Talk:Horst Wessel

Pimp and procurer, again

Where is the evidence that Horst Wessel was a "pimp and a procurer of prostitutes"? Can we have objective and substantiated facts please. RRRRzzzpppp (talk) 20:38, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

The ref was in the article, but hidden for some reason. I've unhidden it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:15, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

The two live references for your claim in the article body either are or refer back to Erika Mann's book. It should thus be correctly included as "claimed by Erika Mann" in the way your source Spartacus Educational reports it, and ideally with context on what Mann's claim was based on. Without that, you're citing a single author's claim as accepted fact, when few if any other sources report that except where it is explicitly noted as being "claimed by Erika Mann." Particularly when the same source notes that she was a prominent opponent and victim of Nazi persecution whose claims "may have been exaggerated" as an understandable result.

The source you've cited in the article lead does not claim Wessel was a "procurer," but claims that "historians agree" Wessel's death was "also related to a quarrel in the procurer scene" (in which Hohler had a well-established criminal record as a pimp http://www.jstor.org/stable/260525). The original source for Wessel being a "pimp" seems to be Rote Kahne (the KPD's party newspaper). Mann also claims Wessel died during "one of those brawls" "between workers and Nazi toughs," which conflicts with accounts of the event I can find in the article and academic sources (that Wessel was killed alone in a private dispute exacerbated by political tensions). Spartacus Educational's quote from Erika Mann's book also gives Jänicke's age as 18 in 1929, vs. the 23 claimed by other sources in the article.

The Jewish Virtual Library (cited in the article) says "the Communists portrayed Wessel as a pimp while the Nazis claimed he had actually saved his girlfriend from a life of prostitution by introducing her to the Nazi Party," clearly noting that both claims were part of efforts to "further their [respective] political aims" after Wessel's death. This seems to accurately reflect academic sources like that in the Journal of Contemporary History above, which note how Wessel's life was propagandized by both the KPD and the Nazi Party.

Putting a single source's claim as objective fact in the first sentence of the lead, particularly when it conflicts with numerous others, seems inconsistent with neutral POV. The overwhelmingly majority of sources accurately refer to Wessel as what he is/was known for: an SA paramilitary and Nazi murdered by a KPD member who became central to Nazi propaganda as a result. Including various accounts of that murder seems important, but it's equally important to acknowledge where those accounts have and do not have supporting evidence. Even ignoring the shaky evidence, it still seems like a minor detail that is not in the "most important contents" of the article. Hohler's established criminal convictions and "procuring," for example, are not put in the lead at all (as he is clearly far better known for killing Wessel, just as Wessel is only notable for being murdered by Hohler). 91.116.34.197 (talk) 21:36, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

• Added "according to some sources" to the lead. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:08, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
• Also added cite to Siemens The Making of a Nazi Hero, a definitive book on Wessel. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:29, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

  Thanks for correcting it. Siemens' book also refers to accusations that Wessel was a pimp as "the Communist narrative, in an attempt to distance the party from the crime" (https://muse.jhu.edu/article/649260/pdf). If you have specific quotes that say otherwise, please add them. In the absence of further evidence, the clear consensus of even just the sources you have added is inconsistent with the current introduction.

  I'd also like to understand why you have put so much focus on this questionable detail in the introduction, as it seems at most a footnote when Wessel is far better known as a Nazi Party/SA member, in the same way Hohler is correctly introduced as a KPD member best known for murdering Horst Wessel, as his prior activities and "profession" are far less noteworthy. Regardless of our own value judgements here, it seems the current introduction gives significantly undue weight to minor details relative to what reliable sources give. 91.116.34.197 (talk) 19:39, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

  For now I've moved it to the middle of the intro where the other details of his murder are described to be consistent with the timeline, but it seems questionable whether this should be in the lead at all. Again, all of the "sources" seem to go back to the KPD, which is noted by all of those same sources as being (obviously) politically motivated in their description of his life the same way Goebbels was, whose mere description we would clearly not put as objective truth. 91.116.34.197 (talk) 19:44, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

  I've reverted your edits, returning the article to the status quo ante, except with the additional citations. Please get a consensus on this page to make the changes you wish to make. To my eye, your suggested changes amount to an attempt to whitewash the character of Wessel, which is the last thing this article (or any article on a Nazi) needs. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:23, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

  Is removing claims that Hitler was a satanic lizard person "whitewashing"? Wikipedia is supposed to have a neutral POV, and represent "fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." That means not giving undue influence to fringe claims which discredit the entire article by their inclusion.

  The occupation you've put down as fact in the infobox is something you yourself acknowledge is merely alleged. More specifically, alleged by the organization (the German Communist Party) that the man who killed Wessel belonged to, and which is consistently described by your own linked sources as having propagandized Wessel's death.

  Adding falsehoods isn't justified simply because they make a bad person look bad. Your previously claiming the dead spirits the Horst Wessel Lied refers to as marching with the SA may have been communists suggests you're not well versed on these topics.

  I'd like to see where you got consensus to make the drastic changes to this article you originally made. Ideally without accusing anyone who asks of whitewashing Nazism. 157.25.62.132 (talk) 20:37, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

  There is nothing in this article remotely analogous to calling Hitler a "Satanic lizard person". The changes you are attempting to make are indeed attempts to whitewash a constructed Nazi martyr who was nothing but a street fighter killed over a dispute concerning a prostitute in the context of Communist street fighters battling Nazi street fighters. The evidence cited makes that quite clear, while your edits try to clean up Wessel's image. That simply is not going to happen. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:01, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

  157.25.62.132 - You're wasting your time, my friend. Any article where the hard left have a vested interest will never be from a neutral point of view, as history should be. It is simply laughable that these people actually think this vile man is best known for being a "street gangster and pimp," above all else. Actually embarrassing and brings the whole website into dispute. Stopped reading the moment I saw it and came straight to the talk page, where to my non-surprise, anyone who points out the absurdity of it is accused of whitewashing Nazism. 82.31.85.59 (talk) 17:09, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

  If you're so convinced everyone here is part of the "hard left" and so determined to write biased history, why are you participating in this discussion? AntiDionysius (talk) 22:05, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

DuncanHill Please read this talk page, like you ought to have before you reverted my edits. An elementary investigation reveals that neither of the sources support the claim that Wessel was notable for being a "procurer of prostitutes", street brawling, etc.

Randall, Annie J., ed. (2004). Music, Power, and Politics, claims: "Historians agree that his death was also related to a quarrel in the procurer scene" without providing any citations or reference to these alleged historians; making it, at best, a completely unsubstantiated tertiary source. Not exactly compelling historical evidence deserving of putting a bold claim in an article lede.

The citation of Siemens, Daniel (2013). The Making of a Nazi Hero: The Murder and Myth of Horst Wessel, does not have its text publicly available, and fails to provide a quote (only page numbers) and thus is irrelevant for the sake of this discussion, until such time that someone can provide direct quotations backing the aforementioned claims about Wessel.

Furthermore, if we examine another source in this very article: "Horst Wessel (1907–1930)" Jewish Virtual Library, it states:

On January 14, 1930, Wessel got into a heated argument with his landlady, the widow of a Communist Party member. Although the exact details of the argument are still debated, what is known is that: 1) she claimed Wessel refused to pay his rent — alternately, she may have tried to raise it and Wessel refused to pay the difference; 2) she claimed he threatened to beat her; 3) Wessel refused to pay rent for his girlfriend, a prostitute (according to some accounts, a former prostitute reformed by Wessel); since the landlady was herself subletting to Wessel, she feared she would lose the rights to her apartment because a prostitute was living there. Rather than approach the police, the landlady went to a local tavern frequented by Communists for help.

The Communists saw this as an ideal opportunity to avenge themselves on Wessel for the earlier attack. Two men, Ali Höhler, a tough with underworld connections, and Erwin Rückert, an active party member, went to Wessel's apartment. When he opened the door for them, Höhler shot him in the head. He died several weeks later from his injuries.

The shooting was immediately exploited by both the Nazis and the Communists to further their political aims. The Communists portrayed Wessel as a pimp, while the Nazis claimed he had actually saved his girlfriend from a life of prostitution by introducing her to the Nazi Party and its values.

It clearly states here that the narrative of Wessel being a "pimp" was invented by "Communists to further their political aims". Likewise there is no further mention of his alleged role in "procuring prostitutes'" beyond his lover/ex-lover being a former prostitute. This is all quite compelling evidence to remove such unencyclopedic language as has been discussed from the lede. Especially when it was done boldly, without consensus, only a few months ago, and with multiple talk page topics disputing said change. Even if these claims are completely verified, they are hardly noteworthy enough to be mentioned in the article's lede. Wessel is known for being a Nazi martyr, whom the national anthem of Nazi Germany, among other things, was named after. He is not well-known for procuring prostitutes or street brawling. 47.219.237.179 (talk) 21:57, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

All this proves is that there is some disagreement over whether or not he was indeed a procurer of sex workers, which is why it very clearly says "according to some sources". AntiDionysius (talk) 22:04, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

What are you talking about? There is no definitive primary or even secondary quote anywhere supporting the claims that Wessel was a "procurer of prostitutes". Only tertiary claims, that themselves make zero reference to where they received their info. Moreover, the point is moot, because per WP:MOS you cannot insert fresh claims, sources or no, into the lede. The lede only exists to summarize material which is already contained in the article body. Nowhere in the article body does it describe Wessel as a "procurer of prostitutes". You cannot simply bypass every form of muster Wikipedia regarding article content has to inject what you want into the lede and infobox. 47.219.237.179 (talk) 22:12, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

The issue is discussed within the body of the article as well, and sourced both there and in the lead. A "definitive primary quote" is plainly not needed to say "according to some sources". AntiDionysius (talk) 22:17, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Simply being mentioned in the article does not warrant something being placed into the lede, especially not in the manner in which it is phrased in this article. I strongly suggest you familiarize yourself with MOS:LEADBIO, which states:

The first sentence should usually state:

1. Name(s) and title(s), if any (see also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)). Handling of the subject's name is covered below in § First mention.
2. Dates of birth and death, if found in secondary sources (do not use primary sources for birth dates of living persons or other private details about them).
3. Context (location, nationality, etc.) for the activities that made the person notable.
4. One, or possibly more, noteworthy positions, activities, or roles that the person is mainly known for, avoiding subjective or contentious terms.
5. The main reason the person is notable (key accomplishment, record, etc.)

The lede is for information that is notable and important regarding the individual. Not information that is disputed and of dubious relevance. A simple Google search of Wessel's biography yields multiple results (Britannica, Holocaust Museum, Holocaust Encyclopedia, Jewish Virtual Library, Spartacus Educational) all but one of which make no reference whatsoever to alleged pimping by Wessel, and the one that does qualifies it by stating the allegation of pimping comes from a prominent anti-Nazi, and is thus unreliable.

The lede in its current form reads more like it was written by someone with a personal dislike of Wessel, than by an encyclopedia which ostensibly adheres to the principle of WP:NPOV. There is no cause to give such undue weight to information that is so peripheral. 47.219.237.179 (talk) 04:01, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Under cover, Carlson 1943 10th edition page 115. Mentioned in passing. 76.102.160.107 (talk) 20:00, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Jänicke: What is "lose them" in reference to?

"The landlady – who may have feared that she could lose them if Jänicke, whom she assumed was a working prostitute, was found to be living there"

What is "lose them" in reference to here? It seems unclear from the article itself. 91.116.34.197 (talk) 21:47, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

I've clarified that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:37, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Why is him being a Gangster and an Alleged Pimp mentioned before him being a nazi?

Wessel is only notable for being a Nazi, and for his introduction to Nazi mythology after his death. Sure, his death may have been related to prostitution, but it was also related to Nazis fighting communists. If not for being a Nazi he wouldn't have been known at all, fading into obscurity, a statistic about violent crime in Germany. Him being a Nazi should be given priority in the lead, followed by a mention of the pimping. Clone commando sev (talk) 01:56, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

See above post from 6th June. The modern left-wing have no regard for obvious truths such as this, a truth you quite rightly point out. Because this vile man was a Nazi they throw both academic objectivity and neutrality out of the window. Because, yeah, when someone mentions the name "Horst Wessel," the first thing that comes to anyone's mind is a pimp gangster. Ludicrous. Like Larry Sanger says, these people call the shots on this website, so don't expect it to change. And don't bother pursuing this any further, else you be accused of whitewashing the Nazis (no joke.) 82.37.67.100 (talk) 14:56, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

I very much agree, and struggle to find adequate reasoning, as do the people who are defending its inclusion in the lede. It is a flagrant violation of MOS:LEADBIO, WP:NOTABILITY, and WP:UNDUE. Anyone pretending like allegations of pimping is somehow more significant or notable than his Nazi martyrdom is either POV editing or participating in bad faith. The fact that this has been in the lede for so long is a legitimately troubling sign of the state of this article. 47.219.237.179 (talk) 04:10, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Furthermore, upon examining the change logs, the contentious edit in question was made by an anonymous user who did so boldly, without any discussion, was soon reverted, then re-added by Beyond My Ken. Said edit when then reverted again by about at least a dozen different users, with Beyond My Ken re-reverting the vast majority of them for no valid reason. He then stated the following in this very talk page:

I've reverted your edits, returning the article to the status quo ante, except with the additional citations. Please get a consensus on this page to make the changes you wish to make. To my eye, your suggested changes amount to an attempt to whitewash the character of Wessel, which is the last thing this article (or any article on a Nazi) needs.

in a bizarre attempt to categorize blatant MOS:LEADBIO & WP:UNDUE violation as "attempts to whitewash the character of" a Nazi. This suggests serious POV conflicts from Beyond My Ken as well as an entitled sense of ownership vis-à-vis this article. Ken also immediately started touting this contentious edit as the "latest good version" in edit summaries despite this obviously not being the case. It was a bold edit made without any discussion let alone consensus, and was immediately reverted, only for him immediately defend it as the LGV. This is suspicious behavior, and leads me to suspect bad faith, specifically that they want to put negative material in lead of the article because Wessel was a Nazi martyr. 47.219.237.179 (talk) 23:28, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, by all means, let's take extraordinary steps to ignore citations from reliable sources so as not to sully the good name of a Nazi martyr. I suggest that you PUT DOWN THE STICK. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:21, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if the material is sourced or not. To be placed in the lead of an article, it must comply with WP:NOTABILITY per MOS:LEADBIO, otherwise it violates WP:UNDUE. If you want to mention Wessel's alleged involvement with prostitution within the article body via cited sources, by all means. It does not however belong in the lead. Wessel is known for being a Nazi martyr, not for his alleged involvement with prostitutes.

By your logic, Isoroku Yamamoto should have him labeled as a "frequenter of prostitutes" in the lead since, according to Yamamoto's own wife, he was closer with his favorite geisha than he was her. Or perhaps we should put the fact that Adolf Hitler was a vegetarian and a supporter of animal rights in his article's lead? There are plenty of sources to back that up.

Yet neither of those do, because they would violate the notability clause of MOS:LEADBIO. Stop trying to give undue weight to Wessel's alleged prostitution involvement via awkward, unencyclopedic language kludged into the lead. 47.219.237.179 (talk) 06:05, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Comment on content, not contributors. 165.91.13.65 (talk) 17:59, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Who are you behind the IP number? Do you have a Wikipedia account, and are you editing with an IP to avoid scrutiny? Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:03, 14 November 2023 (UTC) So not only do you refuse to participate in discussion either here or in the dispute resolution, but your only recourse is to attack my Wikipedia account and demand I be blocked? Can you not provide a shred of logic to either defend your unwarranted reverts or refute my reasoning? You aren't doing yourself any favors here. I have yet to see you provide adequate reasoning for defending content in the lead which violates MOS:LEADBIO. 47.219.237.179 (talk) 21:11, 14 November 2023 (UTC) I've discussed the issues with good-faith editors before, and I'm willing to discuss it with good-faith editors in the future. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:21, 14 November 2023 (UTC) Your rationale in those discussions has been equally scant and wanting. I'll just take your remark as a concession by you that you're unable to produce sufficient reasoning to justify your edits. 47.219.237.179 (talk) 21:31, 14 November 2023 (UTC) First time I got a notification here, I do have to ask what your obsession is with referring to a vile Nazi as a pimp and a gangster before all else? Let alone stating that this is what this person is known for? It's absurd to say the least, and I agree with previous statements that it's fine to include such info in the body, but it has no place in the lead. 77.164.171.122 (talk) 21:43, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

@Immanuelle I am still waiting for you to show me where the alleged consensus for the changes you reverted to was formed, per the claim in your edit summary. 47.219.237.179 (talk) 03:22, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

He was not a pimp. That was a slur spread by his Communist rivals after his death. Why is there all this discussion? What he was, was a leader of street thugs who beat up their opponents, then lied about it being self-defense, all with the aim of setting up a Nazi dictatorship in Germany. He was bad enough without making him look worse. 2A00:23C7:E287:E001:74E3:39E6:7C7:74E0 (talk) 12:59, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Image of SSS Horst Wessel/USCGC Eagle

@Beyond My Ken & Immanuelle Setting aside the current content dispute, would you please explain why you reverted my edit changing the image of USCGC Eagle to one of SSS Horst Wessel? Did you just not want to put in the effort to manually revert only one change? It seems appropriate to have a more contemporaneous image of the original vessel which bore Wessel's name, as opposed to one from the 21st century. If you have a different view I'd be happy to discuss it. 47.219.237.179 (talk) 06:56, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I didn't see that image change. I approve of it Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 07:03, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Then can you self-revert/reinstate my edit? Since BMK doesn't want to participate, and you & him are the ones that reverted it then requested the article be locked. 47.219.237.179 (talk) 05:35, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

RFC on Lede Sentence

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Which of the following lede sentences should be used for the article on Horst Wessel? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:46, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

A. Horst Ludwig Georg Erich Wessel (9 October 1907 – 23 February 1930) was a German street gangster and, according to some sources, a procurer of prostitutes who became a Sturmführer ("Assault Leader"), the lowest commissioned officer rank in the Sturmabteilung (SA), the paramilitary wing of the Nazi Party.

B. Horst Ludwig Georg Erich Wessel (9 October 1907 – 23 February 1930) was a Sturmführer ("Assault Leader"), the lowest commissioned officer rank in the Sturmabteilung (SA), the paramilitary wing of the Nazi Party.

C. Horst Ludwig Georg Erich Wessel (9 October 1907 – 23 February 1930) was a German pastor's son and street fighter who became a Sturmführer ("Assault Leader"), the lowest commissioned officer rank in the Sturmabteilung (SA), the paramilitary wing of the Nazi Party

Please answer A, B, or C with a brief statement in the Survey. Do not reply to other editors in the Survey. That's what the Discussion section is for.

• Copying over from the discussion below to make it visible. Proposal by User:Asilvering. Copied here by Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:39, 4 December 2023 (UTC).

  D. Horst Ludwig Georg Erich Wessel (9 October 1907 – 23 February 1930) was a member of the Sturmabteilung (SA), the paramilitary wing of the Nazi Party, who became a major propaganda symbol in Nazi Germany following his murder in 1930 by two members of the Communist Party of Germany (KPD).

Survey

• D, with apologies to Robert McClenon. These all suffer the same problem: none of them actually mention what he's notable for. I've left an alternative solution in the discussion area below. -- asilvering (talk) 17:37, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
• D' (D prime) See below. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:52, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

• F (see below) okay with re-write of "the procurer scene". Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:28, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

• D' (D-prime), identified below, with reasons in Discussion . I've suggested Option F as a compromise below. WillowCity^(talk) 18:25, 23 November 2023 (UTC) Pinged for this RfC by FRS
• D, but B and C are acceptable. Definitely not Option A and thus also not option E (AKA D-prime) which contain novel information and two references that damage what was a clean LEADCITE lead. They also contain information that he was not notable for, and contain the unhelpful "according to some sources..." which should be discussed in the main, not the lead. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:30, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
• C, proposed option F in Discussion is also perfectly acceptable but I feel it reads somewhat more difficult where C is more straightforward. C holds an impartial middle ground when put next to A or B. In my opinion, both of the latter are too skewed to one side of the coin. Proposed lede C does not put unnecessary emphasis on either subject's life as a street fighter/pimp, nor does it glorify or downplay his Nazi career for which he was/is known. It's to the point and concise Vydrakk (talk) 20:18, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
• D, or something to that effect - Wessel is only ever remembered as a focus for Nazi propaganda. In fact I'm not entirely convinced that Wikipedia should treat this topic as a biography of an individual at all. The 'notable' aspect of all this wasn't Wessel's life, or even his death - it was the myth created around his life and death subsequently. Treating it as a 'biography' risks giving undue credibility to the mythmaking, even if done with the best intentions. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:32, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
• D, good job by Asilvering putting this back on track, and note that also AndyTheGrump makes a good point. As for the gangster/pimp material, I don't see it established that it is either sufficiently central to the topic or sufficiently well evidenced to occupy a central part in the main body of the article (in fact, the term "gangster" occurs nowhere else on the page); in consequence, I don't see it as having a prominent place in the lead either. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:17, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• D, per Andy and FPaS. In so far as an answer is also asked about the 'pimping' accusation, IMO based on discussions above, it should only be included to the extent that context can be given (that both sides sought to propagandise, therefore this may be a slur by those who sought to discredit him posthumously). This probably means low down the lead, or solely in the body. Whether true or not, the ++ and -- 'myths' about him are part of the narrative of the posthumous propagandising, even if not actually of the life. Pincrete (talk) 10:20, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
• D, Per all the discussion leading up to this RFC, as it removes the weird undue importance given to pimping and mentions his use as a propaganda symbol. Clone commando sev (talk) 08:07, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

• Er, none of the above? He isn't notable for any of those things. What makes him notable is his murder and subsequent use in propaganda. The first sentence should be something like: "Horst Ludwig Georg Erich Wessel (9 October 1907 – 23 February 1930) was a member of the Sturmabteilung (SA), the paramilitary wing of the Nazi Party, who became a major propaganda symbol in Nazi Germany following his murder in 1930 by two members of the Communist Party of Germany (KPD)." -- asilvering (talk) 17:34, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

• I have no objection to Asilvering's suggested first sentence above. The second sentence should then mention his history:

D'. (D prime) Horst Ludwig Georg Erich Wessel (9 October 1907 – 23 February 1930) was a member of the Sturmabteilung (SA), the paramilitary wing of the Nazi Party, who became a major propaganda symbol in Nazi Germany following his murder in 1930 by two members of the Communist Party of Germany (KPD). Wessel was a street gangster and, according to some sources, a procurer of prostitutes[2][3] who became a Sturmführer ("Assault Leader"), the lowest commissioned officer rank in the SA. He was turned into a Nazi martyr by Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels.

Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:51, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

• Placing this claim in the first sentence of the lead (Option A) seems unduly prominent, given that it’s in no way the main source of the subject’s notability. My background is social history, so I find this aspect interesting (particularly given that issues of discipline and sexual morality contributed to the rift between the SS and the SA that culminated in the Night of the Long Knives, although I know mention of this in the article itself would be both SYNTH and beyond the scope). That said, I do think the “procurer” element bears noting elsewhere in the lead, since his death was bound up with his relationship with Jänicke. But I wouldn’t put it in the first sentence. (Edited to clarify) WillowCity^(talk) 18:27, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
• Comment - I have no problem with option D per Asilvering, but the sandwiching in of D-prime and the confusing labelling of it is out of order as it is a restatement of the cause of the content dispute, but with additional text added in about being a propaganda symbol. The RfC is specifically trying to resolve the edit warring over the "gangster and according to some sources, a procurer of prostitutes" text. As such the options are designed to resolve that sentence only. Beyond My Ken chose not to participate in the dispute resolution [1], but I expressed there my concern that an RfC should not result in a frozen lead. I am perfectly happy with:

D. Horst Ludwig Georg Erich Wessel (9 October 1907 – 23 February 1930) was a member of the Sturmabteilung (SA), the paramilitary wing of the Nazi Party, who became a major propaganda symbol in Nazi Germany following his murder in 1930 by two members of the Communist Party of Germany (KPD).

and if we want it as an option D, I see nothing wrong with it, might even !vote for it. If we stuck to the three options, I would see no problem with adding in about being the propaganda symbol afterwards. But D-prime is rebadged option A and does not focus on what he was actually known for. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:16, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

• I agree that D' is simply kicking the content dispute to the second sentence, and I do not think D' is an acceptable lead. -- asilvering (talk) 00:36, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

  The content is referenced and relevant. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:43, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

  Would any of the opposed editors be so kind as to clarify the basis for their position on the content dispute more broadly, for the uninitiated? I was brought in here by FRS, and I've reviewed the talk page and read the article in full, but I'm really not clear on the argument against including this claim (with attribution, and bearing in mind that MOS:WEASEL doesn't apply to lead sections). Is it just the fact that it was promoted by the KPD? From reading the article and a few cited sources, it's clear that Wessel navigated the underworld of 1920s Berlin. If this was a BLP, exclusion would make more sense to me, but I'm just having a hard time understanding the opposition here. WillowCity^(talk) 01:05, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

  I'd kinda like to know that too, since it seems to me that - without impugning anyone's motivation whatsoever - it appeared to me that some editors who objected were simply being overly fastidious about sullying the reputation of Wessel.

  People who joined the various street-fighting organizations, such as the SA, the Red Front-Fighters (RFB, Communist) or the Reichsbanner (Social Democrats), were very often from the very lowest social classes, so it would not be surprising that many of them were petty thieves or pimps. Because of the spotlight that Goebbels threw on Wessel, historians have researched his life more than the vast majority of Weimar street fighters, so it seems odd to ignore that information, when it specifically has relevance to Wessel's murder. Indeed, some historians see the death as being the result of a personal conflict over a prostitute, with the political context being secondary. I don't think we know enough to make that determination, but we certainly know that Wessel was what he was, and we should say so, especially since it throws an ironic light on his transformation into a Nazi martyr. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:51, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

  These are my thoughts exactly. As I noted above, following the Nazi ascent to power, the leadership tried to straighten-up (pun partially intended) its image and distance itself from the thuggish SA rank-and-file that helped fuel their ascent. So these claims about Wessel are unsurprising, given what we know about the SA.

  I know we don't write our articles to be clickbait, but as an uninvolved Wikipedian, I was much more interested to continue reading the article after I saw that claim in the lead. And while I'm assuming good faith, I'm wondering if there's a principled, policy-based explanation that doesn't involve shielding the reputation of a Nazi street-brawler/Goebbels golden-boy. WillowCity^(talk) 04:03, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

  I'm honestly shocked to hear objection to option A cast as "shielding the reputation of a Nazi street-brawler/Goebbels golden-boy". Are you suggesting that it is worse to be a street fighter and a procurer than it is to be a nazi propaganda icon, and that placing that information somewhere other than the lead sentence is somehow rehabilitative? I object to options A-C, especially option A, precisely because they are doing a rhetorical sleight-of-hand that minimizes the fact that he was a nazi. -- asilvering (talk) 06:24, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

  No, that is a significant misreading of what I've written. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:42, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

  Since it's a direct quote of WillowCity, and not you, I'm not sure why you think this could be a reading of you at all, mis- or otherwise. -- asilvering (talk) 00:30, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

  (just for the record, my poor wording wasn't an attempt to suggest that Wessel has any positive reputation to speak of. I think I understand your position better now, I've tried to give a fair summary of both views in the table below) WillowCity^(talk) 00:55, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

  WillowCity, in response to your question, my first involvement here was in this section: Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#First statements by editors (Horst Wessel). I quote: Uninvolved editor, but I have been watching this page on and off for a while and have read talk discussion and sources, particularly the ones recently added to the lead. Although an RfC may be called for, I am not certain it will achieve the best outcome here. There has been edit warring over a sentence in the lead, but I believe there is room for a suitable compromise. My belief is that those wanting removal of the sentence have rightly identified that the information about Wessel being a pimp is neither certain nor particularly due, and the addition of citations to suport it there have damaged a clean lead in a good article; its inclusion in the lead does not summarise main text, so it is novel information. Siemens (2013) does discuss this aspect, and shows that although the allegations that he was a pimp were perhaps made as cover, they are also plausible. But he was not particularly known for being a pimp/procurer, and so it is undue in the lead. This information should be in the main text, suitably summarising Siemens. It should not be excised altogether. Other treatments of him do not stress this aspect, but any suitably detailed discussion of his life and death would surely mention it. As regards the gangster allegation, the wording there might be tweaked (I am not sure 'gangster' is quite right), but it is a summary of the main text and in line with treatment by, e.g., Britannica. My concern with an RfC on the lead is this: It might lead to a frozen lead, either with novel information not supported by main text, or with that information excised but not transferred to main text, where it should be. There might be a temptation then to brook no changes to that lead, which would prevent movement towards something more nuanced. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:23, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

  I am also previously uninvolved (I am here because of a notice given to WP:GERMANY), and again agree with Sirfurboy. -- asilvering (talk) 15:34, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: Okay, I now have a better understanding of the merits of both sides, and I've compiled a table that I think summarizes the arguments (but please correct me if I'm wrong), which I think may help the closer if no agreement can be reached (EDITED to reflect/clarify positions):

Include	Exclude
The sentence underscores the dishonesty of Nazi propaganda about Wessel, and the irony of "martyring" such a figure	The sentence distracts or detracts from the things that make Wessel truly vile (namely, his Nazism)
We should not shy away from unflattering portrayals of this individual	See above; gangsterism and pimping are far less objectionable than being an SA officer
Several sources (particularly Siemens) indicate that Wessel's death was as much personal as political, and that it implicated his status as a possible procurer	There is certainly no historical consensus that Wessel was a procurer, and, in any event, the claim is not particularly notable in relation to this historical character
See above; Siemens notes that the claim is plausible	Primary sources dealing directly with this claim, which may have originated as KPD propaganda, are lacking
Material that is adequately cited in the body need not be cited in the lead, and MOS:LEADCITE allows us to dispense with inline citations based on editorial consensus	The sentence requires inline citation, which would be stylistically undesirable in an otherwise "clean" lead
The claim is mentioned in the body, as MOS:LEAD requires	The lack of discussion and analysis of this claim in the body makes it inappropriate to include it the lead, which should concisely summarize the article’s main points

I think the best solution would be to find some sort of compromise that can cover off the issue without requiring inline citation. So, without changing my vote yet, I'll propose Option F (since D' has been referred to as Option E):

Horst Ludwig Georg Erich Wessel (9 October 1907 – 23 February 1930) was a member of the Sturmabteilung (SA), the paramilitary wing of the Nazi Party, who became a major propaganda symbol in Nazi Germany following his murder in 1930 by two members of the Communist Party of Germany (KPD). Wessel, who became a Sturmführer ("Assault Leader", the lowest commissioned officer rank in the SA), was involved in street crime in Weimar-era Berlin, and quarrels within the procurer scene may have contributed to his killing. He was turned into a Nazi martyr by Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels.

This has the advantage of borrowing directly from the Randall source; it does not directly allege that Wessel was a procurer; it avoids the word "gangster" which is somewhat ambiguous; and I think it may be general enough that inline citation can be avoided. Tweaks welcome, of course. WillowCity^(talk) 17:13, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm generally OK with this, but suggest a rephrasing of "the procurer scene", which isn't very encyclopedic and makes it sound like some kind of hip subculture. How about "quarrels between procurers of prostitutes may have contributed..."? Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:27, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't think this table is a fair summary of the arguments for and against any particular wording of the lead. What the "against" are in this table is "counters to the arguments made by the 'for' side", which is not at all the same as "arguments against including particular information in the lead". For example, gangsterism and pimping are far less objectionable than being an SA officer is a fair read of what I wrote in response to your comment, but I wrote that because you had said I'm wondering if there's a principled, policy-based explanation that doesn't involve shielding the reputation of a Nazi street-brawler/Goebbels golden-boy; I simply do not see how not-including this information would shield this Goebbels golden-boy's reputation. But the argument for not including this information is very simple, and completely grounded in policy: the point of a lead is to note what is notable about the article subject and to summarize the body of the article. -- asilvering (talk) 01:09, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

I mean, it may not be the argument for exclusion, but it’s still an argument against inclusion (albeit a counter-argument to the suggestion of "whitewashing"). And my intention with the table is to distill the various arguments (by you and others) in what I see as the core dispute: including the “procurer” claim in the lead. The notability argument is already covered off, but I’ve added the “lead follows body” critique and what I imagine would be the main counterpoint. And I’ve retitled the headings to be more neutral (since “for” and “against” may be reductive/misleading) WillowCity^(talk) 15:26, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Regarding using cites in the lead, I think the style argument (against cites in the lead vs. a "clean lead") is extremely weak. LEADCITE doesn't disallow cites in the lead, it simply allows them not to be used if the information used and cited in the body, an entirely different thing. A significant percentage of leads on Wikipedia include cites, and LEADCITE says "The presence of citations in the introduction is neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article." If, however, one considers the clean lead argument to be strong, the answer is simple: include the material, with citations, in the body of the article, and then remove the citations from the lead, leaving the significant material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beyond My Ken (talk • contribs) 19:36, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

• Comment - Time to close? - This RfC has been open well over a month now. The result appears clear and has already been implemented. All the same, I am involved so could someone uninvolved close it please? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:56, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

  I pinged User:Future Perfect at Sunrise, who made an edit identified as implementing the RFC result. Will give them a day or so to respond (has been inactive a few days). DMacks (talk) 10:12, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

  Robert McClenon as per my comment on 26 January, can we close this? Thanks. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.