Talk:Herbaceous plant

2007-8

The photo is too dark to convey any information. Kember 12:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

A better photo can be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.68.64.210 (talk) 13:06, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Rosemary

In the Rosemary article it is described as a herb. But Rosemary has woody matter above the soil line. Perhaps somebody can explain this a little better as this article suggests that Rosemary shouldn't be considered a Herbaceous plant. (Is there a loose and tight definition perhaps?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.123.69.70 (talk) 16:45, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi. Yes, there are various definitions. Botanical herbs (this article) are indeed defined as having no woody stems, but culinary and other types of herb are defined in other ways: see Herb (to which Rosemary is in fact linked). Bay laurel too of course, and quite a few other aromatic trees and shrubs – botany does not have the sole claim on the word. I've put a hat-note on this article to link to the other type. Richard New Forest (talk) 22:41, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

salam alikum — Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.90.85.23 (talk) 17:09, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Conflict with British usage of “herbaceous”

The RHS A-Z Encyclopedia of Garden Plants defines “herbaceous plant” as “a non-woody plant that dies back (loses top-growth and becomes dormant) at the end of the growing season ... overwintering by means of underground rootstocks.” By this definition there are several groups that are NOT herbaceous - e.g. primulas, heucheras, bergenias. These are all “evergreen perennials”!

Americans would describe any non-woody plant as herbaceous.

I think this distinction needs to be highlighted in the article. Darorcilmir (talk) 16:04, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

This isn't a simply a British/American issue, since there are sources of British and American origin that use different definitions, e.g. the Kew Glossary and the online WCSP based at Kew use different definitions. Part of the problem is that the article conflates "herbaceous plant" and "herb", whereas many sources distinguish between them, although sometimes in contradictory ways. In the online glossary for the Flora of North America, for example (start here):

"herbaceous (plant)" – "Having no significant degree of secondary growth in any part of the shoot, which thus does not develop woody (lignified) tissue"

"herb" – "Annual, biennial, or perennial with no woody (lignified) tissue in any part of the shoot; when persisting over more than one growing season, the parts of the shoot dying back seasonally"

So on the FNA definition, a banana plant is a "herbaceous plant", but it is not a "herb", since the parts of the shoot do not die back seasonally. On the other hand, by the RHS Encyclopedia definition quoted above, a banana plant is not a "herbaceous plant", since its definition corresponds to the FNA's definition of a "herb" (or should that be 'an "herb"').

All sources agree that substantial woodiness is absent in herbs and herbaceous plants, but differ in whether they die back seasonally, and whether they use "herbaceous plant" and "herb" interchangeably or not.

• Uses "herbaceous" in a way that allows perennial non-woody stems: FNA glossary, Kew's World Checklist of Selected Plant Families
• Uses "herbaceous" so as to require seasonal die back: RHS A-Z Encyclopedia of Garden Plants, Kew Plant Glossary

But I absolutely agree that the article needs to cover differences in usage. Peter coxhead (talk) 20:15, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

The WCSP has a substantial international input. I still think there is an Anglo-American conflict (not that it solves any problems).

There is another issue. In British usage, “herb” means a culinary or medicinal plant such as mint or sage. Even rosemary, a shrub, is called a herb in the UK. The American “herb” as a herbaceous plant, is found only rarely in Britain (see the Wikipedia article Herb). Darorcilmir (talk) 11:23, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

It's clearly that "herb" in cooking, at least in the UK, has a wider sense than "herb" in botanical usage.

As to British vs. American in botanical usage, the quintessentially British flora by Clapham, Tutin & Moore defines "herb" as "any vascular plant that is not woody", which is what you called the American definition above. On the other hand, the equally British Stace flora requires both a "herb" and a "herbaceous plant" to die down seasonally, whereas the Flora of North America requires this only of a "herb". So the "dying down seasonally" requirement can be found in both British and American sources, as can the non-requirement. Whether a really broad survey would find a statistical difference I'm not sure – I have access to more British than American sources.

Anyway, the real question is what to do. It seems to be established from reliable sources that:

1. Some sources make a distinction between "herb" and "herbaceous plant", others don't.
2. For each term, at least one source can be found that makes it a requirement that the plant dies down seasonally, and at least one source that doesn't make this a requirement.

This information needs to be added to the article. Peter coxhead (talk) 12:13, 8 April 2018 (UTC)