Talk:Gregor MacGregor/GA1

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Reviewer: Maile66 (talk · contribs) 16:08, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]


@Cliftonian: I'm taking this on, and it stands out as the longest article I've reviewed. Might take a while. But I've been reading this article off and on for days, and I'm fascinated by the subject. — Maile (talk) 16:16, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much Maile. I'm glad you like it! Take as much time as you need, I hope you enjoy it. —  Cliftonian (talk)  16:17, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Cliftonian: I've ordered the Sinclair book from my local library, so we have lots of time on this. I notice you're doing some editing right now. One thing I do notice, and have noted below, is that while the images have captions, they all need ALT text (link below) for visually impaired readers who use screen readers. — Maile (talk) 00:23, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

REVIEW

Lead

  • "about 270 emigrated" - Refer to question below under Disappointment
  • "MacGregor's Poyais scheme has been called "the most audacious fraud in history" and "the greatest confidence trick of all time"." - Refer to attribution question below under Cazique of Poyais

Early life

Family and childhood

Close paraphrasing issues:

  • Article: "Gregor MacGregor was born on Christmas Eve 1786 at his family's ancestral home of Glengyle at the northern end of Loch Katrine in Stirlingshire"
  • Source: "He was born on Christmas Eve 1786 at the old MacGregor House of Glengyle at the northern end of Loch Katrine in Stirlingshire"
  • I don't have a lot of room to manoeuvre on this one, but I've changed "at the northern end" to "north of". "Gregor MacGregor was born on Christmas Eve 1786 at his family's ancestral home of Glengyle, north of Loch Katrine in Stirlingshire, Scotland". —  Cliftonian (talk)  09:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
British Army
  • File:George Watson Gregor MacGregor.jpg - needs WP:ALT, per WP:CAP

Close paraphrasing issue:

  • Article: "MacGregor's regiment landed at Lisbon on 15 July, about three months into the campaign"
  • Source: "the 57th Foot landed at Lisbon on 15 July, almost three months after the beginning of the campaign"
  • Have rejigged to "MacGregor's regiment disembarked at Lisbon about three months into the campaign, on 15 July." —  Cliftonian (talk)  09:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Edinburgh to Caracas

Close paraphrasing issues:

  • Article: In December 1811, Maria MacGregor died
  • Source: In December 1811, Maria MacGregor died
  • I'm not sure there's a way to rephrase this without using some WP:EUPHEMISM for "died" such as "passed away". Unless it would simply be sufficient to swap around to "Maria MacGregor died in December 1811"? —  Cliftonian (talk)  09:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Checked Agree. There's not enough info in the book to expand or reword it. — Maile (talk) 14:46, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Article: "General Francisco de Miranda had been lionised in London's highest circles"
  • Source: "General Miranda, lionised in the highest social and political circles of the capital"
  • Changed to "General Francisco de Miranda had been feted in London society during his recent visit" —  Cliftonian (talk)  09:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What is this?

  • "After a comfortable sojourn in Kingston, he sailed for Venezuela and disembarked in the port of La Guaira in April 1812" The source says Trinidad and does not mention La Guaira.

South America

Venezuela, under Miranda
  • File:Josefa MacGregor.jpg - needs WP:ALT, per WP:CAP
  • "he was received with great enthusiasm" Attribution not supported by the source.
  • We have on page 133 "it must have seemed like a blessing when the veteran British officer Sir Gregor MacGregor presented himself at headquarters and applied for a command" and "MacGregor's boldness in going straight to the Commander-in-Chief—not to mention the gloss with which he no doubt varnished his military background—was rewarded with the rank of colonel". Hmmm. I think you're right "great enthusiasm" may be a bit much. I've reworded to "received with alacrity". —  Cliftonian (talk)  19:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
New Granada; defence of Cartagena
  • File:Sunset-cartagena-tower-Igvir.jpg - needs WP:ALT, per WP:CAP
  • I don't see "the formidable Castillo San Felipe de Barajas" by name in the source. Did I just miss it somewhere?
  • fixed. I'd presumed this was the fortress in question as it seems to be the one protecting the city, but you are right the source does not say so, so that was wrong of me. I've taken it out. —  Cliftonian (talk)  21:26, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Close paraphrasing issue:

  • Article:"...a native regiment destroyed local hamlets, roads and crops..."
  • Source: "MacGregor was given command of a native regiment and ordered to destroy crops, roads and villages."
  • Redrawn to "at the head of native troops destroyed hamlets, local infrastructure and produce" —  Cliftonian (talk)  09:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Venezuela, under Bolívar

Close paraphrasing issue:

  • Article: "Late on 27 July MacGregor's route east was blocked by a large royalist force at Chaguaramas, south of Caracas and roughly a third of the distance to Barcelona."
  • Source:"...his route blocked by a large Spanish force...roughly a third of the distance between Choroni and Barcelona."
  • I've changed to "MacGregor's way east was obstructed by a royalist force at Chaguaramas, south of Caracas and about a third of the distance to Barcelona" —  Cliftonian (talk)  09:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Question:

  • "MacGregor's march to Barcelona would remain prominent in the South American revolutionary narrative for decades" You reference pp. 167–170 of the Sinclair book. I don't exactly find anything that specifies decades, but are you basing this on Rafter's comment, "...which even all his subsequent errors have not obliterated from the memory of the South Americans."?
  • I was basing that more on the fact that when he came back to Venezuela 20 years later they still remembered it, and when he died there 30 years later it seems to have been the main thing they celebrated him for. Nevertheless I've substituted "decades" for the perhaps less contentious "years". —  Cliftonian (talk)  09:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Florida republic; Amelia Island affair
  • Location map Florida - needs WP:ALT, per WP:CAP
  • "scripts" - Wikilnk it to Scrip

Close paraphrasing issue:

  • Article: "paid first in "Amelia dollars" he had printed, then later not at all—became increasingly mutinous.[53]"
  • Source:"paid first in worthless Amelia dollars and later not at all, the army of independent Amelia Island became increasingly mutinous."
  • I've changed to "Discipline among MacGregor's troops—paid first in "Amelia dollars" he had printed, then later not at all—disintegrated." —  Cliftonian (talk)  09:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Porto Bello
  • File:Batería de Santiago, Portobelo - Flickr - andrea1victoria (2).jpg - needs WP:ALT, per WP:CAP
  • "but MacGregor does not seem to have made much in the way of plans to continue the campaign" - How about "did not make much..."?
Rio de la Hacha

Close paraphrasing issue:

  • Article: "500 officers and men waiting for him in Aux Cayes"
  • Source: "500 officers and men waiting for him at Aux Cayes"
  • Redrawn to "Waiting for him in Aux Cayes were 500 officers and enlisted men" —  Cliftonian (talk)  09:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Close paraphrasing issue:

  • Article: "had taken refuge in a slave's hut"
  • Source: "had taken refuge in the hut of a black slave."
  • Changed to "had sought sanctuary in a slave's hut" —  Cliftonian (talk)  09:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Poyais scheme

Cazique of Poyais
  • Location map Middle America - needs WP:ALT, per WP:CAP

Quoted attributions - questionable because of where they came from; both are there to get people to read the book, but don't really offer an historical comparison of anything else. Seems to me like unsubstantiated WP:PEA more for publicity on the book rather than anything factual.

  • "the most audacious fraud in history" is the subtitle of the Sinclair book
  • "the greatest confidence trick of all time" is from the Economist review of the book
  • I'm afraid that I don't really agree here. The Economist review does compare MacGregor's fraud to other scams:
"It is true that more recent scams have raised more. Bernie Madoff, a New York-based fraudster caught out in 2008 ran a scheme 20 times bigger, at $65 billion. In cash terms alone Mr Madoff trumps MacGregor. But fraud is about creating false confidence, and making people believe in something that does not exist. For some, like Mr Madoff, it is the belief in the trickster’s shamanic stock-picking skills. For others, like Charles Ponzi, it is a fail-safe mathematical scheme. MacGregor was far more ambitious: he invented an entire country."
  • Might an appropriate compromise be to substitute the quotes for something along the lines of "MacGregor's Poyais scheme has been called one of the most brazen confidence tricks in history", with a footnote afterwards briefly outlining the Economist's comparison of MacGregor to Madoff and Ponzi? —  Cliftonian (talk)  09:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Checked Agree on the compromise, to eliminate later challenges to the assertion. What went through my mind was what I am more familiar with, that being Texas in the 18th and 19th centuries. Except Texas actually existed, the land swindles that went on there ultimately affected thousands upon thousands. And at least during the 19th century, it was so easy for flim-flam artists to claim royal European titles, or to invent their backgrounds. — Maile (talk) 14:56, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, I'll have you know I've got a tower for sale; the upkeep's such a strain on the purse we're having to sell it for scrap... —  Cliftonian (talk)  19:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Land of opportunity
  • File:View of the Port of Black River in the Territory of Poyais.png - needs WP:ALT, per WP:CAP

Close paraphrasing issue:

  • Article: "a discounted purchase price of 80%. A deposit of 15% secured the certificate, with the remainder due over two instalments on 17 January and 14 February 1823"
  • Source: "The discounted purchase price was eighty, and a deposit of fifteen per cent secured the certificate, with the remainder due in two instalments on 17 January and 14 February 1823"
  • Redrawn to "a marked-down purchase price of 80%. The certificate could be acquired for 15%, with the rest due over two instalments on 17 January and 14 February 1823." —  Cliftonian (talk)  09:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Eager settlers
  • File:Bank of Poyais-1 Hard Dollar (1820s) SCAM.jpg - needs WP:ALT, per WP:CAP
Disappointment

Question on the number:

  • Article: "Of the about 270 who had sailed"
  • Source: "Of the about 250 or so settlers"
  • This was something that confused me about Sinclair's book—he says the Honduras Packet had 70 settlers aboard (p. 75) while the Kennersley Castle had almost 200 (somewhere in pp. 3–9, I don't have the book to hand this minute). I'd rounded this up to about 270 rather than 250 from the two figures given, but this isn't a big issue for me and I've brought it down to about 250. —  Cliftonian (talk)  09:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Close paraphrasing issue:

  • Article: "Fewer than 50 saw Britain again."
  • Source: "fewer than 50 ever saw Britain again"
  • Changed to "Fewer than 50 ever returned to Britain" —  Cliftonian (talk)  09:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Poyais scheme in France

Sourcing

  • Article: "MacGregor asserted that he himself had been defrauded, alleged..." sourced to Sinclair pp. 243,244 - I don't find this on those pages.
  • Ah yes, it's on pp. 247–248. Don't know what happened there. —  Cliftonian (talk)  19:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Article" "entered MacGregor's employ in March 1825" - add p. 259 to the source; it's the page with the date
1826 acquittal of fraud
  • File:Cour intérieure de la Force en 1840.jpg - needs WP:ALT, per WP:CAP

Close paraphrasing issue:

  • Article: "He apologised to his confederates for leaving them in this position for so long"
  • Source: "McGregor apologized for leaving his colleagues in this uncomfortable position for so long"
  • I've just trimmed this as it doesn't really add anything —  Cliftonian (talk)  09:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Quote

  • Article: charges against them must be "political in nature, arising from some sudden change in policy" - this is quoting Sinclair's writing, but is not clear about that.
  • I've changed to "He speculated to his confederates that the charges against them must be because of an abrupt change of policy by France" —  Cliftonian (talk)  09:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Return to Britain; lesser Poyais schemes
  • File:1827-07-02 Poyaisian-Stock-Certificate.jpg - needs WP:ALT, per WP:CAP

Return to Venezuela, and death

  • File:Joseph Thomas 1839 000.jpg - needs WP:ALT, per WP:CAP

Notes and references

Footnotes' (1-21)
  • All footnotes check out against their sourcing.
References
  • Appropriately formatted. Details in the above review, where applicable.
Newspapers, journals and letters
  • Credible sources
Online
  • Credible sources
Bibliography
  • Credible sources, appropriately formatted with ISBN or OCLC
  • @Cliftonian: I've gone through it all, comments above. I'm guessing you will be taking this to FA eventually. If you can take care of the above issues, I believe this otherwise is GA ready. If you disagree with what I noted, please feel free to add your comments. I believe the Sinclair book I got from the library is the exact same edition you got. The ISBN is the same, and other information seems to coincide with your usage of it. — Maile (talk) 21:55, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for this Maile—a very useful review. I'm in the office right now so I can't work through all of these right this moment but I will try to find the time this evening. I've already taken care of that issue regarding the port of arrival in Venezuela; it seems an IP added that a while ago and I hadn't noticed it. Cheers and I'll be back later. —  Cliftonian (talk)  09:41, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've worked my way through all the alt texts and I think I've got them all—I'm very tired so please excuse me but I will be back to resolve the rest tomorrow. Thanks for your patience and I hope you're well. All the best, cheers —  Cliftonian (talk)  21:26, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, I think I've dealt with most of the points above. I've made counter-suggestions on one or two, and marked others to come back to later as I don't have the book to hand this minute. Thanks again for the very helpful review. Cheers, —  Cliftonian (talk)  09:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for your patience. I think that's everything now. —  Cliftonian (talk)  19:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Everything passes. Thanks for your cooperation. — Maile (talk) 21:10, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Great! Thank you for reviewing, Maile! The article is much better for it. Cheers and have a great rest of the week. —  Cliftonian (talk)  21:16, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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