Talk:Institute of Chartered Accountants of India/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Accounting Technicians are not members

Accounting Technicians are not Members of ICAI so do not add Accounting Technician or AT in the member's designations in the article stub.

Copyright concerns

The whole article has been rewritten and edited to resolve the copyright violations. I kindly request users not to blindly copy contents from ICAI website since all ICAI.org contents are copyrighted in favour of ICAI. Hence be careful while adding content, else the article may be blocked for copyright concerns once again similar to what happened on 25 March 2010.R.Sivanesh Proud to be an Indian (talk)

Violations!

please understand that wikipedia is not an online-classified server. And consider restraning yourself from adding your firms name and contact details in the Notable section.

If you're really NOTABLE , someone else will do it..and it will look much like a reference rather than an advertisement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Everdawn (talk • contribs) 14:01, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The Notable CA firms section is a mess. I am going to remove all entries that don't have a WP article. There are probably some notable firms among them, but these sprawling lists serve no purpose whatsoever and violate Wikipedia:NOTDIR, and any firms that are actually notable should have articles about them anyway. --Bonadea (talk) 10:32, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Removal of Notable Firms Section

I thought it would be better to get the notable CA Firms Tab removed. After all the Institute's members are supposed to be Equal Citizens of the Brotherhood. Further no member can claim himself to be superior over another. Hence I got the topic removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.89.20.129 (talk) 16:56, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Copyright concerns

On 25 March 2010, this article was tagged for copyright concerns, though no source was identified. Investigation suggests that most of the lead is copied verbatim from the official website. A good bit of the other material seems to be duplicated in this February 2009 document [1]. The copyright status of this material needs to be clarified, I'm afraid before we are able to publish it on Wikipedia. If the content is imported, we will need to verify licensing. See Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials if you are the copyright owner, or Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission if you are not.

I have removed some extensive quotations in accordance with non-free content policy and guideline. I'm afraid we are only to use brief quotations unless licensing for this material is also verified. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 22:49, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

One or more portions of this article duplicated other source(s). The material was copied from: [2], [3] and [4]. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl (talk) 17:40, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Separate articles on standards issued by ICAI

The text at the top of Accounting Standards Issued by ICAI should be merged here to the extent that it is not present already. The table is not needed in Wikipedia as it does not meet WP:General notability guideline. The separate article on auditing standards is of no interest to readers of a general encyclopedia and should be deleted. - Fayenatic (talk) 14:13, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Dear Fayenatic This Article should not be removed since these Accounting Standards are applicable to all entities in India. Hence it is useful to all users in India.R.Sivanesh Proud to be an Indian (talk) 16:20, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Link to the relevant pages of the ICAI website would be sufficient. These articles are little more than directories, and Wikipedia is not a directory. Accountants and auditors in India are unlikely to use Wikipedia as an alternative reference to professional standards, and no other readers would be interested. - Fayenatic (talk) 11:39, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
Ok, I agree with your view. It will also be difficult to maintain the pages. Hence I request that you continue with the merge of pages related to Auditing as well as Accounting Standards. R.Sivanesh (talk) 13:51, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 Done Thanks for your co-operation. I hope this does not put you off contributing here again! WikiProject India can always use more help. ICWAI needs work for a start. - Fayenatic (talk) 19:59, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Always happy to contribute R.Sivanesh ✆ 17:35, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Remove Past President's list

I propose that the list of past presidents should be removed. Wikipedia is a encyclopaedia so it should contain only information which is useful to all users. The list of past presidents does not serve any purpose. That too a lengthy list like this will make the the article ugly and awkward. You may further note that this article is a been failed as a good article nominee 3 times. So the concentration at this point should be to improvise on this aspect and get the good article status. So unnecessary info like this should be removed and quality should be improved. I request your views in this regard. R.Sivanesh (Talk) 04:20, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Good idea. The relevant guideline is WP:NOTDIR. As some of the past presidents had achieved a wider notability, evidenced by their own articles in this encyclopedia, I thought it was useful to leave them in, as well as the first and the latest president. - Fayenatic (talk) 08:12, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

"Chartered Name cannot be Questioned"

A few exceptional cases will not lend the professional reputation of Chartered Accountants fade out. Even today soo much of trust and confidence is vested on Chartered Accountants in India. Hence citing individual cases, one cannot question the reputation of a profession. User:Costfavour seem to say that after sathyam fiasco no one trusts chartered accountants. Its like saying after enron scandal,it was dooms day for the whole CPA profession in the US. Hence reputation of Indian CAs cannot be questioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SivaneshR (talk • contribs) 03:07, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Unless they are supported by direct quotes from independent citations, please do not include WP:peacock terms like "respect and honour" in articles. Be objective. Strive for a true and fair view! (Hey, that needs an article too.) In Wikipedia terms, WP:Verifiability and WP:NPOV. - Fayenatic (talk) 19:43, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

No Charter

Even after my rewriting so far, the article is still confusing on the impossibility of a charter. It says there is no Royal Charter because India is a Republic, but states that the CA Act was passed before India became a republic. I'm not sure I understand India's political status in the period 1947-1950; could a Charter have been possible? I accept that the constituting document was an Act rather than a charter, but some further clarification in this article would be worthwhile. - Fayenatic (talk) 19:51, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

During the period between 15th August 1947 (India's Independence Day) and 26th January 1950 (India's Republic Day), the country was considered to be a Dominion of the Queen of United Kingdom. But a separate nation distinguished from the UK. But the Queen was only a De Jure head of State. But De Facto the governor General was the head of state. The Queen could not in anyway interfere in the affairs of independent India. Hence in such a condition, the Queen could not be asked to grant a Charter. R.Sivanesh ✆ 14:23, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
So was a charter legally possible but politically unacceptable? - Fayenatic (talk) 07:04, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

I highly reprimand the user who has replaced the ICAI Emblem with the CA Logo. Both CA Logo and ICAI Emblem are two separate identities of ICAI. It is not that the new Logo has replaced the ICAI Emblem. CA Logo was introduced to create brand image for the CA Professional and not as a replacement of the ICAI. ICAI emblem alone should find place in the infobox. The details of the logo may be added elsewhere. Hence I am undoing all the edits done by the issue. However I must respect the intentions of the user to add details about CA Logo. R.Sivanesh ✆ 16:01, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Sivanesh, please assume good faith, especially with new editors! You have no place to "reprimand" them; this is a collaborative encyclopedia, not a professional institute. Please read WP:BITE.
Nevertheless, your revised edits are more along the right lines.
Are you able to reply to my question in the section above? - Fayenatic (talk) 09:45, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
May be I was a little bit heavy on my words. But I really respect the intentions of the user. I would try to be soft in future. R.Sivanesh ✆ 13:53, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Intro rewrite

The present intro is just a copy paste from the ICAI website. hence someone please write a nice brand new intro. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SivaneshR (talk • contribs) 15:17, 24 March 2010 (UTC) new templates added —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.164.157.170 (talk) 11:21, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I think the History pre-1947 is quite redundant. The history of the Institute began with its formation - this entry is not supposed to be the History of accounting or the History of the Companies Act in India. Picture should also be removed as it is not relevant.WikiCpa (talk) 17:15, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Expanded content and layout

I have added some sections to expand on the content. However the layout needs some work. Can the author who has added Presidents move it under the title "Council of The Institute". I would recommend removing "notable" presidents and only keep the first and the current presidents. Also please add the emblem of the Institute - not sure if it was there earlier and someone has removed it. It is available on the ICAI website. I have yet to add a few references so please be patient over the next few days while I work on it. Thanks. WikiCpa (talk) 16:18, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Having the ICAI Emblem was very nice but it was removed recently on account of copy right violation. Can some one get the permission of the President or Vice President of ICAI to use the Emblem in Wikipedia subject to Fair use guidelines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SivaneshR (talk • contribs) 16:30, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I have added some more content and organized the layout of the Education section. I request editors to please refrain from expanding content with verbose additions and instead help in tightening the language/content. Please add references if I have omitted any.Other comments:

  • Section on History and Disciplinary Process could be tightened or split into some further sub-headers.
  • The reference to The ICAI last revised its training course for membership in 2008.[22] appears to be a reference only to the Accounting Certification and should probably be moved to the section where the certification is discussed.
  • Recommend that section on Standing Committees of the Council should be reinstated since these are a key part of the functioning of the Institute and some of the Committees are referenced in other parts of the article.
  • Logo for CAs can be moved to the end of the article. WikiCpa (talk) 05:44, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Good article defined

Hi, I have seen some of the recent edits and I think to follow Wiki guidelines it is important for the article to be clear and concise. For example all the nitty-gritty details of the Disciplinary process can be omitted as they make the article too verbose. The idea is to give brief, clear information so that an interested party can get more information. Similarly, I think the section on the examination subjects is too detailed. For style of writing also we need to omit opinions and avoid redundant language.

I will be adding some more information on Article Training since that is an important part of what the Institute does and on placements. Please feel free to add/clean up as necessary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WikiCpa (talk • contribs) 07:55, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree, and have reinstated the Essay tag which was removed without justification or explanation. As another example, the chatter about ACA and FCA status could be reduced to one or two lines. Editors should also make it a habit to provide citations when adding further contributions to the article. - Fayenatic (talk) 14:26, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
I disagree, Taking into consideration the current scenario existing in India (hi profile accounting scams), everyone should know how these accountants are prosecuted. May be the language has to be made simple but the content has to stay. R.Sivanesh ✆ 10:20, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Sivanesh - I was not referring to the High-profile accounting firms - I agree with you that should remain. I was referring to the details of the steps taken by the Disciplinary Board etc. Also the layout now looks a lot better with the steps leading to the Final exam - tighter language might help there. WikiCpa (talk) 13:26, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Designatory letters

If ICAI members are either ACA or FCA, then why does this article prefix the office-holders' names with "CA"? - Fayenatic (talk) 14:19, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

All members of the institute can use CA as their title and further depending upon their status are allowed to designate themselves as ACA and FCA. Its like for Medical Practitioners who add Dr. before their name and MBBS / FRCS after their name. R.Sivanesh ✆ 10:14, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Article issue Tag "needs to be expanded"

Can someone review the article in its currently revised form and remove the tag "needs to be expanded" as an Article Issue ? With all the additions and improvements the ICAI article now seems to have enough information even as compared to its counterparts the AICPA etc. Does anyone know how we can request for approval of the tag to be removed.WikiCpa (talk) 05:50, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

I think its time to remove the tag "needs expansion" The article has now improved from 18,026 bytes to 32,309 bytes. Any one who objects the decision may reply. R.Sivanesh ✆ 12:12, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Since the content is now pretty comprehensive I suggest we work 2 - 3 days to tighten the language. After that we should renominate the article to be tagged as a "good article". That way we can get rid of both the tags in one shot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WikiCpa (talk • contribs) 13:29, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Sure, but the article needs more clarity and in-line citations to be assessed as a good article. More Picture and other media are required. Can you arrange for a map showing the 5 regional councils? R.Sivanesh ✆ 15:11, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Sivanesh - I don't have any pictures but I did find the full form of the Motto on this link http://www.caclubindia.com/forum/success-stories-of-cas-16461.asp see if you can upload it - I am not sure about the copyright though it is from the Kathopanishad - there is one http://www.forum4finance.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/ICAI.jpg here of an MRA being signed that looks nice. The Government Diploma looks pretty neat - better than the CA certificate they hand out right now !WikiCpa (talk) 19:02, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Does the GDA Certificate look better than CA Certificate LOLz!... Sir, nice of you to search for all these content. I think we have more work to do make this article assessed as good article. I enquired with an Administrator of Wikipedia. He daid that in order to make the content reliable, we have to replace the primary sources (from ICAI website) of reference to third party sources. That is we have to find references from reliable third party books or websites. R.Sivanesh ✆ 03:44, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
So in your latest edit where you have written "replaced third party references with primary references)" did you mean the opposite ? Pls clarify. WikiCpa (talk) 19:41, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, I really meant the opposite R.Sivanesh ✆ 21:36, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
No problem. Just wanted to make sure we were looking for the correct references. Congratulations! The tags have been removed. I had put in a request to the Wiki Help desk yesterday and a kind soul responded and removed the tags and did some much needed clean up. Sivanesh - you have changed the title "Qualification" that he had edited, back to "Routes to membership" - I suggest reverting back to Qualification because that header is more appropriate - ultimately "becoming a member" involves "Qualifications" - the fact that there are two routes to membership is stated in the intro para - "Routes to membership" is not a generally accepted title and I would vote for "Qualification". Your views ? WikiCpa (talk) 03:23, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
Nice of those helpdesk ppl to respond so very quickly. I have no objection in reverting the title back to Qualification. I will do the same immediately. R.Sivanesh ✆ 03:36, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Comments

In response to the request on my talk page, here are some comments:

  • The GA requirement is that all "direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged" must be referenced by reliable sources. I made a quick skim and don't think there is anything that falls into these categories that is not referenced. Other reviewers may have different opinions, however, as there are large pieces of the article that are unreferenced.
  • Web references should include publishers and access dates.
  • There are a number of dab links that should be fixed, see here.
  • What makes Ref 15 (WeeksUpdate) a reliable source?
  • What makes Ref 24 (FeeleMinds) a reliable source?
  • What makes Ref 37 (ForumforFinance) a reliable source?
  • Ref 39 (Companies Rules, 2006) is a dead link.
  • A lot of the references are still to the ICAI website or related sources (their journal, for instance). More third party sources are always better.
  • There are a number of short sections that make the article quite choppy and harder to read. By combining some of these, I think the article will flow better.

I haven't checked prose or image licensing, so there may be other issues in those areas. I'm also not an accounting expert, so there may be broadness/comprehensiveness issues that I have missed. I would suggest working on the above issues before nominating for GA, although the article is much closer now than it was when I last reviewed it. Dana boomer (talk) 21:01, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Vandalism by persons with vested interest

I see that often persons with vested interest in ICWAI, try to bring disrepute to ICAI by editing this article. I dont know what happiness they get by doing so. These persons always tend to be unregistered users hence we are unable to contact then for consensus and requesting them not to do it again. Recently there were few such edits by one such person. He claims that ICAI is not the sole licensing and regulating authority of audit and accountancy profession in India. He fails to understand that accountancy generally means financial accounting and not any other form of accountancy. Similarly he claims that ICAI is not responsible to issue accounting standards. He fails to understand that the accounting standard issued by ICAI are applicable to all entities other than companies. Further the National Advisory Committee on Accounting Standards (NACAS) can only consider Accounting Standards recommended by ICAI and does not have suo motu authority. Further NACAS does not issue or notify the Accounting Standards applicable for companies by the Central Government of India. It will be in the best interest of these persons with vested interest not to indulge in such vandalism and instead develop the article of ICWAI with lags behind in a lot of issues. There they can claim that ICWAI is the sole licensing and regulating authority of cost accountancy profession in India. R.Sivanesh ✆ 11:15, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Protection

I've semi-protected the article for a week. Please use this time to discuss your concerns on the talk page and build consensus and I suggest that the relevant text not be deleted without a reasonable attempt at consensus. --rgpk (comment) 16:55, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Change in Nomenclature of PE-II/PCC/IPCC Examinations

The Council of ICAI decided to change the nomenclature of PE-II/PCC/IPCC examinations to Intermediate examination.[[5]]. So this article has to be updated to reflect this change. I am not sure how to do that..So somebody pls help. {{help}}--Vi1618 (talk) 02:18, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I have removed the {{help}} above, because there is a duplicate request on this user's talk page, User_talk:SivaneshR#Change in Nomenclature of PE-II/PCC/IPCC Examinations. Cheers,  Chzz  ►  02:44, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
Dear Vi1618, The matter you have brought in is true but this change has not taken effect. It is just a council resolution. Only when the Chartered Accountants Regulations are amended this change will come into effect. I think it is very premature to consider this now. If we add this to the article now, it will create a lot of confusion rather than value addition. So let us wait till the regulations are amended. R.Sivanesh ✆ 10:46, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

ohhhkk SivaneshR.. i guss u r right.--Vi1618 (talk) 01:35, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Missing

There is no mention in the article about the important committees like Board of Studies, Standing committee etc. Similarly nothing about its monthly magzine. Lastly there should be mention of controversies and cticism of the Institute. ThanksShyamsunder (talk) 09:39, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Top Best Coaching Center For C.A. Cpt Ipcc Final

http://www.subaa.in/Professional-Coaching.html http://ca-icwa-acs-coaching.com/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Subaaedu (talk • contribs) 10:59, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

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