Talk:I'll Have Another

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Great work[edit]

Excellent collaboration folks. We got this article into good shape v quickly. See you all on 19 May (or May 19) for the Preakness. Tigerboy1966  11:25, 7 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Given the party atmosphere of the Preakness, the horse will clearly be a favorite! Montanabw(talk) 17:38, 7 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I will be ready to go with my trusty bottle of English Gin by my side. Given that Frankel is running on the same day it could get a bit lively here on planet horse.  Tigerboy1966  19:57, 18 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

References[edit]

To all the people who have been adding content to this article- thanks. But remember that you need to include references to back them up. For example, the info about Lava Man acting as IHA's lead pony was absolutely fascinating, but it could have been deleted if I hadn't added a reference.

Here's how I added the reference:

1 I googled I'll Have Another + Lava Man.
2 I found a news story which said that Lava Man was acting as IHA's lead horse.
3 I copied the URL of the story and pasted it into the article just after the fact was mentioned.
4 I put <ref> before the URL and </ref> after it and Voila!
5 I then used the Reflinks tool [1] to format the reference properly: this isn't essential, but it helps with presentation.  Tigerboy1966  19:57, 18 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Questions[edit]

Does anyone know why I'll Have Another has tape on his nose when racing? I didn't see it when he was in his stall. Also, what is his call name? Great article. Love the horse - rooting for him all the way. Waytoomuch trouble

Good question: he definitely had the tape in both the Derby and the Preakness. I've never noticed that on a horse before.  Tigerboy1966  21:01, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Nasal dilator strips. All the rage over here. Montanabw(talk) 00:13, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's the answer. IHA uses "Flair Strips". Here's the non-independent evidence.[2]. It seems that they may not be allowed in the Belmont. Pretty sure they aren't allowed in British racing.  Tigerboy1966  06:30, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
USA racing has too many gadgets, gimmicks, chemicals and inbreeding. All for the fast buck, and not in the interest of the horse. Drives me crazy. (I say this as a Yank, we suck at policing things that collide with the almighty dollar) Montanabw(talk) 15:37, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is of course an Elephant in the room, put I'm not going to point it out until things settle down. Tigerboy1966  07:51, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Recent article on the topic: http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=20231 Montanabw(talk) 03:01, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Good find. This info should definitely be added to the article. (Alert! POV follows) Seems like an easy way to allow horses with respiratory weaknesses to succeed on the track and pass their genes on. Short-term benefit, long-term problems.  Tigerboy1966  06:37, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In the US, they practically inject everything with Lasix, the strips are at least preferable to racing on the needle. Hard to say if it's weakness, bad training, knee-jerk needling or what. But I will agree with your view that things that mask undesirable characteristics should be eliminated from racing for the good of the horse and the breed. Montanabw(talk) 08:27, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

two other winners of 1st 2 legs were not in Belmont[edit]

The article now says: "He became the first horse ever scratched from the Belmont Stakes after having won the first two jewels of the Triple Crown." -- I'll Have Another scratched on June 8, 1 day before the race.

There are 2 other horses who won the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness and did not race in the Belmont. This happened in 1932 and 1936, and I don't know if the above quote would be affected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.82 (talk) 18:33, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think one other, actually, in 1936, but all we need is a source. Montanabw(talk) 19:18, 8 June 2012 (UTC) "Follow up': you are correct, it was two others. Looks like we got that fixed. Montanabw(talk) 21:56, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

QUESTION: I note in the WP articles on Bold Venture and Burdoo King that both of them may also have had bowed tendons. Can anyone find a verifiable source on this? Would be interesting, if provable. Montanabw(talk) 21:56, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Burgoo King retired due to a tendon sheath injury [3] and so did Bold Venture [4]. They don't make em like good ol' tenacious Donau anymore. Froggerlaura ribbit 23:19, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Detention barn[edit]

I am putting a bit on the detention/security/quarantine barn here for further discussion. The reason I (temporarily or not) removed the material from the article for now is because there is some dispute if the barn was set up only due to concerns about O'Neill, and if that situation had any bearing on I'll Have Another's injury. Due to the high level of controversy this entails, at the very least, this claim probably needs very high-quality, reliable sources. Discussion welcome. Montanabw(talk) 17:56, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The rules for the 2012 Belmont Stakes<ref name=foxny>{{cite web|url=http://www.myfoxny.com/story/18666432/oneills-drug-violations-trigger-enhanced-security-for-belmont-stakes-runners|title=O'Neill's drug violations trigger enhanced security for Belmont Stakes runners|date=May 31, 2012 |publisher=New York Post|accessdate=8 June 2012}}</ref> stipulated that all entrants must be stabled together in a specially-designated barn, starting three days before the race.<ref name=foxny />

Discussion below:

I would definitely include this. The Doug O'Neill article has already included some pretty strong stuff, even though that's subject to WP:BLP rules. As I have discovered however, people are much more sensitive and passionate about horses than they are about humans. I know what I think about the whole business and would therefore be worried that my POV would colour the way that I would introduce this. You might be more tactful than I would be. 20:28, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

The main concern here is the source; it's a local news outlet linking to the New York Post, which is a tabloid. We need stronger evidence that there was a connection to O'Neill; the other factor was that the NYRA was taken over by the state and a new bunch is running the show, so the idea may have happened whether O'Neill was involved or not; the whole issue of cleaning up the drugs in horse racing is a big deal in the US at the moment. My suggestion is that we look for really good source material, post the links here for all to review, and then figure out what to put back in. FWIW, you are right about people, on the TV, they commented that Kent Desormeaux had flunked a breathalyzer not long ago, lost the horse he was tasked to ride in the Belmont, wound up with an also-ran. Montanabw(talk) 21:14, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The Guardian a squeaky-clean British broadsheet, mentions the security barn and O'Neill's history here [5] and more on O'Neill's "rap sheet" here [6]
My take is that stuff needs to go into O'Neill's article. The problem with linking the detention barn thing solely to O'Neill is that the NYRA hotly denies it. Seems like I've seen other precedent, but not as high-profile. NYRA also is under a whole lot of other problems on top of this, the state took them over, fired the board, etc. So my take is that the barn existed, but the trick is separating grumbling and gossip from what is actually verifiable. Montanabw(talk) 08:27, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Review of drug record[edit]

The latest, minus the press hysteria: http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=20297 And the official press hysteria: http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/sports/2012/07/12/ill-have-anothers-ailments-not-new.html

Tigerboy, you want to parse this one with a careful NPOV? Basically, one of the "powerful" painkillers was Bute, which they hand out like candy over here, the other was an antiinflammatory, not a painkiller. And they gave him an injection of something similar to glucosamine.

Of note, the following quote: "Included in the conditions of O'Neill's New York license was the following stipulation: "Access will be provided to any and all veterinary records of treatment and veterinary records; further, I will obtain records of treatment on an ongoing basis from the treating veterinarian and file these records no later than 9:30 a.m. the day following treatment with the board steward or his designee."

"Because the same requirements did not apply to the other Belmont entrants, the same kind of veterinary treatment records obtained for I'll Have Another are not available for the 11 horses that ran in the classic, so it is unknown what treatments they underwent leading up to the race."

Found some articles on osteoarthritis, the open question is how much is "normal" in American race horses, and the open question is if I'll Have Another is an example of the usual way of doing business who just got noticed because of his trainer, or if he is a unique case; particularly if we consider Big Brown as well... http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=20057&src=topic and http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=15344

And the plot thickens on how many drugs are routinely given to most American race horses... Montanabw(talk) 21:58, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just had a quick look. If anything, the non-hysterical article in The Horse is more worrying, as it emphasises the routine nature of these medications. Will look more closely over the weekend.  Tigerboy1966  22:51, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, you and I are not that far off. I think my point is to watch for a WP:UNDUE problem here vis a vis I'll Have Another speciically, or to at least address the controversy -- the NYT is hyperventilating about I'll Have Another, while they should be hyperventilating about horse racing practices in general. If Bute is a "powerful painkiller," well, even I've got a tube of it in my tack room, just like I have a bottle of aspirin in the house, it's that ubiquitous - and viewed as normal (that said, I admit my tube is probably expired after I used 2 grams of it for a couple days a few years ago when I had my 30 year old mare with arthritis needing some relief when it was 40 below in the winter ...) Trainer Doug has his obvious flaws, but on this one, he's just one of the pack. But on the other hand, while often an excellent resource on equine science and the latest research, The Horse has a bias toward the pharmaceutical industry, which sponsors tons of its advertising, so I am not surprised that the AAEP's flagship publication soft-pedals the issue. I figure you have a better shot at NPOV on this because you are farther away... ;-) Montanabw(talk) 05:32, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • How about... On July 11 the New York Times carried a report on the veterinary records of I'll Have Another, which O'Neill had been required to submit to the New York racing authorities. The records showed that the colt had been suffering from osteoarthritis and had been treated with medications described by the newspaper as "powerful painkillers and anti-inflammatory drugs".{{cite}} Three veterinarians interviewed by The Blood-Horse magazine, however, stated that the use of the medications involved (phenylbutazone, dexamethazone and polyglycan, a glucosamine-based medication) was routine and appropriate.[1] Later, the chief orthopedic surgeon at Rood & Riddle Equine Hospital, who was the AAEP's on-call veterinarian for all three Triple Crown races reviewed the records and stated, "No illegal, unprofessional, or medically unwarranted medication was given to this horse.'"[2] Tigerboy1966  18:45, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I like it, made a couple minor tweaks to the above, linking to the Blood Horse article, which has a wikipedia article - The Horse is also one of the Blood-Horse Publications, Montanabw(talk) 17:48, 17 July 2012 (UTC) Follow up One more article, should provide the needed NPOV to go into the article. This look OK (check diffs, I edited your edit). Montanabw(talk) 15:25, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/71178/ill-have-anothers-treatment-routine-care
  2. ^ http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=20309

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