Talk:History of the Jews in Afghanistan

Proposal

Propose to rename article to Jew in Afghanistan? Since there's only one? --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 10:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

• Very funny! But no cigar! It's all about the history of the rest of them as well... IZAK 11:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

This article is very sloppy. The claim that Pashtuns effectively consider themselves to be descended from Jews is new to me, and I've read very widely on Afghan ethnic groups. As for the origin of the name, 'Kabul', doubt it very much. See, for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabul. The population figures don't really add up either. Apparently most of the 5,000 jews in Afghanistan emigrated to Israel from 1951, yet the current population of Jews in Israel of Afghan descent is about 10,000. That's a very low population rate!

Perhaps it's no coincidence that one of the sources - the Virtual Jewish History - itself is poorly sourced.

Lol, agreed. --94.193.135.142 (talk) 19:31, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Poorly Sourced

This article could use some more work, as in in-line refs, do you not agree?--Jhelyam (talk) 01:38, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Most of the facts are based off of conjecture or legend, with no basis in archaeological, anthropological or linguistic fact. The Jewish presence in Afghanistan was never demographically significant, being at most an urban trading community in cities like Herat or Kabul (given its location on the Silk Road). Many Jews lived in Central Asia as part of the "Bukharan community" and they congregated around major cities along the Silk Road trade route, including Samarqand, Tashkent and (yes) Kabul. Other than that, Afghanistan was not significantly Jewish in the way than say, many of the Arab lands. I don't say that with any anti-semitic intent or malice (I may be a Pashtun from Pakistan but I have rather independent views on Israel/Palestine (support neither) and have many Jewish friends). But yes, Jews were no more a viable demographic presence in Afghanistan than were other trading communities such as the Prakrit-speakers from the subcontinent or the Chinese. As for "Afghana" being a descendent of Jewish kings, this goes back to a legend concocted after the Pashtuns embraced Islam. It's a matter of dispute, but many etymologies place the root of the word "Afghan" at Sanskrit word "Asvaka" referring to "horse" or "horses". It makes a lot of sense, given the history Afghanistan has as a center of trade in horses. The Pashtuns themselves are an Iranian-speaking people segmented into various tribes that all embraced Islam and adjusted their genealogies in relation to their new faith. They are neither Jewish nor Arab. I'm not sure about the root of "Kabul" but I know it doesn't lie in "Cain and Abel". Please re-edit this article to conform to what is actually known about the urban presence of Jewish trading communities in Afghanistan, rather than spout conjectures. Afghan Historian (talk) 19:55, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Inaccurate Information

The link between the Pashtun people has been proven by DNA testing and is documented in the article about the Pashtun. There remain those who have a difficult time accepting the DNA testing and the link between modern "Arab" people and Jews. This article regarding the Pashtun people needs revision to bring it up to date.--67.0.119.161 (talk) 18:51, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Problems with newly-added paragraph starting "Approximately 30% to 40% of Jewish men..."

A new paragraph has been added starting "Approximately 30% to 40% of Jewish men..." The paragraph has the following problems:

1. It cites a "Note 1" but the note doesn't actually point to any sources.
2. It engages in synthesis or original research in general, which is not allowed. It draws unsourced conclusions about the genetics of Jewish people by juxtaposing an unsourced sentence about Jewish genetics with a general discussion of genetic groups, and the article cited does not discuss genetics of Jewish groups.
3. It uses primary sources such as the Rig Veda and Herodotus inappropriately. Scholarly secondary sources need to be cited.

Please correct these issues, or remove the content. Thanks.... Zad68 20:17, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

The reference tags for the notes have been added. They now point properly. Also I have added proper citations for the other statements. Please check and respond. Thanks.. 106.51.90.53 (talk) 20:33, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! I will indeed take a close look as soon as I can. Appreciate it... Zad68 20:35, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

On first look, this whole part of the paragraph:

In contrast, the vast majority of the Pashtuns show the r1a1a as the common paternal line of descent. R1a1a is supposed to have descended from either South Asia or Eastern Europe with the former being much more probable. Neither is the Eastern Iranian language of the Pashtuns taken into account when examining the claims of Hebrew ancestry. It could be concluded that these claims appear to have emerged amongst the Pashtuns following the Islamic conquest of Afghanistan, it is conceivable that many tribes have created elaborate ancestral lineages to link themselves to prominent peoples mentioned in the Qur'an such as Jews, Greeks (see Alexander in the Qur'an), and Arabs all of whom have come to the region, but appear to have contributed to various minority genetic strains in the population rather than drastically altering the demographics of Afghanistan. Medieval accounts of the Israelite origin of the Pashtuns are contradicted by ancient sources, which from the Vedas[15] and Herodotus[16] (c. 450 BCE) onward refer to Paktia (the Pashtun), the "Aparitai" (Afridis) as well as other Pashtun sub-tribes and also by the Iranian language linguistic affiliations of the Pashto language. On the other hand, Qais Abdur Rashid, the legendary ancestor of all pushtun tribes, is believed to be thirty-seventh in descent from King Saul or Malik Talut. Resultantly Qais Abdur Rashid descends from Benjamin tribe of Israelites.

is still unsourced, or insufficiently sourced. The entire point the paragraph is trying to make, that there is not a strong genetic link between Pashtuns and Hebrews, is unsourced, and that really needs to be sourced. Can you please provide a source for that? Zad68 20:37, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Sources must specifically discuss the subject of the article. See WP:NOR. I've reverted. Dougweller (talk) 21:50, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

And again, this time it was added by a different IP. This should be taken to WP:NORN if they think it isn't original research. Dougweller (talk) 09:19, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Correct to revert. Zad68 12:32, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Problems throughout the article

This article is full of mostly unsourced POV, and elsewhere attempts to rely on mass media pieces for historical evidence.

What was the nonsense in the opening line about "3,000 years" doing there when there is no record before the 7th century, for example? There were also passages presenting a feasible version of the Ten Lost Tribes myth, which seems to be a recurrent pattern in a number of articles.--Ubikwit (talk) 18:41, 25 November 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

Genetics, etc.

Although there used to be a problem related to genetics in refuting specious Ten Lost Tribes myths, since that material has been removed, I suppose the genetics material is not necessary, for the time being, at any rate.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 11:47, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

"It was Afghanistan to which Jews turned to when escaping religious persecution in Iran and central Asia." Can anyone pls tell me in which year Iran or a central Asian country persecuted the Jews, so they had to flee to Afghanistan? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.6.218.88 (talk) 23:20, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

The names Naftal and Zahir are of hebrew origin and were used by moderate jews in Samarkand

It is well documented that there had been a huge jewish community in the area of Samarkand in the late 1890s with male first names like Naftal, Ashur, Zahir Most of them spread to near areas like Kabul or, In order to assimilate to the muslim population names were erased or paired with typical arabic names like Muhammad, Azad or Abdullah. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.247.242.209 (talk) 14:28, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Sources for Improvement

Sources for My Article:

Sara Koplik. "The Demise of Afghanistan's Jewish Community and the Soviet Refugee Crisis (1932-1936)." Iranian Studies 36, no. 3 (2003): 353-79. http://www.jstor.org/stable/4311548.

Fischel, Walter J. "The Rediscovery of the Medieval Jewish Community at Fīrūzkūh in Central Afghanistān." Journal of the American Oriental Society 85, no. 2 (1965): 148-53. http://www.jstor.org/stable/597986.

Brauer, Erich. "The Jews of Afghanistan: An Anthropological Report." Jewish Social Studies 4, no. 2 (1942): 121-38. http://www.jstor.org/stable/4464446.

Gnoli, Gherardo. "Jewish Inscriptions in Afghanistan." East and West 13, no. 4 (1962): 311-12. http://www.jstor.org/stable/29754617 Jadenmb (talk) 19:21, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:History of the Jews in Abkhazia which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:03, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Orphaned references in History of the Jews in Afghanistan

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of History of the Jews in Afghanistan's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "ReferenceA":

• From Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries: "Trials of Jews in Afghanistan Bared in Persia | Jewish Telegraphic Agency". Jta.org. 11 July 1934. Retrieved 2 May 2016.
• From Asia: National Geographic Atlas of the World (7th ed.). Washington, D.C.: National Geographic. 1999. ISBN 978-0-7922-7528-2. "Europe" (pp. 68–69); "Asia" (pp. 90–91): "A commonly accepted division between Asia and Europe is formed by the Ural Mountains, Ural River, Caspian Sea, Caucasus Mountains, and the Black Sea with its outlets, the Bosporus and Dardanelles."
• From The Guardian: Audit Bureau of Circulations Ltd– abc.org.uk

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 08:15, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Other referencing problems

While going through part of the article, I noticed that impeccable references (such as Koplik-2003) are being used to support assertions which they absolutely do not verify. Whether this is because the citations were there first and later editors came in and stuffed unsourced assertions in front of them or not, I couldn't say, as I didn't delve into the history. But I'd just issue a warning that at least portions of this article appear to be unsourced original research, even when there appear to be nearby citations from very reliable sources right there next to it. So watch for that, and it may be that portions of this article need to be removed. If you see anything that you believe is unsourced, or poorly sourced, even if there are citations right there, don't hesitate to remove the content. If you remove references as well because they don't support any preceding content (like I just did, twice) then just make sure to add something in the edit summary about it, because it may get auto-tagged "references removed" by the software if you don't say anything about the edit. Don't hesitate to remove references either, even good ones, if they don't support anything in the preceding text, just be a bit more careful about that. Thanks, and please ping me if you find more examples of this. Mathglot (talk) 07:59, 6 October 2022 (UTC)