Talk:Hachalu Hundessa

Mentioning of ethnicity in bio

Hello Revirvlkodlaku @Revirvlkodlaku:. Please take a look at MOS:ETHNICITY. According to it, since his ethnicity and ethnic region is solely what made him notable, it is necessary to provide that context into describing what made him notable. It could even be argued, according to the MOS:NATIONALITY, as per the example of Wilma Mankiller, that "Ethiopian" should be omitted as it was not what made him notable but rather him making Oromo music and fighting for the rights of the Oromo people that his notability came from.

Hi LeenchaOromia, what you say about MOS:Ethnicity is correct, but can you clearly demonstrate that his notability was based more on his ethnicity than on other factors, such as his music in a general sense? Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 04:40, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

@Revirvlkodlaku @Revirvlkodlaku: Thanks for the prompt reply. I think his wiki page in and of itself demonstrates that. But to directly point it out, you ask why "other factors, such as music in a general sense" couldn't have been the reason for his notability. He wasn't making music for a general audience quite at all, but rather solely for the Oromo audience. His notability doesn't come from a general audience, or even a general Ethiopian audience, but rather solely from his Oromo audience and his Oromian sub-nationality. He was not notable anywhere else outside of the Oromia region and the Oromo demographic. His music was not simply music in his native Oromo language (a language that is not intelligible by the general Ethiopian demographic) but music about Oromo rights, Oromo pride, Oromo history and Oromo culture. His wiki page points this out in several examples but even those don't fully explain it.

If yet still there is a case to argue only nationality is necessary and any additional descriptors not, the MOS guideline puts country or region as equal candidates for notability, and in this case based on the arguments I provided above, since his notability comes from his ethnic region of Oromia, or at very least it comes very much more from his ethnic region of Oromia in comparison to Ethiopian (i.e. there are more arguments to say notability comes from Oromia Region rather than Ethiopian), mentioning of his Oromian/Oromo sub-nationality should trump mentioning of Ethiopian.

I hope I addressed your concerns. LeenchaOromia (talk) 07:01, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

@LeenchaOromia, I think the points you make are valid, and yet I'm finding it difficult to be convinced, probably because I think it's uncommon to specify a person's ethnicity in such a prominent way on Wikipedia, where nationality generally takes precedence. I wonder, is it not sufficient that, as you point out, the Oromo-focused content of his music is sufficiently covered within the article, so that it need not be highlighted in the lead paragraph? Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 15:07, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Reducing emphasis on different ethnic groups involved in conflict

Some editors have made it a point of emphasizing ethnic differences between the various actors involved in Hundessa's death and its aftermath. I suggest avoiding this, especially as Ethiopia is a multi-ethnic nation where these differences often lead to acrimony and even conflict. One editor in particular has felt the need to repeatedly mention the ethnicity of Hundessa's widow, which I feel is unnecessary and hasn't been shown to be relevant to the singer's death or the ensuing conflict. I have removed this mention several times and tried to bring up the topic with the editor in question, to no avail. Request feedback on this issue. werewolf (talk) 23:46, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Role of social networks

And hate speech:

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/xg897a/hate-speech-on-facebook-is-pushing-ethiopia-dangerously-close-to-a-genocide

Let us mention it. Zezen (talk) 16:40, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• HachaluHundessa2019.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:09, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

March 2022 edit dispute

Hello The Supermind, you seem to be engaged in an edit war with me on this article. Your justification is that a revert without explanation isn't acceptable. I did provide an explanation: your edits did not improve the article. Let me provide a more thorough explanation here: 1. Image caption doesn't require more detail than last name and year. 2. For birth place, city and country are sufficient. 3. No need to link country when the city is linked; this constitutes "overlinking". Next time, if you disagree with someone's revert, do not edit war but instead, discuss on talk page. Thank you. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 19:44, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

@Revirvlkodlaku: Why inserting birth place and country only important? If it is important, I can add the exact birth date with its location of province, municipality or region that does not disallowed in Wikipedia's policy. Provinces of Ethiopia are a part of birth place and they existed until in 1996, when a new government under Ethiopian People's Revolutionary Democratic Front (EPRDF) reshuffle with regions. Please clarify your rationale argument for this issue. I don't want personally to get involved in the war, but trying to accurate where he was born with exact location of administrative unit.The Supermind (talk) 20:29, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

The Supermind, I'm not sure what the reasoning process is behind it, but I know it's convention. You can probably find it in the MOS. You can still add all the details in the article, both in the lead or the early life section, but it's conventionally not added to the infobox, as far as I know. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 17:23, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

There is no such thing as an "Ethiopian Name"

I am picking up from the following series of editing reverts notes starting here [1] and ending here [2]

First of all @Revirvlkodlaku you say "clearly because a wiki article for it exists, then it exists". Do you realize that anyone can make any new article? That is no justification for the validity or existence of a concept.

Now to address your final revert, as I mentioned in the edit you initially reverted, the Ethiopian name page is simply a description of a patronymic naming system. There is nothing specifically "Ethiopian" about it. As a matter of fact, this same insight was noticed and the deletion/merging of that article into the patronymic article was brought up here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Patronymic#Merger_proposal

Beyond that, there is no such thing as an "Ethiopian name". There is no name that is Ethiopian in origin or no "Ethiopian" language. There are *Amharic* names or *Oromo* names. But Hachalu's name is an Oromo name of the Oromo language. Hence why I replaced "Ethiopian name" with "Oromo name". Even if you want to say "well, the Oromo language hail's from Ethiopia", that is not solely true either. Oromo's are also native to Kenya. The name and the Oromo language does not belong to Ethiopia. It's solely Oromo. But even that argument is not valid either as Ethiopia is simply a nationality. It is not a definer of language (where names come from). It is like trying to say somebody has an "American" name or "Canadian" name.

I do not understand your persistence in consistently debating topics you are unfamiliar regarding while simultaneously making accusations that I am being "disruptive" or making "spurious claims" or that I'm not acting in good faith while also accusing me of engaging in an edit war with you because I made one justified revert to a revert you made of my edit, where you clearly ignored my comments and reasoning for my edits and reverted anyway. And did so twice. That is in fact actually defined as "disruptive editing" as quoted here: "repeatedly disregards other editors' explanations for their edits." LeenchaOromia (talk) 06:45, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Hello @LeenchaOromia, thank you for discussing instead of reverting. I'll start by pointing out that we are far more likely to reach a consensus if we maintain a civil discussion rather than slinging accusations and being rude to each other. I'll make two points here, one regarding edit warring, the other regarding the reverts themselves:

In my understanding of a Wikipedia edit war, once you have been reverted by a user, you are not to revert back, as doing so constitutes the start of an edit war. This is the basis of my accusation. You may feel that your revert was justified if you think my initial revert was mistaken or simply wrong, but what is at stake here is a contentious issue, so it is preferable to discuss. I'm glad you have agreed to do so.

As for Ethiopian names, you are correct in pointing out that I am no expert on the topic, but once again, for a number of reasons, the subject of ethnicity in Ethiopia, and specifically, Hachalu's ethnicity and ethno-political affiliations are fraught, and as you have yourself experienced here in the past, attempts to draw attention to Hachalu's Oromo origins have been discouraged. My feeling on the topic is that the effort is unnecessarily polarizing, and this is why I side with those who have encouraged the emphasis to be placed on his Ethiopian nationality, in which case, his name is, in fact, Ethiopian. You may certainly contest the validity of such a concept, but in that case, the debate does not belong here but rather on the Ethiopian names page. As far as I'm concerned, while that page exists, it is the superior option for explaining Hachalu's name, over the generic Oromo people that you have tried to substitute it with.

As a side note, it might not hurt for you to seek a third opinion on this topic should you feel that my argument is not convincing. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 14:17, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

@[[User:Revirvlkodlaku|Revirvlkodlaku] I don't understand why you are saying "we" as if I was taking part in slinging accusations at you. That was you that was doing that.

If that is the basis of your claim for initiating an edit war then you too shouldn't have reverted back but instead open a talk to discuss it like I have. But again, I only reverted because you literally ignored my comment and explanations for why I made that edit and literally mistook my intention for the edit instead of simply reading my edit reasoning. Hence it seemed like an obvious mistake on your part and why I reverted. I have no intention or interest in warring as I have showed in the past with you where I opened the last discussion we had below and even gave up trying to convince you of my points and making my edits despite literally using wiki guidelines for justification. In no way do I, or at least did I view that edit that I made as being contentious. Rather I viewed it quite obvious. But now that you presented the fact that you still disagree, I do not mind discussing this again as long as you are actually interested in making Wikipedia as factual as possible and not simply to project your own personal views.

Again, please take careful note of what I am saying and what I have already said. I repeatedly find myself needing to repeat myself to you and addressing points you make that I already addressed. This instance is not about drawing attention to Hachalu's ethnicity. This is about making a factual statement and removing a misleading one. So to repeat again, names does not come from nationalities. There is no such thing as an "American" name despite people having an American nationality. I said this already. There are english names or german names or amharic names or oromo. But there is literally no such thing as an "American" name or "Canadian" name or an "Ethiopian" name because all those are describers of nationality not language/name. Your nationality does not define the origin of your name. I am an American by nationality but my name is still Oromo and an Oromo name. So the statement "Ethiopian name" is a categorically confusing and misleading statement. As confusing as saying an "American name".

Saying "As far as I'm concerned, while that page exists, it is the superior option for explaining Hachalu's name" is not a justification for an edit. And even then, I literally just linked to you a debate that was already had for the removal/merging of that link and even supported by an Administrator. Again, please just carefully read what I am saying. I repeatedly am repeating the same exact things to you.

Now this is again irrelevant to the point I am making because as I said this isn't about drawing attention to his ethnicity but making the most factually correct statement, but I have only experienced discouragement regarding Hachalu's ethnicity by you. You are making it seem like I encountered a consensus of discouragement by others. But again for the 3rd time now, this topic is not about that. So I do not want to address that here. LeenchaOromia (talk) 19:10, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

@LeenchaOromia I suppose you make a fair point. I admit that I'm a little trigger-happy when it comes to topics that are politically or ethnically contentious, as there are many bad actors on Wikipedia who wish to skew facts in favour of their preferred language/ethnicity. I occasionally deal with such instances, and I assumed you were one of those actors, partly due to our previous disagreement and the fact that a cursory glance at your recent contributions demonstrates a bias towards Oromo topics, which is a telltale sign of the the aforementioned behaviour. Again, it does seem that your point is valid, so thank you for explaining. I will go ahead and reinstate your edit. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 02:18, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

@LeenchaOromia I'm surprised to note that you haven't seen fit to acknowledge my retreat and admission of error on this topic in any manner. If you with to maintain good relations with other editors, and in order to encourage good behaviour, it's important that you reinforce it when it occurs, and the best way to do that is not to ignore when someone has made a concession to you. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 21:18, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

can you direct me to a wiki guideline that requires or even encourages acknowledgements of concessions. There were several points in your previous statement that I still wanted to address that I don't find it to be a priority to dedicate the time to do so. Hence why I didn't respond yet.

But I don't know of any guidelines stating acknowledgements of concessions is expected. Please direct me to one if I am ignorant of such a requirement LeenchaOromia (talk) 01:51, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Sadly, Wikipedia doesn't offer guidelines on how to be a decent, respectful human being. You'll have to research that on your own. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 03:09, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

WP:Etiquette LeenchaOromia (talk) 03:47, 20 January 2023 (UTC)