Talk:History of Macedonia (ancient kingdom)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:History of Macedonia (ancient kingdom)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Iazyges (talk · contribs) 02:25, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

• Will start soon. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 02:25, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

@Iazyges: hello. Is this review still active? --Pericles of Athens^Talk 16:37, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

@Iazyges: hi again. We are now moving into July here. Should I request that someone else review the article? --Pericles of Athens^Talk 20:16, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

@PericlesofAthens: Hey, I'm really sorry about not getting to this; I've been super inactive in general, but should be coming back now. I'll try to get this done today, if possible. -- Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 01:41, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Criteria

GA Criteria
GA Criteria: 1 1.a Y (In spite of Copy-editing notice on talk page, the article is quite well put together) 1.b Y 2 2.a Y 2.b Y 2.c Y 2.d Y 3 3.a Y 3.b Y 4 4.a Y 5 5.a Y 6 6.a Y 6.b Y

• No Copyvio Y
• No DAB links Y
• No Dead links N "Hellenism in Macedonia" link appears to be dead.

Prose Suggestions

Lede

• "founded in the mid-7th century BC during the period of Archaic Greece and lasting until the mid-2nd century BC." Should lasting be lasted? I think it's good enough either way, but it feels a bit odd to me.
• "During the age of Classical Greece, Perdiccas II of Macedon (r. 454–413 BC) became heavily involved in the Peloponnesian War (431–404 BC) between Classical Athens and Sparta," may wish to remove the "heavily", or change it to "directly," if its a case of indirect interference before entrance into the war.

Body

• "the latter believed to have had the mythical Heracles as one of his ancestors." Is "the latter" applying to Temenus of Argos here? Given the absence of a singular former, it seems a bit odd; may want to change it.
• " in which the Macedonian kingdom was largely autonomous yet was expected to provide troops and provisions for the Achaemenid army" you may want to change "yet" to "but".
• "In that same year, Sitalces, according to Thucydides, invaded Macedonia at the behest of Athens to aid them in subduing Chalcidice and punish Perdiccas II for violating the terms of their peace treaty." may want to make it "to punish Perdiccas" II..."
• "Perdiccas III had reached the age of majority and took the opportunity to kill his regent Ptolemy" What was the age of majority for them, at the time? If it's in the source you may wish to add it.
• @PericlesofAthens: Thats all my suggestions; and again, sorry for being so late. -- Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 01:59, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Reply

@Iazyges: hi Iazyges! No worries about the wait. It's summer; people should be busy!

• I removed that dead link that you mentioned in the external links section.
• It honestly should be "lasting" instead of lasted; it makes more sense grammatically (using the past progressive tense, since it was established at the beginning of the sentence, i.e. in the clause, that we were using past tense).
• I changed the word "heavily" to "directly" in that sentence about Perdiccas II. Good catch!
• I tweaked the sentence about Temenus of Argos being a descendant of Heracles, as the old tale asserted.
• Per your suggestion, I have edited the sentence about Macedonia being autonomous while providing military support to the Achaemenid Empire.
• I added an extra "to" in the sentence about Sitalces allying with Athens to defeat Perdiccas II.
• Well, in ancient times, unlike modern times where the law clearly states the age of majority, it was more of a private or communal agreement when a boy was to be considered a young man (usually involving a ceremony of some sort). Like today, the precise age varied from culture to culture, but when we're talking about royalty and princes ascending to the throne, it becomes a different matter. In this context, "age of majority" simply means the moment when the boy prince decides, preferably after careful counsel and consideration, that he is old enough and competent enough to take the throne and have the regent or steward retire from their role as temporary caretaker of the kingdom (or have them killed if necessary). This could happen at any age really, and in the case of Perdiccas III we obviously know the year in which he died, but not when he was born! As far as I know, we do not know his exact age when he had his regent killed in 365 BC. I hope that answers your question! Thanks for taking the time to review the article. --Pericles of Athens^Talk 03:19, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Non-reviewer comments

The following short cites don't work: Renault 2013, Eckstein, 2013, Gruen1986. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:33, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

@Finnusertop: hello! Thank you very much for pointing this out; I had no idea these sources were missing from the list. I have added them into the "sources" sub-section of the article. Conveniently they were already located in the article "Macedonia (ancient kingdom)" where much of the information in this article was originally found before I created the sibling/split article here. Something must have happened in the transfer process and these sources didn't make it to my list. I'll try to be more careful next time! Cheers. --Pericles of Athens^Talk 18:46, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

That's great, PericlesofAthens. I usually don't bother others with these fixes if they can be found in other articles with high confidence, but since this one is undergoing GA and you are obviously knowledgeable with the sources, I thought it was better to let you do it. Good luck with the GA process! – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:53, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

@PericlesofAthens: Renault 2013 missing. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:42, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

It was a typo that should have been "2001" instead of "2013" after Renault. I have fixed it. Thanks for pointing it out! --Pericles of Athens^Talk 18:14, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

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WP:SPA

User:DiNemea is a single purpose account set up to push a pro-Greek agenda in sites related to Macedonia. --Taivo (talk) 10:36, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

While this user has made other edits to Greek pages, this account is so new, yet the edit to this page was so extensive and skilled, that it is probably the work of a banned editor coming back under a new identity, a sockpuppet. --Taivo (talk) 11:30, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

And the piece d'resistance? User:DiNemea marked his/her POV-pushing edit against WP:CONSENSUS as a minor edit. Sure sign of an unethical editor trying to hide something under the radar. --Taivo (talk) 15:26, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

Greek State (Sources)

The kingdom of Macedonia was an ancient state — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.49.110.200 (talk) 08:24, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Your point is irrelevant. The first sentence of the lead in this and other related articles has been decided by consensus to not include the word "Greek" before the word "kingdom". All these sources have been cited before (you're not discovering something that has been hidden) and most are usually included in the articles. The articles themselves clearly delineate the relationship between ancient Macedonia and ancient Greece so there is nothing missing if you actually read the article. But the matter is more complex than you have indicated, so experienced editors, both on the Greek side of the fence and on the non-Greek side of the fence, have determined that the complexity of the matter is best handled in the text of the article and not by planting a Greek flag in a pointy edit in the very first sentence. Your edit violates WP:CONSENSUS. Indeed, the nature of these edits (by anonymous editors like you) is pure real-world politics because these articles lie undisturbed for months and then when something happens between Greece and Macedonia in the real world, within 24 hours there is a surge of attempts to place the Greek flag firmly in front of "kingdom" in these articles. So the edit is clearly just pointy editing and not intended to improve the article. --Taivo (talk) 09:43, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Reference --> — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.49.239.68 (talk) 10:26, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Locations where a WP:CONSENSUS was reached on leaving the word "Greek" out of the first sentence and the first sentence only include:

• Here, 2009/2010, where toward the end all the major involved editors, some of whom favored "Greek" and some of whom did not, agree that in the first sentence "Greek" was best left out because of the complexity of the issue.
• Here, 2009, which is prior to the preceding discussion, but in the middle of which I made the comment, "This sentence hasn't said "Greek" for a long time", so the original consensus was clearly before then and the discussion at this link was a subsequent one. But note again, that the original consensus was maintained (the end of the above link)
• This (2005) is the earliest mention I've found of the current "ancient kingdom" text. It seems to have been an edit in 2005 which has stayed stable until now (the sentence following "kingdom" was changed from the "Greek peninsula" reference to "periphery" shortly after the 2010 discussion cited above). There have been no subsequent changes to the sentence based on any consensus since. But, as I stated in my previous comment, the WP:POINTy nature of "Greek kingdom" is clear from the simple fact that it shows up within 24 hours of some real-world event surrounding the Macedonia naming dispute. --Taivo (talk) 14:10, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Ref — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.1.35.187 (talk) 20:29, 8 October 2018 (UTC) Ref — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.1.35.187 (talk) 20:44, 8 October 2018 (UTC) Ref

You clearly don't know what the term original research means and that it is forbidden in Wikipedia. ALL of your sources are OR and, thus, irrelevant. But they are irrelevant for this discussion which focuses exclusively on the first sentence and the first sentence only. The consensus is that we leave "Greek" out of the first sentence. It's a solid consensus and has held for nearly 10 years, with the support of both Greek-leaning and non-Greek-leaning editors. You're wasting your time both with unacceptable OR and with fighting against consensus without any arguments whatsoever. --Taivo (talk) 22:35, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

The failure of "Greek" and "Hellenic" in the first sentence

There are several reasons why neither "Greek" nor "Hellenic" precedes "state" in the first sentence.

• The issue is a complex one, thus the simplistic attachment of "Greek" in the first sentence is not accurate from a technical sense. Thus, in 2010, both Greek-leaning editors and non-Greek-leaning editors felt that the first sentence was no place for such simplification. The rest of the article then goes into great detail as to the precise relationship between Macedonia and the city-states of Greece. There is no ambiguity or inaccuracy when you actually read the whole article and don't stop on the 10th-word.
• The placement of "Greek" or "Hellenic" in the first sentence before "state" is a pointy edit to many editors because of its over-simplification of a complex issue and because it has been intended as a stick in Macedonia's eye, not as an honest attempt to convey accurate information. The first sentence of this article has remained stable in the parent article since they were written about a decade ago without the words "Greek" or "Hellenic" on any permanent basis. The only times that editors show up to plant the Greek flag there is within 24 hours of some real-world event in the Macedonia naming dispute. Then you can set your watch by the arrival of anonymous IPs and single-purpose accounts who might have been summoned by illegal canvassing or might be sock puppets of previously banned users. That is the very essence of pointy editing--to make a political statement, not to improve the encyclopedia.
• The so-called "proof" that these anonymous IPs and single-purpose accounts offer isn't valid evidence in Wikipedia's scheme of things. Reliable sources are not primary sources. Using primary sources (Strabo, Arrian, et al.) is considered to be inappropriate original research. No one is doubting that there are reliable sources (not Strabo et al., but modern academic sources) that state that Macedonia was Greek (and many are cited in the article), but there are also reliable sources that state that Macedonia wasn't purely Greek (and many are cited in the article). That's why calling ancient Macedonia "Greek" in the first sentence is an over-simplification and inappropriate as the initial characterization of the nature of the kingdom. It doesn't really matter that Strabo or Arrian or Demosthenes or Harry of Thebes said so. What matters are reliable secondary, academic sources. And they point to the complexity of the issue.
• Per WP:BRD, an editor should be bold to edit. But then if that edit is reverted, then it is required that the discussion move to the Talk Page and be discussed. If, and only if, a new consensus is built should the edit then be actually placed in the article. Until then, the article text should not be touched after the new edit was reverted. I repeat, per WP:BRD, the new material should never be placed back in the article until a new consensus is reached on the Talk Page. Such a consensus has not been reached. Far from it.

--Taivo (talk) 03:25, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

The wording 'subduing Greece'

Hi, I would like to start a discussion about the wording 'subduing Greece'. It not a matter of nationalism. It is rather a depiction of truth. The term is not true since Greece ( the Greek city states and Greek kingdoms) were never totally subdued by the Greek Northern Kingdom of Macedonia. Take for example Sparta. Despite the fact it lacked the power and glory of the past was never conquered by any general of Alexander the Great or himself. The same counts for other Greek city states of the same era. The wording does not reflect reality, it rather mislead to a point of propaganda. In addition, in the case you still can't accept reality, you have to come naider that in order to subdue someone or something you must be allien to it. So, from the point that Macedons were an ancient Greek tribe they could not subdue their compatriots. They could only win a civil war with them. I am sorry but this page lacks in truth and it is biased. If a person that knows nothing of Balkan or ancient history would read this page through would not get anything else than that Macedons are not Greeks.. so pity that propaganda is promoted. Tidewings (talk) 12:53, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

If we said "most of Greece" that would still be accurate, though, because in addition to enlarging the territory of the Kingdom of Macedon itself, Philip II effectively controlled most of Greece minus Sparta & Laconia in the Peloponnese by forcing the Greek city-states to join the League of Corinth, which he led as the nominally elected strategos. In either case, the ancient Macedonians probably considered themselves to be Greek enough (the Macedonian kings certainly viewed themselves as such with their alleged, legendary Argive lineage accepted by the Hellanodikai authorities of the Ancient Olympic Games). That still doesn't change the fact that certain Greeks like the Athenian Demosthenes viewed them as barbarians outside of the Classical Greek cultural world of the poleis. Of course none of this was relevant by the end of the Hellenistic period and era of Roman Greece, when there was no distinction between Maceodonians & Greeks and they all spoke the universal Koine Greek anyway (the still little understood ancient Macedonian language becoming extinct). However, during the reign of Philip II the ethnic identity of the Macedonians was still ambiguous, flexible, and unique compared to Greeks of the south, even Greeks of neighboring Thessaly, which at least was considered solidly Greek. Therefore you are reading too much into the intentions of editors here, if you think this is somehow about that silly anachronistic debate regarding modern South Slavic peoples of the "Republic of Macedonia". That has nothing to do with it. Pericles of Athens^Talk 14:13, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

If Tidewings wants to change "subduing Greece" to "subduing most of Greece" I have no problem either way. The latter is technically more accurate. But if Tidewings is trying to change "subduing Greece" to "subduing the rest of Greece", then Pericles is right, the issue is problematic and ambiguous from the historical record alone and has nothing whatsoever to do with Tidewing's unwarranted charges of propaganda. --Taivo (talk) 16:53, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

hello again. I have read your replies. I agree in many and most of the comments by Pericles of Athens. However, was it just Sparta that wasn't conquered? What about Crete? Also, Pericles we must consider that Alexander considered himself to be Greek as you already mentioned, despite Dimosthenes and other Greeks view, and he proved his Greek origin when they denied him to participate in the Olympics. He proved his Greek origin and eventually he participated as a Greek.. that is well documented. In addition we must consider Alexander's mother roots. And Phillip the second also participated in Olympics as a Greeek in 356 BC. About the Ancient Macedonian language, you must consider the fact that in antiquity there did not exist one koine Elliniki language but rather four Greek dialects, one of which was the Macedonian, now extinct. The royal family of Macedons adopted the Attiki dialect to make formal the bonds with Athenians. Furthermore you make a distinction between Classical Greece and Macedonia, like the game "Total War", and you forget to consider the fact that Macedons were part of Classical Greece and participated in the Peloponessean War in the 5th -4th century BC. In fact they participated actively in it first with the Peloponessean Aliance and then in the siege of Amphipolis with athenians and the aid of Thracians. Anyway this is another story. Also, as you can see I did not mention the first sentence of the page that I see you all are very sensitive about the ancient Greek state thing. Anyway what I propose is remove the term 'subdue' and add 'has won a civil war with most of Greece'. About Taivo's reply, a person that reads through the whole page and has no clue of history (most of the people that visit this page are coming here to get some answers) will get the impression that Ancient Macedonia has some kind of connection with Greece due to reasons of neighboring and war ties, and that it had no ethnological connection with it. That is a major issue for the sake of truth, and logic, and finally can also be seen as propaganda promotion too.. I am not referring to the Northern Slavic neighbor's that migrated in the 600 AD in the region since they have created their own web History promoting pages. What I am saying is it acts as propaganda against the truth of the historical facts. On that basis in the future another third party could base the fact that Macedons did not speak and write Greek at all despite the obiquitous found evidence and traces from the Hellenistic period and before that. Who can not remember famous quotes by Alexander in the ancient Greek language? "If I was not Alexander, I would want to be Diogenis", "Ει μη Αλέξανδρος ήμην, Διογένης αν ήμην". Some facts no matter how obvious to the eye of a person that has studied them are, must be pointed out to the inexperienced eye of his contemporary audience. Tell me what do you get from the Icons of Christ's Birth, when you see the Holy Virgin Mary to be sitted?? To the eyes of the late Roman era and early East Rome this is evident, but what about you. You must probably do a Google search or literature research to answer me that, and of course you are welcome to do so and reply, after all here is an education page and not an imperialistic fight. And hence diplomacy should be used with extreme caution when history comes into the picture. This proves that things must be pointed out to the audience with no knowledge of the story behind it. Despite the fact that my effort was to point out in this page the obvious to the audience and readers, since most of the page viewers readers are not aware of Macedons ancient history because not everybody is Greek, studies history, or gets to go to Oxford for studies, there was an immediate effort to characterize me as Nationalist, a term that I do not accept. Thank you and I am waiting for your reply.Tidewings (talk) 20:31, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

To be honest, a lot of the nuance you describe here is covered pretty extensively in my article Macedonia (ancient kingdom) and at Ancient Macedonians. I don't think the article Philip II of Macedon is the place to be discussing all of this, unless of course we're talking specifically about how Philip II's contemporaries thought of him and how he thought of himself. His son Alexander the Great certainly thought of himself as descending from Achilles through his mother Olympias, one of the Aeacidae of Epirus. That doesn't say anything about Philip, though. Yet like his ancestor Alexander I of Macedon, Philip II would have thought of himself as a descendant of Heracles, via his legendary ancestor Temenus. Legendary genealogies aside, how do you condense all of that into the lead section in a sentence or less, without getting excessively wordy or veering off-topic? It's better just to explain this elsewhere in the body of the article. Pericles of Athens^Talk 20:47, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Pericles and I have been involved in these Macedonian articles for a very long time (often on opposite sides at the beginning) and he is precisely correct--the issue of the "Greekness" of the ancient Macedonians is complex and cannot be boiled down to a single word, or, as Pericles notes above, even a single sentence. The majority of long-term editors involved with articles where this issue is usually discussed have come to a very stable and seemingly satisfying consensus: that we do not label ancient Macedonia as "Greek" or "Hellenic" in the lead, but carefully describe the exact nature of their relationship in the body of the article. This way, there is no attempt to overemphasize either their "Greekness" at the expense of their "otherness" or their "otherness" at the expense of their "Greekness". And the truth is very simple: the relationship (linguistic, cultural, ethnic, political, etc.) between Greece and Macedonia changed over time from "other" (or at least "not quite") to "Greek". In an article such as this one, which covers a range of time from early to late, simplistically planting a Greek flag at the beginning is a falsehood being presented to the reader. Indeed, Macedonia wasn't "all Greek" until almost the Roman period, certainly not during the Philippine and Alexandrine eras. The trajectory was always from "other" to "Greek", there is no debate about that, but to blindly plant "Greek" in the beginning of an article that covers several hundred years of that trajectory is simply bad scholarship and false. That's why those of us who have been here for a time and are not single purpose accounts focused entirely on pushing a POV in one article work to preserve the status quo consensus--it is fact-based, neutrally-worded, and not misleading to our readers. --Taivo (talk) 21:13, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

What I am writing and I have documented above is that the wording "subdue Greece" must be changed and not the first sentence. Therefore, Taivo I take your supporting slast speech as never happened since it refers to the first sentence. Furthermore, Greece in antiquity streched From Magna grecia and Sicily, to Crete, And Thrace. Cretans were never involved into hostilities with Macedons. In fact they accepted immediately Macedons as their allies the moment Alexander risen to power. Why would they do that since Greeks of the main Greekland considered all non Greeks barbarians that should not be taken into consideration equally with Greeks? But this as you want to put it in another context should wait for another time. Spartans additionally were not conquered by Macedons. In addition, you make an effort Taivo to oversimplify the fact that Macedons did not last in time both ethnologically, linguistically, and culturally, when they did survive, something that again is not to be taken into consideration for the topic that I started. Your effort here is to change subject. The momentthe topic is to change the wording 'subdue Greece'. You also mention that you and Pericles have been involved for a long time in similar type of articles. So? What does that mean? Are you an expert all of a sudden?? I am not expert and I try to write the truth. I thought Wikipedia is not based on experts but is based on truth and has as aim to promote truth to the public view, isn't that the goal? The page with the wording specifically on Philip's article, misleads. suddenly all of ancient Greece, is Athens, Corinth, Thebes and Thessaly. Well that beats both me and the truth. But even if I take into consideration the provocative speaking that Macedonia transformed into the centuries, then I should also consider the same for Greece? So in that perception Macedonia is Greek today. Or if I turn it around, Macedonia was Greek back then. I am very dissaponted by this page and by the fact that you Taivo, despite the fact of your big experience consider your self as an expert when Wikipedia has made clear that it is not experts but rather the truth that must be written on its pages. I am still waiting for your propositions on the new wording. You can find my proposition above written.Tidewings (talk) 22:00, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Taivo you also make an effort to present me as single purpose account user. That is bad for your image man. You do not know me. And because of it you will find your self before surprises in the future. I must also remind you my account is knew. ther eis time for me to edit more things both here and elsewhere.Tidewings (talk) 22:06, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Is that a threat? And it has been clear from all your comments here that your focus isn't just on the "subduing Greece" line, but on proving (as if anyone was unclear about your purpose here) to push Macedonia as Greece POV. Otherwise, once Pericles and I agreed to "subdue most of Greece" you would have said, "Great, then we are agreed". You didn't. You kept pushing the same "misleading" line of thought that you were pushing during your edit war last month. Your comments aren't focused on "most of Greece" but on "Macedonia was part of Greece" (hence your comment about "civil war" in your earliest post). You're not fooling anyone with your false protest just now. And if you want to be taken seriously on Wikipedia, then you need to edit in other articles where you're not pushing a POV by editing against long-standing consensus. That's how you'll earn respect, not by simply arguing that you're right and the experienced editors are wrong. --Taivo (talk) 23:20, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

I am not threating anyone, and just the fact you bring it up shows you are losing your temper without areason. It is the truth that you do not know me hence you should be carefyl how you characterize me.And again you change subject. And no we are not agreed with subdued most of Greece since he did not. Most of Greece was not beaten in wars against Phillip since the largest part kept its previous status. And no he did not subdue the other states but rather won the wars against them. As I said already my account is new and because I see wikipedia lacks in many areas if I judge from this page I will contribute in other pages too after I finish here. Furthermore, who made you wikipedia boss to talk in the name of everyone else on how they think about me. Your expertise?? Wikipedia says in the rules, that wikepedia is not ran by experts. It is also clear to everyone that you are pushing a non Greek and bloored POV portfolio on this page, that lowers the page credibility and accuracy towards history and the readers of wikipedia. It is dissapointing the how facts are presented in this page. May I ask your nationality, since you so bluntly keep saying I am pushing a pro Greece nationalistic POV?? And I am still waiting for your propositions as far as it concerns changing the wording 'subdue Greece', a totally inaccurate, misleading and anti Greek POV promoting. Ancient Greece in classical times incorporated Southern Italy, Sicily, Crete, Aegean islands, Peloponesse, Macedona, Thrace Epirus, Thessaly, and Athens and more.Tidewings (talk) 00:27, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

You are the one who is complaining about "subdued Greece". Pericles and I proposed "subdued most of Greece". What is your suggestion? You talk a lot, but you have offered no alternative wording. --Taivo (talk) 01:52, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Actually, when I say "Greece" I just mean Hellas proper, mainland Greece, not even any of the Aegean Islands or Crete, or the exact boundaries of the modern-day Hellenic Republic. And it certainly does not mean the entire colonial Greek world in the Mediterranean basin and Black Sea region, obviously. Nobody is claiming that Philip II or even Alexander the Great conquered what is now Crimea in Russia/Ukraine, coastal Bulgaria, southern Italy, Sicily, Cyrene in Libya, Massalia in France, Emporion in Spain, etc. So saying "subduing Greece except Sparta" would actually be correct, since I wouldn't even include the Greek cities of Ionia and Anatolia in this category. Mainland Greece here means areas that were culturally and politically Greek in the southern Balkan peninsula. I'll change that to more accurately reflect what the sources say in regards to Sparta. Pericles of Athens^Talk 02:52, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Pericles what you mean, is not what it is, and certainly what the viewers will get, since the viewers are not in your head and thoughts. We are here to bring a consensus to the wording 'subdying Greece'. Classical Hellas was ancient Greece that incorporated without hesitation and doubt Sicily, Crete (not colonial), Aegean islands (not colonial), the city states of Southern Italy (still speaking Greek dialect there after 2500 years) and other places. In fact military power in many of those places exceed by far other main land of the modern day Greece since at that time the main land of Greece could be subject to debate as to what it was. The wording you use is incorrect. Taivo you talk a lot and out of context. the only thing you offered in this chain of talk is to describe why we must not include Hellas and Greece in this page, while I am here to bring a consensus about a certain wording. I am suggesting that since you do not have anything important, or towards the consensus to offer in this talk that I started, you must stay out of it until me and Pericles come to a consensus. After all you Taivo claim that you two both agree on your opinions. Really just out of curiosity what is your nationality?? I guess you come from FYRoM. Pericles, I have already proposed the Civil war between some of Greece. You say that you mean the mainland Greece when you say Greece, but even that is not at all Greece (as I explained above), not of our days, and not of ancient classical Greece, not even close, and certianly the readers cannot know what is in your head. In what context do you place the boundaries of Greece of Antiquity, of the Modern day Greece or of the Ancient times Greece, because depending on your context this page turns up to be not only misleading, like it is written, but totally false. Have you seen the title? 'History of Macedonia(Ancient Kingdom). We must speak only of the ancient Kingdom not of the whole history of Greece and Macedonia..? I thought Taivo that you claim to have expertise in wikipedia.. it seems that your only care is to keep the word Greece and Hellas out of this page and you don't care about the historical facts. You claim expertise and on the contrary you lack eye for the detail and capability in your acts of this page. This page talks about the ancient kingdom and you dare to lecture me above about how Macedonia transformed into the centuries?? What an hypocricy of you Taivo. Maybe I should downrate this page. Tidewings (talk) 07:07, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

You are clearly not reading anything that I have written, Tidewings, and your silliness in saying that I don't want the word "Greece" anywhere on the page is pretty astounding. Pericles is quite right, that the word "Greece" in the only sentence that you, yourself, have made the topic of this discussion, will be interpreted by the majority of Wikipedia readers as the southern end of the Balkan peninsula and no more. Most readers see "Greece" and interpret its extent to be more or less the modern boundaries, no matter what time period we're covering. There is one sentence at issue here. Pericles suggested, and I agreed with, a wording that you have rejected. The ball is in your court, what is your proposed wording for that sentence? This article is not about ancient Greece, so any mention of Greece is only relevant to Macedonia's interactions with the city-states south of it. What is your proposal? This is the second time that I have asked you specifically for one. --Taivo (talk) 10:20, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Actually the ball is in you court Taivo since you put it that way. The readers are not coming here to read something they already know, but to learn something they do not. From the moment this page has a title that refers to ancient kingdom the concept of this page is to enter text that referes to that era historical facts, and not to modern day Greece. But even in that case the page is even more untrustworthy since modern Greece incorporates Macedonia. In that case we should edit also the first sentence into correctness. I opened the conversation because it is misleading, and I proved already why it is false the wording referring to Greece, since in antiquity Greece stretched from Southern Italy to far more areas. Your initial proposition is rejected as it is the proposition of Subdue Greece except Sparta because it is a lie. I want to hear from you a truthfull proposition otherwise this page is clear that is an anti-Greek POV pushing and lies promoting. Please be my guest and give a proposition without the word Greece and subdue inside, since you are so sensitive with your anti-Greek passion. The fact still remains that you are incapable to view the detail when be objective for at least this page. I want a consensus and I will be open to modulate my initial proposition if we remove the word Greece. Still the fact is you are lack of objectivity towards historical facts and this page thruth. My suggestion is still open, that you should refrain to comment anymore and let me and Pericles come to a consensus from the moment you are biased and have nothing to offer or add in good faith to the topic I started. Please stay out of it because you are both embarrasing yourself and you do not offer anything too. Tidewings (talk) 11:53, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Pericles' last edit is perfectly acceptable to me. If you want to propose something else, then do so and justify it. As of right now, I'm satisfied with what Pericles has done in the article. He's actually come to these articles about ancient Macedonia and has done great work to improve them. He has earned my respect for him and his work even though we don't always agree. But we always reach a consensus and compromise if necessary. --Taivo (talk) 12:36, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Since a consensus must be met by all parties, and since I started this talk and since I already proved without any prejudice and any bias like yours that the wording is false and represents a POV-pushing thesis, what Pericles did is rejected. You either come into consensus with a new wording for the whole 'subdue of Greece' or this page is downrated and reported for inaccuracies, lies and propaganda promoted. I also must say you lack of credibility and objectivity Taivo on this matter. Therefore, stop commenting. Unless you two come to a consensus regarding my point of view this page is downrated as I said. I have already proposed Civil war between only Athens Thebes and Macedons (Phillip won Athens and Thebes), since we talk for ancient History of Macedonia (ancient kingdom), and in that era Macedons are a Greek tribe. It dosnt mater though for the specific wording this. In any case give me a wording without subdue and Greece inside to discuss on it or this page is a lie to history and propaganda promoting. I do not care if you bring here the Queen Elizabeth herself speaking as an expert as long as she continues to insist into historical lies and inconsistencies . Your claim over expertise or previous debate experience proves nothing and it is just your way to turn things around and out of context for your own POV pushing propaganda. you do not fool anyone by your expertise claims. If you continue this path I will have to assume more things about your intentions that I would rather not. Greece in antiquity incorporated Southern Italy, sicily, Crete, aegean islands, Peloponnese, Athens, Corinth, Thessaly, Epirus, Macedonia, Thrace and more. the wording and the one sided edition that Pericles did is not of consensus, and automatically subject of being reported. I am not like you Taivo, that you report immediately for pshing propaganda. Therefore, I am waiting for Pericles to propose formally here a wording acceptable by me too and after we reach consensus to change formally the wording. Otherwise this Page and you Taivo are a disgrace to wikipedia. It must a one of kind your type of edition.. to claim so loudly last month about consensus and then act one sided and change whatever you want. The least this page is up for reporting , not to mention you TaivoTidewings (talk) 15:54, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Tidewings, your comment is so full of error that it's hard to know where to begin.

• You need to learn the meaning of "civil war". A civil war happens when people who are citizens of a single country go to war with each other in order to change the government. If you knew anything whatsoever about the history of ancient Greece (whether you include Macedonia as part of "Greece" or not) you would know that all these city-states were independent countries. Therefore wars between them were not "civil wars", but just "wars". Saying that there was a "civil war" between Athens and Sparta or Athens and Thebes is like saying that there was a "civil war" between the United States and Canada in 1812 or a "civil war" between France and Germany in 1914 and 1940. It violates the meaning of "civil war". Remember that it was the "Peloponnesian War", not the "Peloponnesian Civil War".
• You are acting like donald trump, "If you don't fund the border wall I will shut down the government". In your case, "If you don't change the page the way I like it I'll report you." Wow. First, please state clearly, with an appropriate link, the Wikipedia policy which Pericles and I are violating by disagreeing with you. Demanding that we agree with you whether you are right or wrong simply proves that you are a classic single-purpose account only here to push your POV without regard for community processes. Second, where, precisely, do you plan to "report us"? Pericles and I have violated no Wikipedia policy in disagreeing with you and your demands so there is no place "to report us".
• Finally, I have asked you three or four times now to offer up the exact wording for the phrase "subdued most of Greece, except Sparta" that you think should be in the article. We cannot agree or disagree with you because you have no point to your tirades other than "I don't like it". You have offered not a single, solitary alternative wording here on the Talk Page. There's nothing to really discuss with you because you have offered no alternatives other than the standard extreme Greek nationalist position "FYROM cannot be allowed to scrub 'Greece' from this article!!!" Since all Pericles and I are talking about here is whether Phillip II subdued "Greece" or "most of Greece" or "Greece, except Sparta", it's impossible to take you seriously because the word "Greece" has not been eliminated in any version of the text options.

You need to get control of yourself here and stop making idle threats if you don't get your way, whatever it is that you actually want. --Taivo (talk) 16:32, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Taivo your hatred towards Ancient Greece is becoming more and more evident by every comment you are doing, and thus your arrogance and so called expertise comes into light as ignorance every time. I fact if indeed you had any expertise as far as it concerns ancient Greece you would have already agreed to my position. But no, you big expert you want to bring this discussion into constant contradiction in order to finally take it int dispute resolution. Something that I will not let happen. I will first downrate the page. Lets start with your inconsistencies:

1st. Ancient Greek City states, (those that chose that form because others prefered different types of government) were in a constant war between each other not because they were not of the same enthnological entity but because they did not share the same view of how things should ran in their cities. Your effort to oversimplify for another time the blood bonds between ancient Greeks is another evidence of your anti-Greek POV pushing propaganda. I would furthrmore point here the fact that All Greeks participate in Olympic games no matter what the hostilities were between them. In addition when Thebes had war with another City of ancient Greek kingdom it is the definition of civil war and has nothing to do with any comparison like Canada vs America or France vs Germany since these people have not common blood bonds. 2nd. I return the characterisation of Donald Trump to you although I pity the old fellow to be compared with a provocateur like your self, Himself despite being arrogant has a vision, you are only pushing third party propaganda, without any real purpose. From the moment I started this conversation you entered it without any real intention to come to a consensus but rather your only intention was to impose your anti-Greek positions. Immediately you said that you were OK if I would edit the wording to subdueying some of Greece, when I never even implied somehting close to that and when the problem is both subdue and Greek. In addition, you continued bringing up conversation regarding the first sentence in an unprecendened effort anthellenism from a socalled expert editor. Wikipedia must really tighten up the way that gives tittles to editors, since it is clear that in your case there is incompetency and bias. Furthermore, What I said is that the one sided edition made by Pericles is subject of violation since we never came into consensus and an edition was done in an effort to downgrade the gravity of my supporting speech and presented arguments. On the contrary you Taivo did not loose time and report me last month and insisted furthmore I was the same person with GMantak user ( I might mistakes here this users name) that resulted in him being banned,and my account saved by the bell. Whose the Trump ?? That user lost his account cause of your arrogance and your nationalistic passion. You should ask him an apology. If you dont get your way you end up in banning other users. and now you do not want consensus you just want to keep this conversation going in an effort to bring it into a Dispute resolution where you probabley will find some helpful fellas to back your anti-Greek pushing POV. 3rd and I close. I have already asked you not to comment any more since you do not want to offer anything towards a consensus, since already from the beginning I rejected both the subdue and Greece in wording and I proposed civil war between Greek states, and again I got an answer from you about subdue and Greece and then how many times I proposed not to include subdue and Greece and now once again you bring it up. What happened in Phillip's occasion is that he had a war (civil) with Thebes and Athens for the sake of Athenians pride, and he won. and because at that time Peloponesseans except Spartans saw that they could not beat him they made the Greek League (as considered by some) or the League of Corinth (according to others), that Phillip II led. That says it all. Now, you and your complex towards Greece that probably has its roots in your nationality, must be eased unless you do not want to embarass more of yourself. Ancient Classical Greece incorporated Southern Italy, Sicily, Crete (maybe Cretans are the oldest of Greek tribes), Peoloponese, Athens, Corinth, Aegean islands, Macedonia, Epirus, Thrace and more other states and Kingdoms. Phillip II won the war (civil) against Thebes and Athens and your arrogance and empathy towards Greece is so high that you want to oversimply the whole of Ancient Classical Greece into only Thebes and Athens, and maybe Peloponese?? No dear Taivo. This is a lie, falsification, inaccuracy and clear propaganda. My proposition stands and is a civil war against Thebes and Athens. In that contaxt I am waiting for your proposition and not anything to do or similar with subdue or Greece, because that is a disgrace to history and wikipedia standards.Tidewings (talk) 20:20, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Here we go:

• You have no right to demand that I not participate in the discussion. So stop wasting your breath.
• You also have no right to threaten other editors with statements such as, "Unless you agree to my demands, I will report you". If other editors have broken a rule, you can report them. But threatening language and demanding that it's your way or nothing is not acceptable Wikipedia behavior. I have lost discussions before even when I knew that my opinion was a better one. What have I done? I accepted the decision of the majority and moved on. If you cannot learn that lesson then you should leave the English Wikipedia.
• You still don't know what the meaning of "civil war" is. The Greek city-states were independent countries and there was no "Greek government". We call it "ancient Greece" for convenience, but in actuality the list of independent countries would read "Athens", "Sparta", "Corinth", "Thebes", etc. Therefore using the term "civil war" for the warfare between them is absolutely wrong. Since your first language isn't English, when a native speaker of English corrects your usage of some term, you need to pay attention because you are the one who is wrong.
• And do you honestly think that I believe ancient Greece consisted of only the independent nations of Athens and Thebes? Are you actually so incapable of reading English that you misunderstand an example pair of city-states?
• You were reported for edit-warring in the article, not for participating in the discussion. Pericles is not edit warring, he has made edits that have been acceptable to other editors. Edit warring is reverting changes to the article text without starting a discussion here on the Talk Page and getting consensus. Once you have made four reverts in 24 hours on the article page without discussion or building consensus, then you were reported. That's the Wikipedia standard, nothing whatsoever unusual about it. You can read the rules for yourself at WP:3RR. No one has violated Wikipedia policies or rules here. You were told to make no edits without getting a consensus because of your behavior and violating Wikipedia editing rules, not because I disagreed with you.
• If you can't participate in a discussion such as this one, then perhaps you should not be editing in the English Wikipedia. You might enjoy editing in the Greek Wikipedia where many more editors will share your radical Greek nationalism. (I know that you're editing from an internet provider in Attica because of your IP address before you registered as Tidewings.) You don't seem to be suited at this time for editing in the English Wikipedia. I'm sure you can learn, but you don't seem to be willing to learn how to participate in a discussion with editors who disagree with your POV.

--Taivo (talk) 23:26, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

So lets put things into order. First of all you are full of contradictions. This are your words: (Macedonia transformed into the centuries. What Pericles means is Greece mainland in Southern as Greece is now. any mention of Greece is to show the interactions of Macedonia to Greek city states southern of her and I agree. Readers will interpret Greece as the southern part of Balkans. Greeks did not engage into civil war because they were independent). That's a lot of contradictions and inconsistencies,. You either have the same measurement for all your texts and historical facts or you are a fraud. you cannot choose what the readers get and make your own wilful moderations in history for the so called sake of 'readers ease', when you so bluntly say that you have to stick to correctness of the so called Greek-Macedonia relation that transformed in the history. Don't you get from the title this page deals with antiquity (ancient kingdom)!! Readers come here not only to reconfirm what they know but to get knowledge. Hence, your wilful-onesided view and editions are a try to misinform them. In the same sense I should start supporting that Macedonia is Greek, Macedonia is Greek, Macedonia is Greek now, so change everything. NO!, when you have a strictness in some historical facts, you stick to your strictness throughout the page otherwise you are a fraud, misleading, incompetent, provocateur, and paid off instrument.

• Bulleted list itemFirst of all I have every right to adress you and say you should not participate in this dialogue from the moment you do not offer anything other than trying to ruin this conversation, and fromt he moment you started this thing by trying and succedding into banning other users. It is my first and prime goal to promote the truth and yours is only to demolish the truth in order to promote the propaganda of your country FYRoM and their imperiallistic and so called 'unredeemed' aims.
• Bulleted list item .You are ignorant as long as it concerns Ancient Greece and if I were to use the phrases American Democrats use for Trump's inconsistences I would use a certain word they use that you are full of Taivo. Your ignorance and incompetence led you to believe and try even to impose the opinion that Greek city states and Greek ancient kingdoms have/had no blood relations between them, and furthermore your effort is to misinterpret the phrase 'civil war' for the sake of your countries endeavours and for the disgrace of historical facts. What Greek city states did between each other when in welfare was civil wars whether you like it or not. Myproposition hence stands as it is civil war between Macedonia Thebes and Athens. The Greek city states were always united under a common enemy of their civilization, culture, language, land, power, and ethnos, that's why they used to say ΠΑΣ ΜΗ ΕΛΛΗΝ ΒΑΡΒΑΡΟΣ, thats why they fought together in the Persian Wars, thats why they led the campaigne of Alexander into Persian Empire and they conquered it!. A civil war as it was fought between North and South states of the United States is a very later form of civil war and in fact any modern historian if would read your text would probably laugh. You don't even know the definition of Ethnos, what characteristics compose an ethnos (nation). You should be banned from editing in wikipedia because you should go back to school to be educated further! Really this is an advice stop embarassing yourself. For your sake I quote below what Cicero said about Syracuse ( I pity you man): "the greatest Greek city and the most beautiful of them all".
• Bulleted list item really are you so blind to see that you are so strict in other parts of this page (probably due to your propaganda promoting) and then you support and propose to lower the strictness in parts that would favour your anthellenic passion. This is not an example. If Phillip II in fact had subdued All of Greece, Rome would never rise. Phillip II is just a small chapter and he never subdued Greece. He succeeded in placing foundations for Alexander the Great and Greeks to conquer Persia nothing more. Subdue Greece is a wording for the garbage. My proposition stands as it is.
• Bulleted list item there is a difference in what you did reporting me and what I do, that is why I said that Pericles and yours mostly influenced action (since you influenced him in editing without consensus in an effort to downgrade my position) is subject to report, since a consensus never was made and rather it was an one sided act and not a result of consensus.
• Bulleted list item Finally, my suggestion of you being removed or better willingly stop commenting here in order for me and Pericles to come into a consensus (from the moment your acts are not offering anything but rather try to impose Anthellenic spirit and anti-Greek POV and propaganda). You know that wikipedia is a space where all nations have equal rights as far as they represent and act in favour of the truth. You cannot impose your FYRoM propaganda and then say to a user not write in English wikipedia because he supports the truth that by chance or facts is in accordance with Greek History. I bet you would love to see all Greek History and Historical facts in general being removed from the internet. It is better for you to stop editing in English wikipedia that way the redears in the future will not be fed with lies and propaganda.

My proposition hence stands: a civil war between Macedonia, Athens and Thebes. Thats the only thing that Phillip accomplished and not subdy=uying Greece, which a total LIE. Have you heard of the Seven wonders of Antiquity?? Two of them were placed in Asia Minor constructed by Greeks and another one in Rhodes Island (Aegean island) again by Greeks. And you dare to compare Greece with just Athens and Thebes??? Who do you think you are God or Stalin that you are permitted to do what ever you want with history?? Ancient Classical Greece incorporated: Southern Italy, Sicily, Crete, Aegean Islands, Peloponesse, Athens, Corinth, thebes, Macedonia, Epirus, Thrace and many more. The readers of this page must read the truth and not your propagandistic version of the truth. From the moment this page deals with ancient kingdom and antiquity Greece was much larger than what you try to pass to the middle user. And your unsuccessful efforts to link the page only to FYRoM are a fraud. From the moment you are strict with the facts that deal with Macedons I will be strict with the facts that deal with Greece. You either stop commenting or give a real proposition for the civil war between Athens, Thebes and Macedonia in ancient Greece there or you are fraud Taivo.Tidewings (talk) 08:11, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

You are still completely ignorant of the meaning of "civil war". The Greeks fought together against the Persians because they were allies during that war, not because they were a single state. Your understanding of the meaning of English words is faulty. I will oppose each and every attempt for you to try to transform the narrative of Phillip II's conquest and subjugation of Greece into a "civil war" because that is a false narrative. If it were a "civil war", then who was the head of state of all Greece at the time? Where was his capital city? You're simply pushing your radical Greek nationalist narrative. Your goal is still the same now as it always has been--to ignore and deny the complexity of ancient Macedonia's relationship with the ancient Greek city-states. You have nothing new to say that hasn't already been said on pages related to ancient Macedonia a hundred times before by other single-purpose accounts out of Greece. And your ignorance of basic English is demonstrated again by interpreting my question "perhaps you should not be editing" into a demand that you leave the English Wikipedia. But the real problem in your comments is that you demand a false narrative of "civil war" be inserted into this article. That will never achieve a WP:CONSENSUS here whether I participate in the decision or not because it is simply false and not based on the plain English meaning of "civil war". --Taivo (talk) 10:30, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Let me illustrate the clear difference between a "civil war" and a "war" (not a civil war), Tidewings.

• The American Revolution, in which the 13 southernmost American colonies of the United Kingdom revolted against their monarch, King George III, was a "civil war" because the population of a single country fought against themselves.
• The War of 1812, in which the United States fought against the United Kingdom, was not a civil war because the two were separate and independent countries. Even though they would fit within the definition of your "Greece"--generally a single culture, a single language, a single "ethnos". It was not a civil war because they were independent countries without a common government (like the ancient Greek city-states and Macedonia--no common government or monarch).
• The First World War, in which the United States and the United Kingdom fought side by side against the Germans and Japanese. They did not fight as one country, but simply as allies in a common cause.

Get this distinction clear in your head. The wars between the Greek city-states and between them and Macedonia were wars, not "civil wars". --Taivo (talk) 13:47, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Taivo, I suggest to you that you get a cold bath. I would also suggest you to travel back in time and try and convince Cicero to never say that Greeks (in Syracuse for example) were Greeks, because as you must explain to him, in the future you, and your arrogance and the false artificial nation of FYRoM will have problems to pass your unsubstantiated claims over Macedonian history! OHH darn time travel doesn't exist!! What a pity! well history then remains as it is. Your effort to manipulate and rewrite the Greek History and world history in total has been destroyed and dissolved into nothing in my previous post. You have no arguements to tackle true historical facts that I present, you cannot invoke any official and valid historical source to face my arguements and hence you try to make up unsubstantiated examples of the United states and United Kingdom and Germans and Japanese and maybe Martians or Aphroditians... blah, blah blah... Go ask Cicero, man, if Greeks were Greeks! Or maybe you know better than him? ? Maybe you are the master of Universe (Beware the eyes of the beholder are upon you!! Taivo is watching, Boo!).

You have nothing and no arguements. Greeks were Greeks since antiquity and many famous writers, poets, historians, and a plethora of archaelogical sites demonstrate and evidence it. I will also remind you the phrase from the Aenead poem by Virgil ΦΟΒΟΥ ΤΟΥΣ ΔΑΝΑΟΥΣ ΚΑΙ ΔΩΡΑ ΦΕΡΟΝΤΕΣ (go translate it your self I am done with educating you about ancient Greek History), where he makes clear that all kingdoms of antiquity From Peloponesse, Ionian Islands, Thessaly, Crete and further are of the same blood and nation, and are called with a single name. I will also rewrite what I did above that way you will get it into your stubborn ignorant and arrogant head ( that's why they used to say ΠΑΣ ΜΗ ΕΛΛΗΝ ΒΑΡΒΑΡΟΣ, thats why they fought together in the Persian Wars, thats why they led the campaigne of Alexander into Persian Empire and they conquered it!). I do not disagree that United states against United kingdom is not a civil war because United States in fact have nothing to do with the United Kingdom in 1812 (in the United States live Africans, Mexicans (Spanish and Indian Spanish) Indians, English, French, Dutch, Irish and many more nations hence it is not one nation but a melting pot of nations, maybe better said a mosaic of nations. On the contrary, this example you presentes verifies my arguement and evidence. Greek cities fought between each other always in a civil war context since they shared same blood line, language, traditions, culture, worship/religion, ethos, values and roots. United States have nothing to do with the UK, much more with Germany and France. I bet you never been taught that, in the hole where you crawled out from, to claim expertise in anything. I am tired with your empathy towards a nation that provided to Western world and civilization the basis in everything considering Science, Politics, and Liberty. Furthermore I am tired to argue with someone that is obvious that lacks of knowledge in history and language as far as it concerns Ancient Greece, not to mention the true reason of all these nonsense you speak of. Which is to never come to a consensus and redirect this conversation into a dispute resolution where some helpful fellas of yours will have a say. That will never happen. You cannot speak and edit of Ancient Greece because you have not even the slightest clue of it. Now finally to the real issueFrom the moment that you and those behind you think that you must be so strict with how you present Macedons to the middle user (thus according to your beliefs no Greece or Hellas must be even near to the word Macedonia), I will be the same strict with what is being written about Greece. This means, this page is a product of propaganda if it remains with the wording subduying Greece. GREECE in antiquiuty stretched from Southern Italy, to Sicily, Crete, Peloponese, Aegean islands, Thessaly, Epirus, Macedonia, Thrace and far more.Present your proposition to come to a consensus over the wording a civil war betwenn Athens, Thebes, and Macedonia, or stand beside. Phillip II was no Alexander. Phillip won only a civil war against Athenes and Thebes. If Phillip had all Greece under his dominion Rome would never have risen. The existing wording manipulates history and is propagandistic and biased.. I am tired of your nonsense, and the lack in arguements from your side. You have not presented not one real, true arguement or a reliable source.. Your only effort is to destroy any effort to bring a real and true consensus into a page that as it is misleads the common reader into believing Greece was just Peloponese. Maybe Syracuse never existed according to you?? where did Alkiviadis fled from Athens?? really isn't there anyone in wikipedia to bring this fraud of editor into his senses??Tidewings (talk) 17:42, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Tidewings, get this through your head: Phillip's conquest of Greece was not a civil war. Period. There will be no consensus whatsoever over your demand except that it was not a "civil war". That is just extreme nationalist Greek propaganda and a failure to understand simple English. My "proposal"? The existing text in the article is perfectly good, true, and proper as it is. It is the result of careful consensus building over the last 10 years. Just because you show up with radical nonsense doesn't mean that abandoning the status quo wording is a good idea. If this were a "civil war", then why isn't the Peloponnesian War called "The Peloponnesian Civil War"? Because the city-states of Greece were independent countries. Reliable source? More than 99% of English-language histories of Phillip's conquest of Greece do not call it a "civil war", but just a "war". (It's probably 100%, but there might be one fringe scholar who is a radical Greek nationalist like you.) But it's clear that you are a waste of time here. You have been banned from editing the article directly without achieving a consensus on the Talk Page so unless you change your tune, you will not get my support. I am in complete agreement with the wording as it exists in the article at this time after Pericles' recent edits[12] and utterly oppose your attempts to call this a "civil war". --Taivo (talk) 19:04, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Your other rant has to do with the extent of what ancient "Greece" was and how "subdued Greece, except Sparta" relates to that. Pericles and I, as native speakers of English, are confident that is a fairly accurate phrase in English for Phillip's accomplishment. It is you who have proposed no alternative wording that is equally succint and accurate. You just keep ranting about how "big" ancient Greece was, but there is a difference in historical understanding between "the Greek world" (Spain to Crimea) and "Greece" (the southern end of the Balkan Peninsula, the islands of the Aegean, and Crete), neither of which was any kind of political entity (hence a war between Corinth and Athens could not be a "civil war"). --Taivo (talk) 19:23, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Taivo I suggest to you to be renaimed LIE-vo from the lies you spread and your incompetent and unsubstantiated UNtrue, INvalid, UN-documented so called evidences!

LEts see the facts so far

• Greeks were Greeks since antiquity and were recognized as one entity-nation that incorporated Southern Italy, Sicily, Crete, Peloponese, Aegean Islands, Ionian Islands, Athens, Thebes, Thessaly, Epirus, Macedonia, Thrace and more. All those in Favour Cicero, Virgil, Homer, Herodotus, Dimaratos, Xerxes, and many more others and Furthermore the ubiquitous found throughout the Mediterranean basin archaelogical sites are additional evidence of the Classical era Greeks existence.. All those against Taivo- Lie-vo. Well I guess Taivo-Lie-vo must be correct since who cares about what historical facts, evidence, truth and famous historical figures say, right??? WRONG dude!

Lets see how Herodotus presents Greece and Greeks as one entity:'τῇ Ελλάδι (Hellas) πενίη μὲν αἰεί κοτε σύντροφός ἐστι, ἀρετὴ δὲ ἔπακτός ἐστι, ἀπό τε σοφίης κατεργασμένη καὶ νόμου ἰσχυροῦ·' [12th part, dialogue between him and Xerxes], and then again Dimaratos says “Be careful! The Greeks will fight and in particular, the Spartans will do it.” Xerxes had not stopped him, but had shaken his own head saying. “Are you joking?. . You are a fraud Taivo-LIE-vo and I have proved it. numerous times THE WARS BETWEEN ANCIENT GREEK CITY STATES AND KINGDOMS WERE CIVIL AND NOTHING MORE. PERIOD

• Lets see now why United States in 1812 had nothing to do with the UK. Well from around the middle late 1700s Europeans start to fled Europe due to constant warfare between states and Napoleonic wars. By the start of 1800s the USA in a mixture of: French, Austrians, Germans, Swedes, Dutch, Italians, but not only. Chinese, Indians (native ones) SPanish and Spanish Indians were just some of the nations that composed the United sates of America, that had nothing to do with the English, Scots, Welsch people of the United Kingdom and more. Can you get this to your stubborn, ignorant and arrogant head of yours TAIVO????
• Cite one of the sources you claim as reliable.I dare you cite one! And don't even pass from your mind to cite other wikipedia source, because judging by this page any knowlegable history man or historian will understand theextent of historical twistes that have been done in wikipedia.

Your empathy , anthellenism and prepostorous lies and efforts to cover historical facts and truth might have been successful in the past because probably all other editors have let you. Well I won't. I do not care if this page is as it is for the past 50 years. Communism lasted as a false land of 'honey and milk' for more than 60 years and collapsed in one night as this type of history twisting and falsification will.

• The British Empire comprised more than 50% of the globe in its peak, and was called British while it was never comprised of British indigenous populations, the same happened with Rome and the Roman Empire. And you the Taivo-Lievo try to say that a nation of same blood , language, traditions, culture, religion, military power, names, academia, and vision are just like United States of america that are a melting pot of civilizations. You area paid of instrument.

You have failed to propose a simple alternative to the lying wording, the disgrace to human history. What a fraud of Editor you are. Phillip II only dreamt of winning all of Greece for himself. He may tried also to convince him self at some point but probably reality was there to remind him the truth. Your worthless and unsuccessful efforts to present for another time that status quo is adequate have fallen into the abyss where their rightful place is for another time. STEP ASIDE to bring consensus to my proposition that is a true and accurate historical fact or propose a wording on my proposition. Otherwise you are a fraud. You are waisting my time and steal from the readers and viewers of this page the truth. Your are an instrument of propaganda and if you don't come to a consensus, its another evidence that wikipedia should ban you from editing on Ancient Greek History! Now finally to the real issue of this conversation. From the moment that you and those behind you think that you must be so strict with how you present Macedons to the middle user (thus according to your beliefs no Greece or Hellas must be even near to the word Macedonia), I will be the same strict with what is being written about Greece. This means, this page is a product of propaganda if it remains with the wording subduying Greece. GREECE in antiquiuty stretched from Southern Italy, to Sicily, Crete, Peloponese, Aegean islands, Thessaly, Epirus, Macedonia, Thrace and far more.Present your proposition to come to a consensus over the wording a civil war betwenn Athens, Thebes, and Macedonia, or stand beside. Phillip II was no Alexander. Phillip won only a civil war against Athenes and Thebes. If Phillip had all Greece under his dominion Rome would never have risen. The existing wording manipulates history and is propagandistic and biased..Tidewings (talk) 08:38, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

User:Tidewings has failed to reach a WP:CONSENSUS on his demand that the conflict between ancient Macedonia and the Greek city-states during the reigns of Phillip II and Alexander III be called a "civil war". By this warning, Tidewings is prohibited from editing the article without first building a consensus for his change(s). This should end the matter. --Taivo (talk) 10:46, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

User Taivo, is a propagandistic tool, a biased user, full of anthellenism. I totally reject his views as I totally reject his warning and prohibition. In addition because of his one sided action, and one sided clear effort to never let a consensus happen over my request I will have to down rate this page, as I will in the future inform in any social media, internet, and in general internet tool of this page and misleading, anthellenic, propagandistic, pro-FYROM positions and of TaivoLinguist puppeteer actions. Personally, I have seen from the his first re-edition of my edition that he is a puppet of pro-FYROM shadow tools, when he named without knowing me nationalist. Maybe Lie-vo-Taivo thinks he is a god and knows everything. My initial suspicions were full verified from his first post here, where he did nothing else but to stal any effort of re-placing this page intotruth. Unfortunately, it seems that his incompetency, and lack of history knowledge doesn't matter toWIKIPEDIA. His historical knowledge and tanalytical thinking is equal to that of a fifth grade child. He tried to connect the USA of 1812 (a multinational, multicultural, and multiethnic country with the Ancient Greece where every Greek had to prove his bloodline in order to be called Greek, fight for Greece, and participate in the Olympics. In Roman empire someone could buy the Roman citizenship. In Ancient classical Greece that stretched from southern Italy, to sicily, Crete, Peloponnese, Central Greece, Thessaly, Macedonia, Epirus, Thrace, Asia Minor, Aegean islands, Pontus and beyond, this never happened. You were either born Greek or you weren't. After several false, unsuccessful, and embarassing for him posts and examples (in his own sphere of fantasy) and when he failed to cite even one reliable source after several reliable and true citations from my side, he understood he had made a fool of himself and that his so called expertise was shredded into pieces. The only thing that left for him to do was to forbid a user to edit this disgrace of historical truth of a page. I pity any viewer or reader of this shameful biased page, and I would pity Taivo-Lievo if he wasn't being paid of. This page must be down rated for biased and anthellenism. Maybe Taivo should also be given the chance to retire for a while from editing since it is obvious he lacks of credibility, objectivity, history education, and is full of bias. I will make it clear all around the net this is a rubbish page.Tidewings (talk) 19:45, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Just a clarification for User:Tidewings, since he doesen't seem to understand the mechanics of Wikipedia. I did not prohibit him from anything. His warning and prohibition against editing the article without prior consensus was issued by a neutral Wikipedia administrator, User:EdJohnston, based on his examination of Tidewings' brief editing history. The rest of Tidewings' post is just sour grapes at not being able to insert his radical Greek nationalism into this article. I'll put my editing history and my ability to help develop and work within consensus against his any day. --Taivo (talk) 21:46, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Summary of preceding language flood about "subduing Greece"

For those of you who don't want to read the torrent of words above, here is a summary of the discussion roughly as it proceeded:

• User:Tidewings objected to the wording "subdued Greece" since Philip II never subdued all of Greece.
• User:Pericles of Athens then edited the article to change the wording to "subdued most of Greece".
• Tidewings objected to "most of" and stated that his view of "Greece" included all Greek colonies from Spain to Crimea and that Philip's conquests were not "most of" that region.
• Pericles then edited the article to read "subdued Greece, except Sparta".
• User:TaivoLinguist accepted Pericles' edit as a good one. (Since Tidewings is prohibited from editing the article without gaining prior consensus on the Talk Page, that is the current text in the article.)
• Tidewings objected to that wording again, stating that not only is it an inaccurate portrayal of "Greece" (which to him includes all Greek colonies as well), but that the war was a "civil war" and, therefore, Philip could not "subdue" Greece since Macedonia was part of Greece.
• Taivo pointed out that "civil war" in English can only refer to war amongst factions of the population of a single independent country, not across international boundaries as Philip's conquest was. Taivo also pointed out that the common meaning of "Greece" in English is the region at the southern end of the Balkan peninsula and does not include the wider "Greek world" from Spain to Crimea
• Tidewings objected stating that since all Greeks have a common language and ethnicity (for him this includes ancient Macedonians), then it was a civil war. He also continued to include all the Greek colonies as "Greece".
• Taivo again (and repeatedly) pointed out that in English "civil war" can only occur within the boundaries of a single independent state and not across the international boundaries which separated all the Greek city-states and the boundary between the Greek states and Macedonia.
• Tidewings again (and repeatedly) objected and claimed that "civil war" applies within a single ethnic group and that international boundaries are irrelevant.

That is where the discussion stands. There is no consensus for characterizing the war between Philip II and Greece as a "civil war" and no consensus for using the word "Greece" to include the entire Greek world from Spain to Crimea. --Taivo (talk) 10:33, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

@TaivoLinguist: thanks for the summary! There's no way I was going to read all of that otherwise. LOL. Also, I think the ancient Athenians, Spartans, Corinthians, and Thebans (let alone the Macedonians and Epirotes) would be rather confused by this talk of civil war, unless it was a civil war (stasis) happening within the boundaries of their own respective poleis.

Athenian rhetoric leading up to the Sicilian Expedition (415–413 BC), for instance, couched things in terms of fighting Sparta and their fellow Dorians in Sicily, mainly Syracuse, in defense of Athens' Ionian allies on the island. All of these were independent city-states and they were fighting each other across the Mediterranean for tribal and economic reasons, with the loose Hellenic identity, pan-Hellenic games and religion/adherence to oracles being the common denominators and cultural ties that bound them. Pericles of Athens^Talk 11:30, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

...well, that and a healthy distrust/dislike of the Persians. That always brought the Greeks together, and it even allowed them to view Macedonians as brothers in arms, for that matter. LOL. Pericles of Athens^Talk 11:33, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

"Civil war" also completely ignores the political complexity of the Macedonian hegemony, considering how Philip II established and led the League of Corinth because it was an overarching, cohesive political structure that made sense to the Democratic-minded Greeks living in city-state poleis. When it came to international bodies and political alliances between these city-states, they thought in terms of using collective representation by periodically electing a strategos and other officials to handle the affairs of the league. That's the closest you'd get to a politically united Greece before the Roman conquest that made all of Greece into two, sometimes three Roman provinces. Pericles of Athens^Talk 11:40, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

A Civil war is when 2 factions within the same entity (a city-state or kingdom) are fighting each other, for various reasons, usually for power. Wars between separate entities (aka the Peloponnesian War where Athens fought Sparta) can not count as civil wars, unless one is wrongly reading the politics of the ancient era, though a modern-day nationalist prism (the Greek National Awakening, among other factors, played a role in Greeks valuing national identity over local one). --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 23:11, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

On the issue of "civil war" and "Greece"

This is just a brief list based on a simple internet search on the subject of Philip II and the conquest of Greece.

• This source ends with the sentence, "Thus, Philip had become master of all Greece." At no point is the conflict between Macedonia and the Greek city-states called a "civil war".
• This source contains the sentence, "By 356 BC Philip was in a position to begin his wars of conquest against the Greek city-states" ("war", not "civil war"). And later, "Thus Philip united Greece in a single federation for the first time in its history."
• This source contains the sentence, "It was the first time in history that most of the Greek states had joined together as a single political entity" (note the use of "most of").

It's not hard to find sources that 1) do not call Philip's wars against Greece "civil wars", 2) credit Philip with conquering or subduing "(most of) Greece". --Taivo (talk) 20:04, 9 January 2019 (UTC)