Hamas War[edit]

Since the talk page has been completely protected away from any discussion by smaller accounts, I say this here-

With the drones set to hit Israel soon enough, the wars, conflicts, should all be merged into ONE article. the conflicts have become intertwined. IEditPolitics (talk) 22:06, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. They're distinct enough to merit separate articles. David O. Johnson (talk) 22:21, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That article would be too long, and then we'd have to split them into different articles again. JohnR1Roberts (talk) 22:44, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree on merging here. It would be better to have this article with summaries of others and page links. Alexanderkowal (talk) 01:51, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Open warfare[edit]

Recent developments suggest a significant escalation from what has traditionally been characterized as a proxy conflict to more direct military engagements between Iran and Israel.[1] In the Iran–Israel proxy conflict the article reads “This is the first direct military confrontation between the two countries since the beginning of the Iran–Israel conflict.”

Given these developments, I believe it may be necessary to reconsider the title of or make a new article to ensure it accurately reflects the current nature of the conflict.

I would also like to note the date format, as technically the proxy war is over, should the date say 16 February 1985 – 1 April 2024? LuxembourgLover (talk) 02:32, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The proxy war is over. As of this writing Israel has not struck Iran. We wait on events. kencf0618 (talk) 03:34, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As of yet, I wouldn't consider it an end to the proxy conflict, since the Al-Asad Airbase retaliation for the Assassination of Qasem Soleimani didn't lead to a direct conflict between the United States and Iran. But this is still recent, nobody knows about the possible escalations that could follow suit. Christophervincent01 (talk) 04:14, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

With additional strikes being made by both sides, I think the "proxy" part of the contlifct is over. LuxembourgLover (talk) 15:48, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 15 April 2024[edit]

It has been proposed in this section that multiple pages be renamed and moved.

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Links: current log • target log • direct move

Iran and Israel are now attacking each other directly, and in the past they have carried out cyber attacks, direct covert operations and other actions other than supporting proxies. Therefore, the title is not correct and needs to be changed. Parham wiki (talk) 19:04, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. Cfls (talk) 21:06, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nomination. This is a hot war now and no longer a proxy war. RS even acknowledge this directly ("Analysis | By attacking Israel, Iran turns shadow war into direct conflict"). The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 21:09, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - we have a separate article for the ongoing direct conflict in 2024, so we should ask ourselves whether we want to cover the proxy conflict separately or not. – Asarlaí ^(talk) 21:47, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - also, might I suggest Israeli–Iranian or Iranian–Israeli, to match Israeli–Palestinian conflict, Israeli–Lebanese conflict and Arab–Israeli conflict. – Asarlaí ^(talk) 21:50, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever the new title is, the current one is no good because it's no longer just a only simple "proxy war". Therefore in favor of support removing "proxy" on title of article. That of 2024 is just a new phase and battle. 5.91.127.57 (talk) 13:42, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose both The scope of the Iran–Israel proxy conflict article is far bigger than just the direct conflict starting this year, going back to 1985. In addition, we already have an article titled 2024 Iran–Israel conflict, so there is no need to make another one. The Russia and the Iran–Israel proxy conflict does not cover the direct conflict between Iran and Israel, but rather the proxy conflict many years before the direct one, so a move does not make sense. Gödel2200 (talk) 14:05, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As we assess this, we may want to reevaluate whether "Iran--Israel proxy conflict" is even a framing that's actually supported by RS. Reading through an arbitrary selection of the article's sources, I'm not seeing examples of sources themselves calling conflict between Iran and Israel a proxy conflict--at most, they describe some groups as Iranian proxy groups (meanwhile, there is only one group identified as an Israeli proxy, which has at most engaged in a handful of targeted assassinations). We can't infer this lens of describing the conflict simply from the presence of proxies, that would be WP:OR. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 14:29, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like there's some coverage with this framing indexed by Google Scholar, but it's limited to publications we typically consider non-RS: undergraduate theses and student journals (e.g. [1] in Sentris). _signed,Rosguill ^talk 14:41, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: change the date to 16 February 1985 – 1 April 2024. LuxembourgLover (talk) 17:48, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom, particularly since one side acts directly and one side uses proxies Alexanderkowal (talk) 02:01, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Changed to Oppose both Alexanderkowal (talk) 16:58, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support – Due to the escalation of the conflict. Svartner (talk) 12:11, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose both: the scope of this article is the description of almost 40 years of conflict operated mostly indirectly, so not a "direct conflict" as the renaming would imply. The fact that in these days things may escalate does not change this substantial aspect, nor it justifies renaming arbitrarily the past. Eventually, this relabelling for 1985-2024 period, would be up to future historians, not up to us living things directly as they happen. Furthermore, for the time being the conflict has not yet assumed the characteristics of a direct conflict. Even in the unlucky case things between Israel and Iran get worse, this article deserves an existence on its own, with the current title. It is the detailed background leading to today's situation, that would turn into something totally different if it turns out into a real direct war (hopefully not). If that would be the unlucky case, that should be described on an article totally apart. Changing the title, or at least, doing it now, would be hasty. We don't even know how things will evolve, we cannot predict the future and state, as for things are today, that "there is already a real conflict and all the past we considered as "proxy" has suddenly become a direct conflict".--Superspritz (talk) 13:05, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the points made here need to be refuted before any change Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:08, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose both: the outbreak of direct conflict between Iran and Israel doesn't mean that the proxy war never was a proxy war, it means the proxy war has ended. If the Cold War went hot, I doubt the article on it would be called US-USSR conflict. The scope of this article should remain on the years of indirect warfare which led up to the current conflict, anyway.

ZionniThePeruser (talk) 16:29, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose both: per @ZionniThePeruser rationale. There is already the article 2024 Iran–Israel conflict, that documents the current conflict, which could be renamed to Iran–Israel conflict in the future if the conflict continues beyond 2024. Also per @Superspritz comment, this article documents the history of the proxy conflict, whereby the content hasn't suddenly changed due to the current conflict/crisis.
Suggestion: Add hatnote to aricle for 2024 Iran–Israel conflict for people who want to read about the current conflict and not the proxy.

CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 16:36, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose it's too soon to make this change based on recent events. Additionally, if events escalate, this article should still be kept in-place; if the USSR and the US went to war in the 80s, it's not like we would've renamed the "Cold War" article. Elli (talk | contribs) 23:27, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose both Even if this became a "hot war" renaming this article and making the last four decades of proxy conflict moot would not be the correct path. The better way (if it is deemed to become a conflict which I have serious doubts on) would be to have this article cover 1985 to 2023 and then a new article on the conflict itself. Yeoutie (talk) 15:11, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]