Talk:History of the Jews in Alsace

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Fake for Harlem Désir in section #History of Jews in Alsace[edit]

French genealogists † Joseph Valynseele and Denis Grando have studied and presented the list of ancestors of this French socialist deputy, in their book À la découverte de leurs racines (second volume, chapter “Harlem Désir”, pages 70-71 & 195), éditions de L'Intermédiaire des chercheurs et curieux, Paris, octobre 1994, 213 p.-20 p., (ISBN 2-908-003-03-1). And there is no clue of any Alsatian-Jewish origin through Harlem Désir's mother, † Nicole Duméry (who had several origins in some different parts of France, but with no jewish part). Harlem Désir's father had “black” origins in Martinique island. But the “Alsatian-Jewish origins” are a big fake. Hégésippe | ±Θ± 03:46, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In a different way, it has to be known that, for Jean-Louis Debré and his father Michel Debré, the Alsatian-Jewish origins are only a part of their origins. The only Jew was Michel's father, professor Robert Debré (1882-1978), whose Jewish origins were as following:
  • rabbi Simon Debré (1854-1939), born in Westhoffen, married and dead in Paris,
    • Jacques Debré (1800-1884), trader, born in Traenheim,
      • Anselme Debré (1765-1821), born in Ischehausen (Palatinate), married and dead in Westhoffen,
      • Barbe Schwartz (1766-1844), born in Traenheim, dead in Westhoffen,
    • Blandine Cahn (1817-1885), born, married and dead in Westhoffen,
      • rabbi Marx Cahn (1778-1872), born in Saverne, married in Bischheim and dead in Westhoffen,
      • Dorothée Wurmser ((1786-1859), born in Mutzig, married in Bischheim and dead in Westhoffen,
  • Marianne Trenel (1860-1949), born, married and dead in Paris,
    • rabbi Isaac Trenel (1822-1890), born in Metz, married and dead in Paris,
      • Jacob Trenel (1775-1840), born and dead in Metz,
      • Fanny Dennery (1778-1850), born in Metz, dead in Paris,
    • Suzanne Dennery (1825-1892), born, married and dead in Paris,
      • Israël Dennery (no details),
      • Minette Verté (no details).
Professor Robert Debré has 8 great-grandparents, all known as Jewish persons, including 1 born in Palatinate, 3 in Alsace, 2 in Lorraine and 2 of unknown origins (maybe one in Lorraine). Michel's mother (Robert's wife), Jeanne Debat-Ponsan, and Jean-Louis' mother (Michel's wife), Anne-Marie Lemaresquier, had no Jewish origins. As I have said above, the Alsatian-Jewish origins are only a part of their origins: 3/16 for Michel, 3/32 for Jean-Louis and, for both father and son, not through their mothers...
You have to know that our choice, on French Wikipedia, is to delete those lists of “Alsatian-Jewish origins”, with no source... and no real sense, except for some kind of fanatic people. Hégésippe | ±Θ± 04:45, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the article has a number of problems, starting with the very first sentence, which claims, without sources, that the Jewish community in Alsace dates from the time of Herod. The article was created, and has been largely maintained, by a serial sockpuppeteer who is familiar on the French Wikipedia as Albion, among other names. Deor (talk) 05:04, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is something to be said for proposing deletion of the article, given the inherent problems of such a thing and the unreliability of the main editor. JohnInDC (talk) 12:10, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The topic seems encyclopedic enough, and there are sources out there; it's just that we need someone who's not "Alex Levy" to improve the article. I'd be in favor of completely deleting the section "People with Jewish-Alsatian Origins" as an unsourced list with no discernible purpose, though. Deor (talk) 17:05, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone ahead and removed the list, as well as the claim of antiquity. (The French WP article says that the Jewish community in Alsace dates back only one thousand years, and that statement is borne out (sort of—it's admitted to be educated guesswork) by the sources cited therein. Deor (talk) 02:11, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think this was an appropriate edit, given the unsourced nature of the claims and the general disregard exhibited by the principal contributor (and his many socks) toward the principles that govern content in Wikipedia. JohnInDC (talk) 02:58, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reworking of the article[edit]

I am - slowly, slowly - reworking the article. This includes putting up a 100% verifiable list of notable Jews born in Alsace, and in Alsace only. I surmise that Thomas Bloch and Huguette Dreyfus are Jews as well, but since it is not sourceable (yet), i keep them out for now. --RCS (talk) 11:13, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Move discussion in progress[edit]

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:History of the Jews in Abkhazia which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:03, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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