Talk:Hasan Prishtina

Šišković

@ZjarriRrethues: Please don't remove referenced assertion that Hasan Prishitna was Šišković. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:06, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Hasan Prishtina has been attested with many names, but they don't include "Hasan Siskovic". I'll remove your OR deduction and I expect you to stick to the sources.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 21:29, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

@ZjarriRrethues:Don't remove cited addition of other users. The source which is used to support Šišković last name of Hasan Priština is written by Ivo Banac, the author whose work you already used in article editing.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:34, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Although I've never encountered it anywhere it could be a clan name, but it's not attested anywhere as his actual surname (clan names aren't the same as family names). The actual surname used in sources is Berisha, while there's no Hasan Siskovic. I've already added the source but you reverted me i.e source misrepresentation. Please stick to the sources.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 22:05, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I already do stick to the source written by Ivo Banac who use Šišković as alternative last name for Hasan. And he is not the only one. Here is my edit by which I actually corrected your misinterpretation of the source written by Miranda Vickers which I added, not you. So your accusation that I reverted you and misinterpreted the source is unjustified. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:11, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I added Malcolm[1] i.e source misrepresentation on your part. Neither Banac nor Vickers mention any Hasan Siskovic. Vickers says from the powerful clan of Siskovic. Malcolm says Foremost among the deputies from Kosovo was Hasan bey Prishtina (so called because he had been elected to represent Prishtina in 1908;his family name was Berisha).. Clan names attributed to him vary, but the surname was Berisha. His father was Ahmet Berisha Prishtina, Hasan Bey, albanischer Politiker, * Vucitrn (Kosovo) 1873, f (ermordet) Saloniki 14. VIII. 1933, Sohn des Ahmed Berisha, der um 1871 aus dem Dorf Poljance in Drenica nach Vucitrn übersiedelte. Among others you can find the surname in Elsie's website Hasan bey Prishtina (1873-1933) was born in Vushtrria (Kosovo) and attended a French secondary school in Thessalonika and a college of administration in Istanbul. His actual name is Hasan Berisha..--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 22:31, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake. You added Malcolm without a quote, after Miranda Vickers and after member of Ottoman Parliament assertion twice so I did not notice you used it to support Berisha alternative family name which I will return.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:54, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes Hasan Prishtina obviously have origins in Poljanice. He also had blood-relatives there - Veljić brothers. Муслимани наше крви у Јужној Србији" written by Јован Хаџи Васиљевић says "У селу Пољанцу постоје браћа Вељићи, крвни сродник им је Хасан бег Вучитрнац, Шишковић." I will translate it for you: Veljić brothers from Poljance are related to Hasan-bey of Vučitrn, Šišković. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:03, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

There are more sources which support the claim that Hasan was Šišković: East Central European society and the Balkan wars by Béla K. Király, Dimitrije Djordjevíc, Brooklyn College. Program on Society in Change: "The committee was headed by Hasan-Prishtina from the well-known feudal house of Siskovic in VuSitrn," --Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:08, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

In the sources his name appears as Hasan Prishtina or Hasan bey Prishtina his original name was Hasan Berisha. The name Hasan Berisha appears in his school records in Istanbul. He changed his surname to Prishtina when he was elected in Ottoman Parliament in 1908 (see German language sources):

1. "Hasan bey Prishtina, originally known as Hasan Berisha..."Historical Dictionary of Kosovo Volume 79 of Historical Dictionaries of Europe G - Reference, Information and Interdisciplinary Subjects Series Volume 79 of European historical dictionaries Author Robert Elsie Edition 2, illustrated Publisher Scarecrow Press, 2010 ISBN 0810872315, 9780810872318 page 223-224
2. "Hasan Bey Prishtina (ursprünglich Hasan Berisha) (Geboren 1873 in Vushtrii/Kosovo – 1933 in Thessaloniki) Aus einer Großgrundbesitzerfamilie stammend, studierte Hasan Berisha in Istanbul Jura... im ersten Parlament des Osmanischen Reiches und namh den namen "Prishtina" .. und fuhrte den titel bey...(Hasan Bey Prishtina (originally Hasan Berisha) (Born in 1873 in Vushtrii / Kosovo - 1933 in Thessaloniki) Born into a landowning family, studied law in Istanbul as Hasan Berisha. In 1908 he was a deputy in the first parliament of the Ottoman Empire and took the name "Prishtina" ..and the title bey)" KOSOVO Informieren-Reisen-Erinnern Author Susanne Dell Editor Susanne Dell Publisher BoD – Books on Demand, 2010 ISBN 3839191793, 9783839191798 page 113-114
3. "Prishtina, Hasan Bey, albanischer Politiker, * Vucitrn (Kosovo) 1873, f (ermordet) Saloniki 14. VIII. 1933, Sohn des Ahmed Berisha, der um 1871 aus dem Dorf Poljance in Drenica nach Vucitrn übersiedelte, ..Im Dezember 1908 wurde P. als Abgeordneter Pristinas ins turkischeParlament gewahlt; das war auch der zeitpunkt, wo er seinen Familiennamen in Prishtina.... (Prishtina, Hasan Bey, the Albanian politicians, * Vucitrn (Kosovo) 1873, f (assassinated) Salonika 14th VIII, 1933, son of Ahmed Berisha, who around 1871 moved from the village poljance in Drenica to Vucitrn ... In December 1908, p chosen as a Pristina delegate to the turkish Parlament, which was also the time when he changed his family name in Prishtina ....)" Biographisches Lexikon zur Geschichte Südosteuropas, Volume 3 Volume 75 of Südosteuropäische Arbeiten Biographisches Lexikon zur Geschichte Südosteuropas, Felix von Schroeder Editors Mathias Bernath, Felix von Schroeder Publisher Oldenbourg Verlag, 1979 ISBN 3486489917, 9783486489910 page 485-468
4. "Foremost among the deputies from Kosovo was Hasan bey Prishtina (so called because he had been elected to represent Prishtina in 1908; his family name was Berisha). He had studied at the French lycee in Salonica and had originally ..." Kosovo: a short history Author Noel Malcolm Edition illustrated, reprint Publisher Macmillan, 1998 ISBN 0333666127, 9780333666128 page 245

His original name Hasan Berisha and most known name Hasan bey Prishtina are well known and documented. Everything else is in WP:Fringe area Aigest (talk) 08:27, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes there are sources which say that his last name was Berisha. Nobody denied that. There are also reliable sources which say that he was from well known fedual house of Šišković. Sources which are written by contemporary historians and frequently cited on wikipedia and in other scholarly works. Don't remove them and don't label them as WP:Fringe unless you can provide link to RSN wiht consensus which support your fringe thesis.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:52, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

His last name was Berisha, this is the name he was registered in school, not "there are sources which say that his last name was Berisha".

1. Hasan Prishtina google hits about 185,000 results
2. "Hasan Berisha" 1873 google hits About 904 results
3. Hasan Siskovic google hits No results found for "hasan siskovic".
4. "Siskovic clan" google hits 2 results of which 1 is this wiki article
5. "Siskovic feudal" google hits no results
6. "Siskovic feudal house" google hits no results
7. "Siskovic house" google hits no results

It is clear that this Sickovic clan or feudal house (so powerful and famous clan that gets just one google hit) is something of a fancy tale and furthermore the relation between Hasan Prishtina and Siskovic is in WP:FRINGE area and not the viceversa. The only source is Ivo Banac (whose topic was not on Hasan Prishtina himself) and the same thing is repeated form Vickers based on Banac being the original source. None of the authors discuss the matter in details, they just make a short statement (Banac original and Vickers copying him) and "the original" Banac does not show where did he get such info, while in the same time google hits and the other authors (who practically give explicit details and make a short biography of Hasan Prishtina (Berisha)) show which is the consensus on the case.

"What is more, just because a quote is accurate and verifiably attributed to a particular source does not mean that the quote must necessarily be included in an article" See Sourcing and attributtion and remember that "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources". Bring the exceptional sources forward and we will move forward. Up to then it is WP:Fringe is out of this article. Aigest (talk) 19:10, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

(unindent)The version of Banac that mentions the Siskovic surname is the Serbo-Croat one, while in the English version of the work it is ommitted.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 19:28, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

It is clear that this Sickovic clan or feudal house (so powerful and famous clan that gets just one google hit) is something of a fancy tale. Incorrect. Šišković family, of course, existed. They were from Vučitrn, birthplace of Hasan. Here are some of members:

1. Zejnul-bey Šišković - "From around Vučitrn only six bajraks of thirty villages refused to continue their support to the rebels. They were offended by Zejnul-bey Šišković who transported 300 rifles from Serbia and wanted to charge those rifles 2 lires each." (translated) - Dokumenti o spoljnoj politici Kraljevine Srbije: sv. 2 15, Vladimir Dedijer, Života Anić Serbian Academy of Science and Arts 1954
2. same person is mentioned here: (Isa Boletini chased away workers.... and forbid them .... in the name of Zejnullah-bey Šišković) - Proceedings in history, Matica Srpska 1989
3. Sulejman Šišković from Vučitrn was agha of 25 serbian families - Društvene i ekonomske prilike kosovskih srba u XIX i početkom XX veka, Đorđe Mikić, Serbian Academy of Science and Arts 1988
4. The same source presents information that Šišković owned significant land which was settled by Ottoman administration with Albanian refugees instead of some Cherkess. Šišković won the trial against Albanians who still refused to give him his allowance.
5. Selman-pasha Šišković The same source page 180 presents information about him being agha in Plemetina.
6. Haji Mehmet Šišković has the biggest and most beautifull house in Vučitrn. - Kosovo: opis zemlje i naroda, 1902 Branislav Nušić, Matica Srpska
7. ... he was a peasant at Šiškovićs from Vučitrn...- Srpski etnografski zbornik, 1965, Serbian Academy of Science and Arts
8. "A dispute arose over a piece of land in Ba- bin Most between Sulejman Beg SiSkovic of Vucitrn, who had a deed to the land, and Albanian settlers from Serbia whom the Turkish authorities had settled there after the Serbo-Turkish war," - Srbija i Albanci u XIX i početkom XX veka, Vladimir Stojančević
9. Zejnul-agha Šišković from Vučitrn has been respected by Arbanas from Kosovo Vilayet - Istorijski časopis

Šišković famly was even commemorated in literature:

1. један Шишковић у Вучитрну, који држи лире по одајама као ншеницу по амбарима (Šišković from Vučitrn keeps lira in his granary like they are grain. - Pripovetke (Short stories) by Grigorije Božović
2. Аге, а особито хануме, јако су је пазили и просто се грабили ко ће је пре узети, почињући од богатих Шишковића па све до крволочних... (Aghas and especially hanumas took very good care about her because lot of people competed to take her starting from rich Šiškovićs to bloodthirsty...) - Delo, Том 57, published in 1910

Works of Vickers and Banac were regularly published in 1998 and 1988. Unless you can provide reliable sources written by reputable scholars who refuted their claim don't remove cited addition of others.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:24, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Şişkoviç

Şişko is the Turkish word for "fat". This fringe theory about the "fat guy's son" clan, is not generally accepted, except by Vickers, via Banac. On the other side, the Berisha clan, both Muslim and Christians needs no further elucidation. Majuru (talk) 18:57, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Nobody denied that Hasan was member of Šiškovćs during last 24 years, since Ivo Banac published it. On the contrary, it was even supported by Miranda Vicker. This assertion is carefully attributed to Ivo Banac and Miranda Vickers so please don't delete it.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:14, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Here is a source published in 1987 (before Ivo Banac) which confirms that Hasan was Šišković: East Central European society and the Balkan wars by Béla K. Király, Dimitrije Djordjevíc, Brooklyn College. Program on Society in Change: "The committee was headed by Hasan-Prishtina from the well-known feudal house of Siskovic in VuSitrn,".--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:25, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

The book is a collection of essays and each one is written by a different author; Kiraly and Djordjevic were the editors of the work. You quoted the translation of an essay titled The Albanians and Serbia during the Balkan Wars by Serbian author Djordje Mikic [2]. Of course later Mikic would become a member of the Serbian nationalist SDS (Karadzic etc.) and a member of its Banja Luka council[3] i.e not RS. So you have Banac's Yugoslav version as a source as the English version omits that part about the alleged Siskovic clan.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 22:02, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Đorđe Mikić exists. His opinion exists also. He is professor of history in Banja Luka and he supported the assertion that Hasan belonged to Šišković family, like Ivo Banac and Miranda Vickers supported it also. That opinion was presented at scientific conference held in 1984 (before SDS was founded) and included in conference material by Béla K. Király and Dimitrije Djordjevíc and distributed by Columbia University Press. Many authors were members of political parties. That does not necessary affect their reliability. If you think he is not reliable source you are free to go to RSN.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:37, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

I already presented opinion of another historian, Jovan Hadži Vasiljević, who also direcly supported Hasan Šišković assertion. His text corresponds with other sources which claim that family of Hasan Prishtina came from Poljanice. He also had blood-relatives there - Veljić brothers. Муслимани наше крви у Јужној Србији" written by Јован Хаџи Васиљевић says "У селу Пољанцу постоје браћа Вељићи, крвни сродник им је Хасан бег Вучитрнац, Шишковић." I will translate it for you: Veljić brothers from Poljance are related to Hasan-bey of Vučitrn, Šišković.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:50, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

The Siskovic clan, appears to be an invention of Hadzivasilievic, an unreliable author: "Hasan beg Vučitrnac, Šišković." [4] Majuru (talk) 15:18, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

This is a second attempt to deny existence of the Šišković family. First Aigest claimed that they are "something of a fancy tale" and now Majuru claims that they are invented by Hadzivasilievic. There are works of four historians which directly support the assertion about Hasan being member of Šišković. Additionally I presented about a dozen other sources which prove that Šiškovićs did exist, even commemorated in literature works. Please don't deny it anymore.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:33, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Guidance!

By now, you've probably noticed that I have set the article to "full protection". This is because edit wars are a pain and an annoyance.

As I understand it, part of the problem here is that different sources say different things about Mr Prishtina, and therefore different editors are in dispute is to which of those sources are reliable (because some of those sources contradict each other).

I suggest that, rather than choosing one source to the exclusion of another, both statements be listed.

Instead of either "Prishtina was secretly a leprechaun (ref: "Leprechauns in Politics", Hayamoto Fakename, 1985) or "Prishtina was secretly a unicorn (ref: Unicorns of Albania, Dimitrios Pseudonym, 1986)", we say "Fakename (1985) describes Prishtina as being a secret leprechaun; however, Pseudonym (1986) states that he was a unicorn".

We do not indicate which of two conflicting sources is more reliable or less reliable. We show them both. This is not an issue of undue weight on fringe opinions, is it? DS (talk) 16:36, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

• As I understand it, part of the problem here is that different sources say different things about Mr Prishtina, and therefore different editors are in dispute is to which of those sources are reliable (because some of those sources contradict each other). - Incorrect. There are no contradicting sources. Clan names aren't the same as family names. If Mr. Prishtina's last name was Berisha and if he changed it later to Prishtina, it does not mean that he did not belong to Šiškovićs.
• This is not an issue of undue weight on fringe opinions, is it? No. Taking in consideration that some editors:
  • denied the reliability of sources written by four 20th and 21th century historians who regularly published their works (one was even included in material from scientific conference selected and edited by two other modern historians) - disputing the reliability of apparently good sources. Note: nobody presented any source which contradicts to the assertion that Hasan belonged to Šiškovićs although such claims were regularly published in 1924, 1987, 1988 and 1998.
  • deleted the cited addition of other users diff, diff, diff, diff.
  • Added dubious tag after assertion which was carefully attributed to Ivo Banac and Miranda Vickers (nobody disputed they asserted that). diff
  • Even denied the very existence of the Šiškovićs (...fancy tale... and ... an invention...) ignoring the works of four modern historians which directly support the assertion about Hasan being member of Šiškovićs and ignoring about a dozen other sources which prove that Šiškovićs did exist, even being commemorated in literature works .

I think that you made mistake when you estimated that the real problem here are contradicting sources (there are no sources that contradicts each other). The real problem is quite obvious and you failed to properly deal with it. Instead you dealt with its consequences which can only conceal the real problem. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:58, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Don't care, I'm not involved with the content here, sort it out among yourselves. "The majority of sources say that he was of Clan X; however, there is also a minority view: that he was of Clan Y." Do I have to shut you two in a meat freezer for 24 hours so that you have to share body heat to survive? DS (talk) 20:19, 19 April 2012 (UTC)