Talk:Guevarism

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Added political viewpoints section[edit]

copied from Che Guevara:

The next few paragraphs were copied from the Che Guevara talk page.

This article was currently almost entirely chronological, and didn't provide a way to quickly grasp what Che's opinions and philosophy were. There were various other main articles about his "legacy" and similar, but these only peripherally discuss his own opinions. Therefore, I added an atemporal (by which I mean, not that items within this section should not report the dates at which evidence for Che holding the various viewpoints; they should report these dates, although they don't right now) "political viewpoints section", and added some information on Che's views on racism and homosexuality. Clearly, there is room for inclusion there on many other types of political issues, and I'd like to encourage their addition. Bayle Shanks (talk) 07:27, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bayle Shanks, I have reverted your large additions of a new "political viewpoint" section with the WP:Undue and WP:POVFORK sub-sections of "imprisonment of dissidents", "due process" and "homosexuality". To summarize the totality of Guevara's "political views" (via WP:OR) to one cherry picked quote on racism, homophobia, and imprisonment of dissidents without due process, is also WP:POV. Guevara spoke extensively on dozens of topics including imperialism, capitalism, Marxism, socialism, dependency theory, industrialization, colonialism, neo-colonialism, monopolies, the theory of value, means of production, voluntary labor, international finance, the Vietnam war, guerrilla warfare, foco, dictatorships, race relations, gender equality, importance of literacy etc. Thus, not only do I believe that a section with your four criticisms utilizing out of context quotes is misleading - but per WP:Summary, it would necessitate a full inquiry into all of his views, which would be better suited possibly for the article on Guevarism or inter-spliced into relevant portions of the current article.   Redthoreau -- (talk) 20:33, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was not aware that there was an article Guevarism, I feel it should be more prominently linked from the main page. I have linked to it and moved the text I had added here to the Talk page over there, copying this. Bayle Shanks (talk) 11:14, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion[edit]

I propose this be merged with Focoism or deleted entirely. "Guevarism" is not a proper ideology or anything, just an extension of Marxism-Leninism, the only thing novel about this would be Guevara's focoist ideas.

Che Guevara and racism

Main article: Che Guevara and racism

Homosexuality

It has been alleged that Guevara "considered homosexuals to be sick people who must give way to the politically healthy 'new man' made by communist Cuba."[1]

A quote from The Motorcycle Diaries is relevant: "The episode upset us a little because the poor man, apart from being homosexual and a first-rate bore, had been very nice to us, giving us 10 soles each".

Due process

By 1959, Guevara had become a "hardened" man, who had no qualms about the death penalty or summary and collective trials[citation needed]. It has been claimed[2] that Guevara said, "To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary. These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate".

Guevara "played a key role in inaugurating a tradition of arbitrary administrative, non-judicial detentions"[3].

Imprisonment of dissidents

Guevara had a "principal role in setting up Cuba's first labor camp" in Guanahacabibes in 1960-61, which "confined people who had committed no crime punishable by law"[4]. Guevara said:

"[We] only send to Guanahacabibes those doubtful cases where we are not sure people should go to jail. I believe that people who should go to jail should go to jail anyway. Whether long-standing militants or whatever, they should go to jail. We send to Guanahacabibes those people who should not go to jail, people who have committed crimes against revolutionary morals, to a greater or lesser degree, along with simultaneous sanctions like being deprived of their posts, and in other cases not those sanctions, but rather to be reeducated through labor. It is hard labor, not brute labor, rather the working conditions are harsh but they are not brutal..."[5]

"... To summarize the totality of Guevara's "political views" (via WP:OR) to one cherry picked quote on racism, homophobia, and imprisonment of dissidents without due process, is also WP:POV. Guevara spoke extensively on dozens of topics including imperialism, capitalism, Marxism, socialism, dependency theory, industrialization, colonialism, neo-colonialism, monopolies, the theory of value, means of production, voluntary labor, international finance, the Vietnam war, guerrilla warfare, foco, dictatorships, race relations, gender equality, importance of literacy etc. Thus, not only do I believe that a section with your four criticisms utilizing out of context quotes is misleading - but per WP:Summary, it would necessitate a full inquiry into all of his views, which would be better suited possibly for the article on Guevarism or inter-spliced into relevant portions of the current article."   Redthoreau -- (talk) 20:33, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I will be unable to complete the massive project of which you speak; however, I hope that at some point the work I did in producing the above content will be included. As noted above, I think it's important that there is a place somewhere on this site with a topically-organized presentation of Guevara's views, so I don't think it should be inter-spliced into the main article, which is chronological. My opinion is that Wikipedia must grow incrementally, with many people contributing one after another, and it's no use in waiting until a comprehensive analysis of some historical figure's views are available before posting any of it. On the other hand, I agree that at the very beginning of such an analysis, the content included can be so very sparse so as to be misleading. So, whenever the analysis on this page is enough so that the content I added (i.e. that which is now just above of this) no longer seems to mislead by omission, please add it in. Please don't remove it from this page until then. Thanks, Bayle Shanks (talk) 11:28, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Bayle, I agree with the TP "staging area" until the respective content can either be incorporated into the main Che article or be included with the necessary additional information as to prevent it from being WP:Undue and thus violating WP:NPOV. Obviously such topics would additionally require the inclusion of reliable biographers analysis, and not merely constitute a list of quotes whose possible conclusions could be WP:OR.   Redthoreau -- (talk) 02:17, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, thanks. Quoting biographers' summaries sounds like a good idea, too. Bayle Shanks (talk) 00:16, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Mea Cuba, Guillermo Cabrera Infante, Farrar Strauss Giroux, 1994, p. 71, via http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0506/S00304.htm
  2. ^ http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0506/S00304.htm
  3. ^ Farber, "The Resurrection of Che Guevara," New Politics, Summer 1998, http://ww3.wpunj.edu/~newpol/issue25/farber25.htm
  4. ^ Farber, "The Resurrection of Che Guevara," New Politics, Summer 1998, http://ww3.wpunj.edu/~newpol/issue25/farber25.htm
  5. ^ Jorge G. Castañeda, Companero. The Life and Death of Che Guevara, New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1997, Jon Lee Anderson, Che Guevara. A Revolutionary Life, New York: Grove Press, 1997, Paco Ignacio Taibo II, Guevara. Also Known as Che, New York: St. Martin's Press, 1997, p.178, via Farber, "The Resurrection of Che Guevara," New Politics, Summer 1998, http://ww3.wpunj.edu/~newpol/issue25/farber25.htm

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On criticisms[edit]

BunnyyHop why did you remove such the section in criticisms? The torture and other things did occur, it is not correct for you to be removing it. Vallee01 (talk) 18:16, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Guevarism as also been criticized for purges, torture and massacres enacted on political dissidents. In Cuba anarchists and other leftist revolutionaries were often massacred after the revolution.[7] This oppression and inability for anarchists to organize into an effective resistance movement in Cuba would lead to the development of anarchism without adjectives, by Cuban exiles.[8]" The first citation is from a blog who is not verifiable. The second is from an author who died in the 20s - how exactly would that be possible? Stop trolling. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BunnyyHop (talk • contribs) 19:12, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You appear to not be able to properly cite things or hyperlink. You're current statement can be be boiled down into nothing. Please don't make personal attacks, thanks. Vallee01 (talk) 20:04, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The book does not mention dictatorship, as it's indicated by the link I sent on the revert. Please, no original research. BunnyyHop (talk) 13:36, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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