Talk:Hemming's Cartulary

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Featured articleHemming's Cartulary is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on August 30, 2011.
Did You Know Article milestones
DateProcessResult
October 9, 2009Good article nomineeListed
December 4, 2009Peer reviewReviewed
July 29, 2010Featured article candidatePromoted
Did You Know A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on April 11, 2009.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that Hemming's Cartulary is the first surviving medieval English cartulary?
Current status: Featured article

Scrolly/hidden section...[edit]

That's gotta go. It's very much against the MOS and it'll get whapped at FAC (where this article is headed at some point.) Is that level of detail REALLY necessary for an encyclopedia article? If it is, a plain table would probably be best. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:27, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And I do think it's unneeded detail. The exact folios and what is on them is probably better for a monograph, not Wikipedia. Sorry! Ealdgyth - Talk 20:28, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That one can go, no probs. Apart from the fact that something had gone awry with the cells, it's probably not meaningful to most readers anyway. Cavila (talk) 21:00, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the other additions though, looking good. I always need someone to help with organization on these sorts of articles... I'm not really a "document" scholar. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:02, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Hemming's Cartulary/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Starting review. Pyrotec (talk) 10:02, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Initial comments[edit]

After a quick read through, this article has all the appearances of being a GA. I will now do a detailed section by section review. Pyrotec (talk) 10:16, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm only covering "problems" at this point (you've done these GANs before):
  • Themes and contents -
  • The fourth paragraph comments on the Prefatio and the Enucleatio. We know about the Enucleatio since it has introduced previously in Hemming's cartulary proper; but, unless I've missed it, there is no prior introduction to the Prefatio (its not in my latin dictionary, so I'm not going to pretend that I know what it is).
  • Second paragraph introduces the block quote with "Hemming's introduction to his work (Prefatio) claims that it was produced to Wulfstan's successors..." which seems to pretty much introduce the Prefatio and explain what it is. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:30, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the explanation. You are correct, it is there and it was obviously there earlier - I just did not see it. I also used "find" and only got one hit; but I get two now. Pyrotec (talk) 22:33, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pyrotec (talk) 11:14, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Overall summary[edit]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

  1. Is it reasonably well written?
    A. Prose quality:
    B. MoS compliance:
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. References to sources:
    Well referenced
    B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
    Well referenced
    C. No original research:
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. Major aspects:
    B. Focused:
  4. Is it neutral?
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. Is it stable?
    No edit wars, etc:
  6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
    A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
    B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:
  • Congratulations on the quality of the article. I'm awarding GA status. Pyrotec (talk) 22:38, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions[edit]

Hi Ealdgyth, here are some ideas for expansion:

How about more on the fate of the manuscript? How did it end up in the Cotton library? Are there any other medieval copies or modern transcriptions?

Although this might be extremely boring for the average reader, what about palaeographical and codicological information. This might fit in with the "composition" section at the beginning, which already has some of that info. How big is the manuscript? How many lines per page? What kind of script(s) does it use? Does that help date it? Are there different colours of ink? Are there any illustrations? My palaeography terminology is a little rusty, but some of that info is obvious from the one example image (I mean, it looks insular, or uncial - or is it insular uncial? - mixed with Carolingian, typical of pre-Gothic scripts of the 11th-12th centuries, but definitely don't take my word for it!). Have any of the editors gone into such detail? Hopefully the forthcoming edition would do so. Adam Bishop (talk) 04:40, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll dig a bit. Found some refs to some books I hope I can check out next week sometime when I run up to U of I for a bit. I'm wondering how this should be structured. Strictly speaking, the Liber is a separate work, but I'm not sure there is enough to make its own article, and if we do, we have the issue of the manuscript is left without a "home". Suggestions? Should we split LW off, leave the Hemming work itself here and maybe do a manuscript page for the details of the manuscript itself? Or keep everything here which will have the advantage of making this article actually of a decent size. Now I remember why I don't do manuscripts... blech! Ealdgyth - Talk 21:32, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If a work is contained in only one manuscript (as this is? Unless I have misread), then I think we can keep all the info in one place. This is unlike, say, all those articles about Bible fragments, along with a general article about the Bible. Adam Bishop (talk) 22:23, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Notes while I'm on the road...[edit]

Ownership of the main manuscript seems to be obscure. There are annotations in it that were made by John Joscelyn, who was a secretary to Matthew Parker and Parker died in 1575. Most of Parker's manuscripts went to Corpus Christi College, so it is possible that Joscelyn's annotations came after Parker's death and the manuscript was not owned by Parker. It's worth noting that Parker owned the Worcester version of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle though, could the Cartulary have been sold off at some point from Parker's collection? Otherwise there isn't much to note on who owned it prior to Cotton. It was in Cotton's hands by 1612-1615, when the manuscript was loaned out to Arthur Agarde. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:59, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note that Parker (according to the ODNB) got a number of manuscripts from Worcester Priory. And that a number of manuscripts owned by him were not given to CC but instead ended up in his sons' hands and then were sold later, so it's possible that HC was owned by Parker prior to it ending up with Cotton. Will track down some works on Parker's library ... Ealdgyth - Talk 18:42, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

working section...[edit]

Going to try a "small" table of the overview of the contents, without getting into excrutiating detail here. Working space/sandbox!

Folios Section of manuscript usually classified as Contents
1–21 Liber Wigorniensis 28 documents headed by the title "Into Vveogerna Cestre", followed by miscellaneous documents on three pages
22–27 Liber Wigorniensis 8 documents headed by the title "Into Vvincelcvmbe Scire"
28–32 Liber Wigorniensis 8 documents headed by the title "Into Oxena Forda Scire", followed by miscellaneous documents on twelve pages
28–38 Liber Wigorniensis 8 documents headed by the title "Into Oxena Forda Scire", followed by miscellaneous documents on twelve pages
39–46 Liber Wigorniensis 7 documents headed by the title "Into Gleawescestre Scire", followed by miscellaneous documents on twelve pages
47–56 Liber Wigorniensis 14 documents with no heading, mainly relating to Gloucestershire
57–102 Liber Wigorniensis Leases
103–109 Liber Wigorniensis 8 documents headed by the title "Into Waernincg Wican", followed by a page with one miscellaneous document
110 Inserted smaller parchment page Listing of 8 names
111-113 Liber Wigorniensis Leases
114-118 Liber Wigorniensis Miscellaneous documents, including an Old English homily, lists of the bishops of Worcester, kings of Mercia, and land records
119–126 Hemming's Cartulary Codicellus possessionum
127–134 Hemming's Cartulary More Codicellus possessionum; Enucleatio libelli; "Indiculum libertatis" (later document on the privileges of the Oswaldslow hundred)
135–142 Hemming's Cartulary "Oswald's Indiculum" (on services due from Oswald of Worcester's lessees); record of an agreement between Wulfstan of Worcester and Abbot Walter of Evesham (later); excerpt from Domesday Book (later)
143 Inserted smaller parchment page 11th-century listing of jurors
144–152 Hemming's Cartulary Charters
153 Inserted smaller parchment page 12th-century list of boundaries of a manor in Old English
154–164 Hemming's Cartulary Some charters; Old English boundary-clauses (later)
165–166 Miscellaneous Table of contents in a 15th-century hand of both the Liber Wigorniensis and Hemming's Cartulary
167-175 Hemming's Cartulary Regnal list, with list of royal gifts to the monastic community; charters
176 Hemming's Cartulary List of bishops of Worcester, with their gifts to the monastic community; Prefatio; list of charters
177 Inserted smaller parchment page Listing of taxes levied by King William in Old English and a list of holders of land eligible for the geld in Worcestershire shortly after Domesday Book
178-200 Hemming's Cartulary History of estates retrieved for the monks by Ealdred and Wulfstan, with charters (some added later); charters

How does this look to everyone? It avoid the incredible detail that would overwhelm the article but yet gives a graphical organization of the information for those that do that easier. Any thing else that's needed? Other bits are welcome to be added to. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:44, 6 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think something like this is needed, and this is about the right level of detail. Mike Christie (talk) 22:46, 6 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Something went wrong when I had my Open Office table converted into a wiki-table (using the otherwise handy built-in Open Office function for these purposes), so it would be better to rely on Francesca Tinti's table (at p. 238 of her aricle) directly. But I somehow assume you did exactly that, with Ker to hand. I should probably explain to other readers that Tinti's table represents a reconstruction of what Hemming's (own) cartulary might have looked like, with the sections and quires being re-aligned to follow a different sequence from that presently suggested by the foliation in the manuscript. The different columns are then used for (1) MS sections (numbered H, I, J, K and L, per Neil Ker; A to G being used for the Liber); (2) folio numbers; (3) MS quires (numbered 1 to 10); (4) a description of the contents of each quire; (5) the hands used; and finally, (6) the pages in Hearne's edition. Folios 143, 153 and 177 do not belong to the original cartulary. That's surely more than I would bargain for as a general reader and a tad speculative, to boot. That said, a couple of things just had to be in there. I added some content, providing an extremely brief explanation where our main text does not go into further detail. Note the gap, however, on fos. 165r-166v, which is left unexplained in the article (?). Cavila (talk) 23:01, 6 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think that's an error with my copying, actually. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:05, 6 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, no, they are not discussed in the article that I can find. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:16, 6 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Just had a good look at Hearne's edition, which has the king-list at ff. 164r-v, a charter of King Edgard concerning Bickmarsh (Sawyer no. 751) at f. 165r-166r and then a charter issued in Coenwulf's name. Which means that in deciding on folio numbering, he disregarded the 15th-century addition, whereas modern scholars now include it. Good to know, actually. Cavila (talk) 00:06, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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2010 edition[edit]

Hi Ealdgyth. I think it's very important to acknowledge that, as of yet, the 2010 edition has not emerged. I've seen countless people trying to hunt down that edition, assuming it has been produced and published. Faust.TSFL (talk) 13:18, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You added the information to the lead, but not to the body - and added it without a source. The lead summarizes the body and new information should be sourced. The reason it's worded as it is, is because we don't have a source that states it hasn't been published yet - we can't do WP:SYNTH and WP:OR and say it's not out yet when our sources don't say that. Sucks, but that's the way wikipedia works. Ealdgyth (talk) 13:23, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It has never been published and the statement that it is forthcoming as of 2010 is cited to the 2004 ODNB article, so I will delete the statement. Dudley Miles (talk) 14:41, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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