Talk:Hayrack

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Expansion needed[edit]

Needs lots more photos and a better lay out. I have several thousand pics of kozolci as well as some line drawings. Find the time is the problem. Metulj 15:14, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

More detail in the text about how the structure functions may be of more value than a large gallery of pictures. How is hay compressed enough to cure properly? Does a kozolec with a narrow roof allow rain onto the sides of the hay, making it important to store it in a way that sheds water? The round lumber looks like it might be fixed only temporarily in the frames: is it moved to allow loading/unloading? --128.115.27.11 (talk) 22:55, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am switching the title back to "kozolec." The word does not translate to "hayrack" in English. It has no real direct translation that would be meaningful to the English speaker. The etymology includes a notion of "goatness." The word would be "lata" in that case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Metulj (talk • contribs) 16:04, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hayrack (or hay rack) is a good translation, and clear as well: a rack for hay. (Its polysemy with 'feeding rack' and 'hay wagon' are not problematic.) The term hayrack has been used in printed sources for the kozolec at least since 1954 and is quite common today: Google Books has 122 publications issued since 2005 using this term. Similar phrasal descriptions are even older: "cutting hay and hanging it to dry on wooden racks covered by little shingle roofs" (1936), "hay was hung out to yellow on great racks by the wooden barns" (1939). Any etymological association with goats (which is likely but not certain) is irrelevant for the English translation. Doremo (talk) 15:27, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The word does not convey the sense of its use. It is a folk term applied to an item of folk architecture. It is a kozolec. In Austria, it word be a harpfe. The harpfe does not translate as "hayrack." Also, as noted in Melik, Music, and Applegate, it is not used for grass alone. Metulj (talk) 02:32, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea why this keeps getting switched back to hay rack. Expert opinion in the academic literature differentiates the kozolec as a unique Slovene architectural form. Valvasor noted it. Cvec and Cop, Melik, Music, Sopher, and Applegate with copious amounts of field work note it as well. Whoever is changing it back knows nothing about Slovene folk architecture. Metulj (talk) 03:33, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please, provide reliable English-language sources and propose a move at WP:RM. When you get consensus through this process, feel free to change all occurences of 'hayrack' (except for the ones in titles of sources) to 'kozolec'. Judging by the conversation above, there is currently no such consensus. Thank you. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 10:11, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

One: There is no "consensus" when one sees 2 people talking about the eytmology and another switching the word "hay rack" back in for the Slovene word. A crepe is a pancake, but not all pancakes are crepes. Razumeš? Reliable sources in English: ^[1] ^[2] ^[3]Metulj (talk) 12:49, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You may use WP:3O, if you wish. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 12:59, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Metulj, your tone may be perceived as both insulting ("knows nothing about Slovene folk architecture") and condescending ("Razumeš?") to the other contributors involved in this discussion. Please review Wikipedia:Civility. Your constructive contributions to the project are welcome. Doremo (talk) 13:07, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And you use of "polysemy" incorrectly to try to make a point is, well, whatever it is. A kozolec is a drying rack. It is NOT a hayrack. If you want to be accurate use "drying rack." And a search in "Google Books" does not make a literature review. There are exactly 4 English language academic references (not travel magazines and Lonely Planet) that exist, including Čop and Cvec's "Slovenski Kozolec/Slovenian Kozolec." Note that they do not translate the word....Metulj (talk) 13:29, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A visual survey of Google images does not support your suggestion: "hayrack", "drying rack". Doremo (talk) 15:22, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So, a bit of googling is the same as expert opinion by doctorate holding academics? I love wikipedia. It is a risible position.Metulj (talk) 21:08, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The personal characteristics of contributors are much less relevant than the weight of established usage and reliable published sources, particularly those by native English speakers in this case. (And please be more cautious in assuming who is an expert, who has a doctorate, and who has academic credentials.) Doremo (talk) 03:04, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The word "kozolec" does not mean "hayrack" in Slovenian. I am a native Slovene speaker and a Slavic linguist. It is derived from the same root as the word for "goat:" kozol and the connection is lost to time. The article should be titled "Kozolec." There is no cognate word in English for it.71.234.176.54 (talk) 17:45, 17 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That is an etymological fallacy. Doremo (talk) 19:16, 17 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References[edit]

^ Applegate, Toby Martin, "The Kozolec: Material Culture, Identity, and Social Practice in Slovenia. " Master's Thesis, University of Tennessee, 2008. http://trace.tennessee.edu/utk_gradthes/345
^ Applegate, T. (2011). “The Kozolec: Material Culture, Social Practice, and National Identity in Slovenia.” Material Culture. 43(1): 1-20
^ Sopher, D. E. 1979. "The Landscape of Home: Myth, Experience, Social Meaning." The Interpretation of Ordinary Landscapes: Geographical Essays: 129-149.

Proposed merger[edit]

I don't know why it was proposed that this article be merged with hay rack. The hay rack article is about devices for feeding animals, and the hayrack article is about structures for drying and storing hay. Doremo (talk) 10:51, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ridiculous. No. It would make sense to put a headnote up cautioning people not to confuse the two but that's it. --U5K0'sTalk_{Make WikiLove not WikiWar} 13:56, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not only used in Sloveia[edit]

Why are this article only focusing on Slovenia? Hayracks (swedish: Hässjor) where used in Sweden, Norway and so on as well. Dnm (talk) 14:51, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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[1] Applegate, Toby Martin, "The Kozolec: Material Culture, Identity, and Social Practice in Slovenia. " Master's Thesis, University of Tennessee, 2008. http://trace.tennessee.edu/utk_gradthes/345

[2] Applegate, T. (2011). “The Kozolec: Material Culture, Social Practice, and National Identity in Slovenia.” Material Culture. 43(1): 1-20

[3] Sopher, D. E. 1979. "The Landscape of Home: Myth, Experience, Social Meaning." The Interpretation of Ordinary Landscapes: Geographical Essays: 129-149.

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