Talk:Grace O'Malley/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Untitled

This article needs to be expanded. There is considerable information about Granuaile in public records and in books that is not mentioned in this article. Her privateering and political maneuvering are barely mentioned at all. Also, sources need to be cited. I'm beginning to add cites to Anne Chambers' books, and will continue to expand the information over time. Aramink 22:01, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I am the author of the web page linked to externally. It's my own research and my own words. If someone wants to edit it into this wikipedia entry they have my full permission. (The poem is not mine though.) --jaymin 13:10, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Great work J. My only crib is that her name was'nt Grace, it was Grainne. Any chance of at least calling her that in the article? Fergananim

Checking references in Anne Chamber's book titled Graunuaile, p. 147 an engraving dated 1793 calls her "Grana Uile". Bingham refers to her as "Grainy O'Maly" (p. 141), "Mother Grany" (p. 121). Walsingham as "Grayn Ny Mayle", p. 100. Dury as "Granie ny Maille" (p. 88) and "Grany O'Mayle" (p. 87). Sidney as "Grany Imallye", p. 85. In her petition to Elizabeth in 1593 she calls herself "Grany ny Mally".

Historically there is no "right name". I think the English speaking audience is most familar with her as "Grace O'Malley" so, for clairity, I would suggest this is the appropriate nominative to use for this article.

--jaymin 20:45, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Aye, but all those people were English! And if you look at what they've written, its the phonetic reproduction of Grainne, not Grace. Which she does - above - herself too!

"Historically there is no "right name"." I must beg to differ! She was Gráinne ní Owen Dubhdara O Mháille. Grace O Malley is the English version of her proper name! In your introduction you introduce her as "Grace O' Malley (Irish Gráinne Ní Mháille, also known as Granuaile or Gráinne Mhaol)" when it should be the other way around. (i.e., "Gráinne Ní Mháille, also known as Granuaile or Gráinne Mhaol (English: Grace O Malley)."

In all honesty, I accecpt your nameing the article by her English name, but don't you think there is a case for changeing the first few sentences the way I outlined? Saying stuff like Historically there is no "right name" is something I would have expected from a 19th centuary English person; it sounds very ignoble in this day and age. Fergananim P.S: Happy birthday!

Just a note that as an English-speaking Canadian, I knew her as Gráinne ní Mháille, although there is also a chain of pubs named after her in Ontario. Sherurcij (talk) (bounties) 01:42, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I am irish and before reading this article i had never heard her referd to as "Grace O'Malley" only Gráinne Mhaol. Grace O'Malley leaves a sour tast in my mouth. i strongly suggest that the article title be changed to Gráinne Mhaol. would you change Attila the Hun to 'Timmy' because it is more familiar.

If it were more familiar to English speakers, then yes. Wikipedia has some established guidelines which apply here: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles) are both relevant. My reading of these says that since "Grace O'Malley" is more familiar to English speakers, that's where the article should be. It's no different from having the article on Charlemagne at Charlemagne rather than the more accurate Carolus Magnus. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:42, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Gráinne Ní Mhaile was her name in many accounts I've come across, though the most common reference I've seen is Gráinne Mhaol or the corruption/contraction Granuaile. You may argue that the name Grace O'Malley might be easier for some english speakers. Perhaps move the article to Gráinne Mhaol or Granuaile with Grace O'Malley redirecting? I think notability and distinctiveness plays a part in this too. Grace O'Malley is still a popular and likely name in this day and age in both Ireland and the USA but there is certainly only one Granuaile. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.161.6 (talk) 15:20, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


On the matter of the name, it is "Ní Mháille" when naming a woman, "Ó Máille" when naming a man, or the family in general. The prefix "Ní" ("daughter of") causes lenition (the "h" following the initial consonant) of the name following it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.226.230.36 (talk) 10:05, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Many Wrong Things

This article doesn't seem so accurate--at least, to me. I believe Grace O'Malley was three years older then Elizabeth I of England, but in "Later Life" it says they are approximately the same age. Interestingly, this same article lists Grace's birth year as 1530, and Elizabeth was born in 1533. It also says that Grace refused to bow to Elizabeth because Grace herself was a Queen (of WHAT? I've never heard of this, now!). I believe the actual reason was because Grace didn't recognize Elizabeth as her own Queen, and wished to show Elizabeth this. I also believe that, in the section where it speaks of her marriage to Donal O'Flaherty, it should list her daughter and two sons that resulted from this marriage (Margaret, Owen, and Murrough). I also believe it should be noted that she supported many Irish rebellions against the English, and, therefore, was known as 'The Mother of All Rebellions'.

Since there were no further comments I've corrected/added/deleted the article to fit the above statement.

It did say "approximately". 3 years isn't a big difference in one's early sixties.
She was queen of Mac William Íochtar Sheila1988 (talk) 14:47, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Editing

Because of a recent editor, I've re-written a paragraph so that it makes better sense, and am going to add an entire section about Grace's meeting with Elizabeth, since that was a very important part of her life.(This added by User:KEB on 15:21, 10 July 2006--File Éireann 19:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC))

- Being a novice of privateer, buccaneer and pirate history I turned to friends in the historic reenacting field for information. I'm surprised to find out through their research that Grainne (Grace) was less of a traditional pirate and more of a Mata Hari figure in her time and place. She bedded many a man in order to obtain information she could use for personal gain. It is too bad this information isn't widely available to readers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.91.172.36 (talk) 17:31, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
So, where did your reenacting chums get their info? Beastiepaws (talk) 23:47, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Jan Rogozinski

Since Rogozinski's Pirates! is so popular and so widely plagiarised by people running pirate sites, lots of people have picked up on his mistaken belief that Grainne was fictional. Should we perhaps, to avoid confusion, add a section mentioning this mistake and the likely reasons why Rogozinski made it?

Shaun Davey

There's no reference to the Grainuaile suite! I don't have the references to hand, so anybody in the meantime?--Shtove 22:21, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Early Life

The introduction lists her birth as "c.1530" whereas her birth year is affirmatively stated in this paragraph. I'm correcting it, since there are no sources listing a specific birth year for Grainne Ni Maille in anything I'm aware of. If I'm wrong, please change it back, and include a reference for the date. Aramink 14:24, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Citations

This article relies too heavily upon Ireland's Pirate Queen: The True Story of Grace O'Malley. This article should incorporate several other sources for more accuracy and a more balanced picture of Grace O'Malley.--Redroven (talk) 03:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Oró Sé do Bheatha 'Bhaile

'Oró Sé do Bheatha 'Bhaile' - the version you refer to is not, strictly speaking, a traditional song but is an existing pro-Jacobite melody/song from the 18th century with new words written by Padraig Pearse (poet - executed for his part in the 1916 rebellion). Gráinne Mhaol is mentioned in 2 verses but the bereaved widow/imprisoned lady you cite is possibly just a general symbol for Ireland. You can check this through discussions on the Mudcat folk music site. Seán Báite (talk) 23:12, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. The song is an example of aisling. It was used to stir up rebellion. I think the comment about it should be clarified, correlated, and moved furthur down, since it has little to no significance to Grace O'Malley's actual biography. 74.166.44.177 (talk) 03:02, 31 May 2011 (UTC)Aidget

For some reason, all mention of this song has been removed. I've added a brief mention under cultural impact, where I believe it belongs. --MadaRuadh (talk) 13:02, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Infobox

could whoever messed up the infobox please fix it. Adaircairell (talk) 14:09, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Descendants

Does Grainne have any confirmed descendants alive today?The article doesn't say whether she does or not.13:45, 17 April 2008 (UTC)jeanne (talk)

Numerous, including Queen Elizabeth II; her most famous recent descendant in Mayo was Jeremy Browne, 11th Marquess of Sligo. The lineage down to QE2 came from Elizabeth Hamilton, 1st Baroness Hamilton of Hameldon who was born in Roscommon.78.16.50.43 (talk) 08:12, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Primary vs. Secondary sources

I am concerned that, while Anne Chambers' book is no doubt a valuable source of information, it is nonetheless a secondary source. Out of 29 citations in the article, only four are from primary sources: that is, from papers from the time of Grace O'Malley or scholarly examinations of those papers. I presume Ms. Chambers' book has a bibliography and/or source information included; perhaps those should be referenced in the Grace O'Malley article.

Contradiction?

At the top of the article it seems to say Grainne was executed because she talked to QEI in latin. Then later on it says that when Grainne met QEI they had to talk in latin because Grainne couldnt speak english and QEI couldnt speak gaelige? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.206.1.17 (talk) 17:57, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

name spelling

Could we please be consistent with the spelling of her last name. The article says Mháille so I take it that is the proper spelling... o'malley would be best to use since it is most known, then again that may be wrong to use since it is the American version of the spelling. i just think we need to keep the name the same though out the entire article Jalex3 (talk) 01:28, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Ní Mháille = daughter of; Ó Máille = son of. It would be silly to put an Ó (never mind the non-existent in her day English 'O'Malley') after her name given the circumstances. This explains why she is know as Gráinne Ní Mháille to anybody who knows the cultural world from which she came. 109.76.243.175 (talk) 12:49, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
If she was the clan chief of the O'Malleys, then her Gaelic name as Chief of the Name would be "Ui Maille", which is closest to O'Malley.78.16.50.43 (talk) 08:16, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Page moved to Grace O'Malley which just happens to be the first name for this article when it was started in 2002. Vegaswikian (talk) 07:24, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Gráinne Ní Mháille → Granuaile — Common name per the naming convention. --RA (talk) 17:57, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

  • AjaxSmack is right, I think, to propose a move to 'Grace O'Malley' instead. Although anglicisation does not necessarily make a word or name more common in English-language sources (a stubborn misconception on Wikipedia, but that's for another discussion), I've got the impression that Grace O'Malley is more common than either 'Granuaile' or 'Gráinne Ní Mháille', or 'Gráinne O'Malley' (Mary O'Dowd's article in the ODNB). Cavila (talk) 09:00, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Agree with the others - move to the commonest name in English which is Grace O'Malley.--Kotniski (talk) 14:52, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Protest

Her name was not "Grace". -- Evertype·✆ 08:58, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Nor was Jesus' name "Jesus". But we title articles according to what their subjects are called in English nowadays.--Kotniski (talk) 11:54, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
Not here on Clew Bay in Co. Mayo where Gráinne actually lived. Today, in English, she's called Gráinne. -- Evertype·✆ 12:26, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
Including in major references like the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. The article should be at Gráinne O'Malley to reflect modern use. -- Evertype·✆ 12:28, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
Looking at Google Books, I'm getting less than 50 hits for "Grainne O'Malley" pirate published since 1990, compared with over 2,000 hits if I change the first name to "Grace". --Kotniski (talk) 17:59, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
Looking at Google Books as evidence is a dubious exercise. Google are good at many things, but producing good OCR of anything non-English they are not. So any searches you do have an inherent English bias. A reasonable consideration of reliable sources would be a better guide. ☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 09:41, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
This is the English Wikipedia. I don't think "an inherent English bias" is a bad thing. — Jon C.ॐ 09:55, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
That is the effect of one populist writer's work, and a recent musical. This person is correctly names in the Oxfrord Dictionary of National Biography. "Grace" is a laziness. Grace doesn't correspond to Gráinne as a name, either (as Séamas and James do). You will find more hits on "grandfather clock" than "longcase clock" too but the article is correctly named. Google (and google books) is NOT the main authority. The move from Ní Mháille to O'Malley was fine, but the move from Gráinne to Grace is not. If this does not satisfy you, then we need a proper review. I certainly do not think that four comments made above constitute broad consensus. I am opposed to keeping it at Grace O'Malley and dismayed that you moved it back, in fact. -- Evertype·✆ 21:14, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Well, the four comments are all the consensus we have - they certainly carry more weight than your one voice of opposition. Similarly all the many sources that call her Grace carry more weight than your cherry-picked single source (and a few others) that call her Grainne. But you're free to make a new proposal (WP:RM) if you're not satisfied with the current title. --Kotniski (talk) 07:13, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I think it might be helpful if someone could please add the phonetic pronunciation for the name "Grainne". Go raibh maith agaibh.Mannanan51 (talk) 04:33, 11 September 2012 (UTC)mannanan51

I totally agree, a pronunciation ought to be provided. See Help:IPA/Irish and Irish phonology.--Solomonfromfinland (talk) 17:17, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Larry Allen is hyperlinked to the wrong wikipedia article.

Under Cultural Impacts, in reference to the 1989 musical production by Tom Powers and Larry Allen, the Larry Allen you link to is the wrong Larry Allen. The Larry Allen who did the music for this production was not a star football player. 67.253.18.84 (talk) 02:51, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Granuaile daughter Margaret/Murrought

I have found some information in the Wexford Gentry Vol. 1 (Art Kavanagh and Rory Murphy) concerning Granuaile's daughter Margaret. According to Kavanagh and Murphy, Margaret (named Murrought here) married Sir Lawrence Esmonde, of Ballynastragh County Wexford. They had one son, named Thomas. Sir Lawrence met Murrought in the course of his service in the army in Connaught.

However I notice on the wiki page for Sir Lawrence, it is written that he is married to Morrough, who is named here as the son of Granuaile and Donal. Can someone clean up the naming conventions here?

Backbeatlistener (talk) 14:49, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Reference needed for her wealth?

The lede section currently says: "O'Malley was very wealthy (reportedly owning as much as 1,000 head of cattle and horses[citation needed])." Later in the body this statement is repeated, this time with a reference: "Around the time of her meeting with Queen Elizabeth I of England, she owned herds of cattle and horses that numbered at least one thousand, comprising great riches by the standards of the time.[28]"

MOS:LEDECITE says: Because the lead will usually repeat information that is in the body, editors should balance the desire to avoid redundant citations in the lead with the desire to aid readers in locating sources for challengeable material. Leads are usually written at a greater level of generality than the body, and information in the lead section of non-controversial subjects is less likely to be challenged and less likely to require a source; there is not, however, an exception to citation requirements specific to leads. The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus. Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations; others, few or none. The presence of citations in the introduction is neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article.

It seems obvious to me that the number of O'Malley's livestock is not at all likely to be controversial, and therefore does not require a source in the lede. Any reader curious to know where the figure came from can find it in the body and see the reference. Therefore I removed it, explaining why in the edit summary. User:JesseRafe seems to think otherwise, but rather than explain why he has engaged on a campaign of reverting my edits, simply asserting that a source is needed without explaining why. He then accuses me of edit warring. I call on him to explain here why he thinks the sources is needed, or to acknowledge that it isn't, in keeping with the MOS. -- 76.15.128.174 (talk) 15:05, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Agreed we don't need citations in the lead if they're repeated later in the body. — Jon C.ॐ 11:20, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
PS: Just to be clear, I didn't remove the reference, I removed the Template:cn demanding a reference. That is what got certain editors' panties in a knot. -- 76.15.128.174 (talk) 04:04, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
There being no objection, I'm now going to re-remove the CN tag. Anyone who has an argument to make in favor of restoring it should make it here first. -- 76.15.128.174 (talk) 03:50, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
Sigh. User:JesseRafe is at it again. "nor any explanation given why this CN is unneeded here" is a blatant lie. -- 76.15.128.174 (talk) 14:57, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
IP above is doubling-down on their misrepesentation of the facts, their crusade against CN tags, and their blatant falsehoods about me. Please stop tagging me, and please try to make meaningful contributions to the encyclopedia rather than these prank edits. How could this fact already be cited when nowhere else is the article is there a mention of "over a thousand head of cattle"? That's what the CN is for, please cite it, or leave the tag, or remove the offending remark. Three options, but you insist on a fourth, which is make disruptive edits and then edit-war over them. To say nothing of your uncivil treatment of other editors, your flouting of the BRD rule, and ignoring the fact that multiple other editors have told you you're wrong and/or reverted you. And for all it's worth, please you *MUST* stop tagging me everywhere. I don't mind your lies and harassment as much as the pings. This is probably the fifth time I've asked. It's just another example of your constant incivility. JesseRafe (talk) 16:53, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
@JesseRafe: I'm not sure how you're missing this sentence since it was easy for me to find with a crtl+F search for "cattle", but the very last sentence of the Grace_O'Malley#Career section says "...she owned herds of cattle and horses that numbered at least one thousand, comprising great riches by the standards of the time.[28]" It is clearly cited in the body. only (talk) 17:19, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
I did indeed miss that, as I Ctrl+Fed for cattle and only saw "she owned hers of cattle and horses" and not the qualifying relative clause that followed, which on my screen was after a line break, probably a Paris in the the Spring reading error. Apologies all around. JesseRafe (talk) 18:29, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

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Mention of Dónal an Phíopa Ó Mháille in introduction

Hello,

cc User:Shtove

Following up on this edit: [1]

Initially I was interested in the phrasing of "Upon her father's death she took over active leadership of the lordship by land and sea, despite having a brother, Dónal an Phíopa Ó Mháille." – despite what, I wondered? And what does that have to do with anything? I reckon if he were an important character there would be a wikipedia page about him, but there is not. I decided to look into him a little more to better understand what the author of this sentence might have meant. But I have not been able to turn up much information in my google searches of that name.

"Although she was the only child of Dubhdara and his wife, Gráinne Ní Mháille had a half-brother, called Dónal na Piopa (Donal of the Pipes), who was the son of her father." [1]

Then I looked for "Donal of the Pipes" thinking maybe this was a link that needed to be added. I only found one "Donal of the Pipes" wikipedia article Donal of the Pipes, 17th Prince of Carbery - who does not seem to be the same person as O'Malley's half-brother. Anyway.

There is a mention later in this wikipedia article to her brother, which I think covers the "well let's at least mention she has a half-brother" angle, and at least mentions him where he becomes relevant to her story.

In 1593, when her sons Tiobóid a Búrc (Tibbot Bourke) and Murchadh Ó Flaithbheartaigh (Murrough O'Flaherty), and her half-brother Dónal an Phíopa ("Dónal of the Pipes"), were taken captive by the English governor of Connacht, Sir Richard Bingham, O'Malley sailed to England to petition for their release.

All in all, from some cursory research it seems like the initial sentence "Upon her father's death she took over active leadership of the lordship by land and sea, despite having a brother, Dónal an Phíopa Ó Mháille." should be amended to "Upon her father's death she took over active leadership of the lordship by land and sea." as I cannot find any evidence that her ascent to lordship was in spite of her brother in any way.

Furthermore, from my perspective, he seems relatively unremarkable (besides his capture) and this mention of him is out of place and less understandable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ejfox (talk • contribs)

References

  1. ^ "Irish history - Grace O'Malley (Gráinne Ní Mháille) | Ireland". www.ireland101.com. Retrieved 2019-06-01.
Ejfox, the half-brother is not an important character at all. What makes the mention of him relevant is that succession was typically along the male line (see for example our articles on tanistry and Gavelkind in Ireland, and so it is unclear in this case why, if there was a son of her father, she would assume the leadership. I expect that's what was meant by this fact needing to be elaborated. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:25, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
Nikkimaria - thank you, that makes sense to me. In that case, could it be amended to explain what you just explained to me? Maybe something like "Upon her father's death she took over active leadership of the lordship by land and sea, despite having a half-brother who would be next in line for succession according to Ireland's inheritance laws." and leave the introduction until later? EJFox (talk) 02:01, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

You all should know that in Brehon law a chieftainship didn't always go to the son but to the leader elected by a "derbfine", a group of cousins. Donal obviously liked playing on the pipes and didn't make the grade.78.16.104.162 (talk) 22:16, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Tiobóid

She had a son named Tiobóid a Búrc (Tibbot Bourke). Is Tiobóid/Tibbot another form of the name Tybalt (character in Romeo and Juliet)?--Solomonfromfinland (talk) 17:15, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

This talk page is for discussion of how to improve the article. It is not a forum for general discussion. PepperBeast (talk) 01:29, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Proper Move Proposals

Already being discussed at the proper venue; WP:FORUMSHOP is policy. ——Serial # 13:31, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Please put your responses in the Talk:Gráinne_Ní_Mháille#Other_editors_comments/votes section!

It is clear from reading the above the article move was poorly done and in haste ignoring key Wikipedia policies and with no evidence provided whatsoever for the move. Thus this article should never have been moved. There wasn't even a proper discussion as to what it should have been moved to.

Firstly to quote the closer: and from what I can also tell, contemporary sources are tending to follow the more general trend of de-anglicising names - where is the evidence for this? None were provided by anyone advocating for a name change. There are more contemporary sources still using "Grace O'Malley" and evidence was provided showing that Grace is still predominant. The more general trend? This can be argued as falling foul of WP:RECENT.

Secondly WP:COMMONNAME might exist however it does not surpass MOS:IMOS NAMES, which has devised specifically for Irish people. The closer not once referred to this policy when closing despite the fact it was mentioned in the discussion by four different editors whether as WP:IMOS or Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles#Naming people. This figure is an Irish figure and comes under the manual of style guidelines devised specifically for Irish people. The requirements under this policy are:

No evidence was provided that Gráinne Ní Mháille is the most common form amongst English speakers.

Thirdly the closer didn't even take into consideration the counter-proposals suggested by several supports of the move.

Fourth - There was no consensus of any form for moving the article. If we look at Wikipedia:ROUGHCONSENSUS it states Consensus is not determined by counting heads, but by looking at strength of argument, and underlying policy (if any). Arguments that contradict policy, are based on unsubstantiated personal opinion rather than fact, or are logically fallacious, are frequently discounted. - underlying policy (MOS:IMOS NAMES) was ignored. The supporting arguments contradicted that policy and were based on personal opinions, thus making them discounted.

Evidence for a move?

The supporters of the move gave no valid argument for ignoring this policy and requirement:

  • Support. There is plenty of English-language usage of her actual name as well. Ausir (talk) 00:35, 2 July 2020 (UTC) - "Plenty" does not mean they are most common so this argument fails the test.
  • Support. We should use her actual name blindlynx (talk) 00:49, 2 July 2020 (UTC) - this argument is based on personal opinion
  • Support. Her entire life was spent in opposition to the English, it's disrespectful to her and the Irish people to change it to Grace for absolutely no good reason. Faye (talk) 09:30, 2 July 2020 (GMT) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.25.206.190 (talk) - IP sock/possible twitter campaigner whose argument is based on personal opinion
  • Support. The page itself refers to "contemporary English documents" that list her name as Gráinne or a version closer to that name but not Grace. Both the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography and the Dictionary of Irish Biography - Cambridge University Press in the References have her name translated but retain Gráinne. DarkerDai (talk) 09:11, 2 July 2020 (UTC) — DarkerDai (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. - another IP scck/possible Twitter campaigner. At least provides something however their evidence [2] and [3] does not back the move to the current name.
  • Support. Her name wasn't Grace O'malley, it was Gráinne Ní Mháille. Grace O'malley is just an inaccurate anglicised version of her name used and popularised by her enemies. Obviously she should be called by her real name in this instance. Seaniemcf2 (talk) 09:52, 2 July 2020 (UTC) — Seaniemcf2 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. - another IP sock/possible Twitter campaigner, argument based on opinion.
  • Support move - Gráinne is preferred as the main forename, with Grace bracketed, in high-quality modern English-language sources such as the ODNB and DIB: while Google Ngrams shows the use of 'Grace', this has a peak in usage around the 1850s. While this could reflect the age distribution of books in the Google Books corpus, use in English-language texts of that period is not necessarily indicative of modern preferred usage. Carminowe of Hendra (talk) 09:54, 2 July 2020 (UTC) - They may support move however only provide evidence for changing the forename name from Grace to Gráinne, none for the surname. The evidence of ODNB and DIB which is the same as DarkDai's does not add to the evidence that it is the most commonly used name.
  • Support move Examination of primary documentation in the English manuscripts show that even when anglicising her name they use 'Grayn Ny Vale', ' Grany Ne Malley' 'Grany ne Male' or Grany ni Maelly' (Nat Archives Kew, PRO SP 63/179/f. 7). Gallowglas1598 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gallowglas1598 (talk • contribs) 14:43, 2 July 2020 (UTC) - Wikipedia primarily uses secondary sources not primary sources. Reliable academically sourced ones at that preferably.
  • Support move If we can have the wiki pages about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyotr_Ilyich_Tchaikovsky rather than "Peter" or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89douard_Manet rather than "Edward" I don't see why we should call the personality of this debate "Grace" when her name was actually Gráinne. Policies and guidelines of Wikipedia are fine when Wikipedia can clearly demonstrate that the rule of using the English language is applied to all personalities in the English Wikipedia. It appears this is NOT always the case. Therefore, Wikipedia editors, in particular, should be more humanist and appreciate what the consensus is requesting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Appariscente (talk • contribs) 16:12, 2 July 2020 (UTC) — Appariscente (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. - another IP sock/possible Twitter campaigner. The editor clearly doesn't understand the requirements of WP:COMMONNAME or WP:IMOS and their argument is almost purely opinion.
  • Support. May I propose Gráinne O'Malley as a compromise though because Gráinne is used regularly as a name when speaking English but we will rarely use Ní Mháille over O'Malley when speaking English. And unlike "Grace" for Gráinne, that is a literal English translation. Stevenbfg (talk) 16:46, 2 July 2020 (UTC) - supports but not really as they are seeking a compromise. Their argument is also based on opinion.
  • Support. Gráinne didn't even speak English so it is something of an oddity to see her written as Grace. It is not quite a translation of her name, it's merely a name the English use for people who have Gráinne as a name because there are 3 letters in common at the start. I think we should use a person's actual name not someone else's rendition of it when ever we can. ☕ Antiqueight chatter 19:30, 2 July 2020 (UTC) - Argument based on opinion.
  • Support per AntiqueEight and Gallowglas1988 (though I'd prefer "Gráinne Mhaol" over "Gráinne Ní Mháille", as that's the name I personally have encountered most often). BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 09:23, 3 July 2020 (UTC) - Argument based on those of editors whose argument is based on opinion.
  • Support, as has been said, her name was Gráinne Ní Mháille and she didn't speak English, so why should the Anglicised rendering be used?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.212.230 (talk) - IP sock/possible Twitter campaigner. Pure opinion.
  • Support... There is absolutely no reason that this person's name (or any other person's name for that matter) should be Anglicized, regardless of the number of sources that support using an Anglicized version. WP:Commonname does not state that the name must be the one most commonly used in sources, but rather that it is "generally prefered". Looking at other naming convention guidelines for help, I note that while WP:Deadname does not speak to the issue of historic figures nor does MOS:IDENTITY, the logic of both is clearly to use what would have been used by the person. In the US, this situation exists most prominently for Native Americans, wherein colonizers gave their communities and people names which have been rejected. For example, though there are plenty of sources that list the former name of the Tohono O'odham, we don't use that name, because the people to whom it refers find it unacceptable. Her name was never Grace and it shouldn't be that regardless of whether there are sources out there that call her that. SusunW (talk) 14:42, 3 July 2020 (UTC) - A mixture of opinion and a lack of knowledge of MOS:IMOS NAMES.
  • Support move This is the general consensus of her real name. The anglicized version can be a redirect for anyone searching for her. Also, I believe MOS:IMOS NAMES overrules WP:COMMONNAME in this situation. Montanabw(talk) 15:17, 3 July 2020 (UTC) - If MOS:IMOS NAMES overrules WP:COMMONNAME then this support is contradicted.
  • Support move per SusunW. Note, most of the articles I start these days are about historical women so I deal with this issue (what to call her) a lot. But I've also dealt with it in years past when I created articles about old Spanish churches/monasteries. Note, I did not come here via Twitter. --Rosiestep (talk) 16:36, 3 July 2020 (UTC) - Argument based on opinion.
  • Support Per COMMONNAME, "inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources". Gráinne O'Malley is a possible compromise per Stevenbfg, as the "Grace" part is particularly inaccurate. Hrodvarsson (talk) 23:13, 6 July 2020 (UTC) - This argument has no relevance as it is not the case of a couple of sources using an inaccurate name.
  • The following was after Sceptre's close:
  • Since this looks like it might get reopened, I support the move. Gráinne Ní Mháille was her actual name. I can see arguments of COMMONNAME for people like, say, Lemmy rather than Ian Kilmister but Lemmy embraced that name during his lifetime whereas there is good reason to think Gráinne Ní Mháille wouldn't have particularly liked "Grace O'Malley". Reyk YO! 10:10, 9 July 2020 (UTC) - another opinion argument.

Summary

Once you look at all those supports not one bit of evidence was given as to why we should ignore MOS:IMOS NAMES, which takes precedence in this case. All we got was personal opinion and a couple of bis of information that supports having her forename in Irish but not her surname. Evidence on the otehr hand provided above by opposer's however shows that Grace O'Malley is the commonly used name for her in the English language. Indeed a look at Google books [4] shows quite a few books released in the past year or so still calling her "Grace O'Malley", and some of these by Irish authors! Other sources also make mention of her nickname Granuaile.

Solution?

There are several possibilities on how to go from this:

  1. Restore the article to Grace O'Malley as no evidence has been provided to overrule MOS:IMOS NAMES just personal opinion.
  2. Move the article to "Grainne O'Malley" as a compromise even though it does not meet MOS:IMOS NAMES. Most supporters of a move seem to be more concerned with her forename than anything else. Grainne is the English rendering of Gráinne and Grainne O'Malley is used in some reliable academic sources instead of Grace O'Malley.
  3. Move the article to her nickname Granuaile.
  4. Keep the current name despite the fact no evidence was provided to back the move.

Mabuska (talk) 12:14, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Other editors comments/votes

  • My personal preferences are proposals 1 and 2 per MOS:IMOS NAMES as overwhelming weight of sources use Grace O'Malley, though others use Grainne O'Malley. Mabuska (talk) 12:19, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
  • This is already being discussed at the proper venue. Just because consensus isn't going the way you want doesn't mean you can circumvent it by starting yet another discussion. Reyk YO! 12:21, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
There is no consensus that's the problem just a count of heads whose support on the matter was based on personal opinion or poor understanding of the relevant policies in play. No evidence was provided to circumvent Wikipedia policy (MOS:IMOS NAMES) on the matter. If consensus actually did indeed back this name and sources did too then I'm happy enough, but they don't.
In response to TheBanner's motion at the Move Review, unlike the previous discussion I am providing alternatives that can be discussed and backed to reach a compromise if one is needed. A compromise that several supporters of the move mentioned but were totally ignored when the above was closed and the article moved. Thus there is no clear consensus and we might be able to find a better name that more editors are happy with.
Also regardless of the result of that Move Review, whether it is to revert the move or to keep it, the issue clearly needs addressed properly without a highly contested and improper close backed by nothing but opinion hanging over it.
I'd also suggest you read what I wrote as it appears you just skimmed it. Mabuska (talk) 12:47, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Fair enough however at least it will stand as a testament to why this move was improperly closed and carried out setting a bad standard and precedent. At FDW777, noted though common name still backs up not moving the article. Ironic how at the Irish poets discussion IMOS overruled UE but UE is a policy whereas IMOS is not. Mabuska (talk) 13:50, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

I could not agree with you more. Bad precedent. Really bad for WP reputation such things. Proves to critics that this is just a playpen not worthy of working with or even reading. Policy schmolicy, that's what we're supposed to learn from it. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
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