Talk:Geography of Wales

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New map[edit]

Thanks for the effort IP, but sorry, I'm not much happier with the new map than I was with the old one. It seems to show principal areas in different tones of grey (but why? - we already have a map showing those areas more clearly), national parks (Snowdonia looks to have very inaccurate boundaries - see this, for example), and some towns, some of which (Holyhead, Rhyl) are wrongly located, and no towns are shown in the Valleys (main centre of population). Also, no topography is shown, and no rivers. The coastline and England boundary are shown more accurately than before, which is good. Thanks, but further work needed I think. I'll copy both maps (old and new) to this page for ease of comparison. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:02, 1 December 2008 (UTC) PS: There's also a typo in Pembrokeshire.[reply]

Map as on page up to Nov 08
New map, 1 Dec 08

"Peninsula"...?[edit]

The opening line says "Wales comprises a peninsula...." Does it? A "peninsula" is somewhere that is (literally) almost an island - it sticks out into the sea. Wales doesn't - it's an irregularly shaped western part of the island, but the north-south distance along the border with England is much greater than its east-west width (except perhaps in the south). This wording is used in other articles as well, but I think it should be improved. If others agree in principle, it should be possible to agree a more suitable wording. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:54, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Quite agree. Any suggestion? Daicaregos (talk) 20:57, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How about: "Wales comprises a generally hilly area on the western side of central southern Great Britain, between the Irish Sea to the north and the Bristol Channel to the south." Subsequent sentences would need to be changed as well, but how is that for an opener? Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:02, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would prefer mountainous to hilly. Pretty good otherwise. Daicaregos (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm...not sure. It's certainly mountainous in some parts (Snowdonia, Brecon Beacons), but is it generally mountainous? I'd say it was generally hilly, with some mountains and some flatter and lower parts. Anyway: "Wales comprises a generally [hilly/mountainous] area on the western side of central southern Great Britain, between the Irish Sea to the north and the Bristol Channel to the south, together with offshore islands of which the largest is Anglesey. It is a country of the United Kingdom, and borders England to the east. It is about 274 km (170 mi) from north to south and at least 97 km (60 mi) wide, with a total area of 20,779 km2 (8,023 sq mi). It has over 1,200 km (746 mi) of coastline." Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:41, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The physical description of Wales in the ONS UK Yearbook 2005 is:

Wales is on the western side of Great Britain. It is mountainous – around one-quarter is above 305 metres and in the north its highest peak, Snowdon (Yr Wyddfa), rises to 1,085 metres. The Cambrian Mountains run from north to south and to the south are the Brecon Beacons, with flat, grassy summits, and the steep-sided South Wales Valleys. The Welsh coastline varies from estuaries to sheltered bays, high cliffs, peninsulas, and marsh and low-tide sandbanks.

--Pondle (talk) 22:00, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Met Office has it: “Wales is a mainly mountainous country with much of the land being over 150 metres.”
Wording agreed for the Wales article introduction is suitable for the subsequent sentences here: “It is a country that is part of the United Kingdom, bordered by England to its east and the Atlantic Ocean and Irish Sea to its west.” Daicaregos (talk) 22:25, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK. How about:

"Wales is a generally mountainous country on the western side of central southern Great Britain, between the Irish Sea to the north and the Bristol Channel to the south. It is part of the United Kingdom, bordered by England to its east and the Atlantic Ocean and Irish Sea to its west. It is about 274 km (170 mi) from north to south and at least 97 km (60 mi) wide, with a total area of 20,779 km2 (8,023 sq mi). It has over 1,200 km (746 mi) of coastline, and includes offshore islands of which the largest is Anglesey."

Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:44, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A definite improvement to the current intro. Daicaregos (talk) 06:46, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done, with a couple of tweaks. If people like it, it can be rolled out into other articles where appropriate. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:03, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fine by me. Unless you think the Celtic Sea should be included too. Daicaregos (talk) 10:39, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rewriting this article[edit]

I am rewriting this article as part of the Awaken the Dragon project. I have already rewritten the section previously named "Topography and geology", substituting the section headings " Physical geography" and "Geology". I intend next to expand and better-reference "Land use", "Political geography" and "Climate".

I propose to further remodel the article on the lines of the Geography of Ireland article which is an FA. I intend to remove some of the listy sections such as "National Parks", "Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty", "Waterfalls" and "Lakes and Reservoirs". Any comments on my plans would be welcome. @Dr. Blofeld: Cwmhiraeth (talk) 11:05, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Cwmhiraeth: You're certainly on the right track, if you can make it about the same sort of length overall and format to the Irish one it'll definitely be fine, that's exactly the sort of article I was thinking of. I think for Wales though it would be good to have more detail on the mountains and rivers than you see in the Irish one. Some of the sections are a bit short in that article, meatier ones are preferred. But overall more detail could come later after the contest should you wish to get it to FA status. Yes, we want to rid of the listy sections and find a way of mentioning a few of them in decent, readable prose. Similar sorts of sections are relevant but only if done with decent prose and subtle examples rather than ugly bulled lists. Just follow the Ireland one and you can't go wrong. It would probably be easier for you to just nuke or partly nuke certain sections and just write them from scratch. I encourage that, it's quicker, and more reliable that you've fully verified the material yourself. Thankyou for taking it on!♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:05, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Geography of Wales/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sainsf (talk · contribs) 10:01, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]


Impressive work, I would be pleased to help. Sainsf <^>Feel at home 10:01, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Lead:
  • a constituent part of the United Kingdom I am sure this refers to Wales and not to Western Europe. Could be clearer.
Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • It had a population in 2011 of 3,063,456 Would be better to write something like "As of 2011, the population is..."
Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • with a total area of 20,779 km2 (8,023 sq mi) Repeated fact.
Removed. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Exploitation of the South Wales Coalfield... I wonder if "developing" and "expanding" would look better as "development" and "expansion".
Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think "Atlantic Ocean" should be wikilinked.
Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Duplinks: There are one or more duplinks in each section. Please fix them and retain only if necessary.
Removed, I think. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Physical geography:
  • "Mountainous" may not need a link. If you wish to keep the link then please link it in the lead as well.
Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Say either "northwest" or "north west".
Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The meaning of "tussocky" may not be apparent. Better add a few words of explanation.
Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think you can say "rivers Mawddach, Dovey, Rheidol, Ystwyth and Teifi" instead of "the River Mawddach, the River Dovey, the River Rheidol, the River Ystwyth and the River Teifi "; "the river" need not be repeated. Try this with a few more instances in this section.
Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Llyn Trawsfynydd 4.8 km2 (1.9 sq mi) I think you should say "at" 4.8 km2 here and in similar instances.
Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think "glacial valley" should be wikilinked.
Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Geology:
  • Link or explain outcropping, turbidity and folding.
Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • some 700mya Better write "some 7 Mya".
Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lower Palaeozoic Can you add how long ago it was? I think you should try to add the "myas" for at least some of the eras mentioned later on as well.
Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • sedimentary and volcanic rocks, marine basin Links?
Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link "Ordovician".
Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • No source for the last para?
Added. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Climate:
  • I think "Atlantic Ocean" and "low pressure system" should be wikilinked.
Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any conversion or linking possible for "knots"?
Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Land use:
  • The figures for area in the lead are in sq.km. and sq.mi., while here you use hectares and acres. I think it would be better to have some consistency here.
Changed the lead. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Natural resources:
  • in Roman Times When would that be?
Rephrased. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link or explain "metalliferous".
Rephrased. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • and at one time Snowdonia had a flourishing copper industry Any idea when exactly?
Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do "oil" and "gas" need links?
Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Snowdonia and Brecon Beacons national parks These are linked in "Protected areas", but I guess they should be linked just here as this is the first mention.
Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Political geography:
  • Does "pub" need a link?
Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • are known as principal areas Not sure if we need italics or quotes here.
Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Demography:
  • The population of Wales in 2014 This section gives a more recent estimate than the lead (2011).
Changed lead. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • population and industrial areas Are the links really needed?
Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Protected areas:
  • the spectacular coastal scenery "spectacular" may not look like NPOV.
I think this is OK. They wanted to preserve the landscape because it was spectacular. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does "waterfall" need a link?
Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Images: Look good, I think the caption of the first image (the map) could better read "Physical map of Wales".
Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That is all I have to say. I appreciate your efforts for this article, it is really beautiful. Good luck! Sainsf <^>Feel at home 11:00, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. All done, I think. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the response. Rest looks good, no copyvio detected and images are properly licensed. Good to go. Awesome job! Sainsf <^>Feel at home 05:22, 25 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Lead[edit]

Congratulations on a well deserved GA.

Just two points on the Lead: firstly, the initial sentence still sounds rather odd. I propose we go with the intro used on the Wales article, which was arrived at by mediation i.e. Wales (Welsh: Cymru) is a country that is part of the United Kingdom and the island of Great Britain,[1] bordered by England to its east, the Irish Sea to its north and west, and the Bristol Channel to its south.;

and secondly, the length of Wales' coastline here (over 1,200 km (746 mi)) differs to that noted in the Wales article (over 1,680 miles (2,700 km)). Coastline was discussed at Talk:Wales here. I have no view as to which figure is 'correct', if there is such a thing, but we should be consistent. Daicaregos (talk) 12:35, 25 April 2016

  1. ^ "The Countries of the UK". statistics.gov.uk. Retrieved 10 October 2008.
@Daicaregos: Thank you, that is a good point you raise. I believe all articles in the chain should have consistency in such basic facts. Cwmhiraeth, could you look into this? Sainsf <^>Feel at home 12:49, 25 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for bringing up that point. I have found a good source for the length of the coastline and the figure used before was way off. I have also rephrased the opening sentence as suggested. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 17:56, 25 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Language[edit]

The article needs to include something about the geographical distribution of the two languages.

Also, regarding the areas of the lakes,

(a) do we have a good source for the precise area of Llyn Tegid to substantiate the claim that it is still the largest lake? I suspect that the area varies materially depending on the water level.

(b) it would be preferable to input the areas in km2 (to one decimal place) and then convert it to sq miles, as doing the opposite creates too large rounding errors.----Ehrenkater (talk) 21:27, 25 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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"Most of Wales is mountainous..."[edit]

Is that really true? Most of Wales is hilly, and parts are mountainous - but most is not, in my view. Sources for the existing statement? Checking above, I see I raised this before. But I still don't think it's right, and it gives a false impression to non-locals. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:48, 13 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd have to concur! And indeed much of upland Wales might reasonably described as moorland.Geopersona (talk) 19:28, 13 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Length of the Welsh coast[edit]

Two issues here: i) the given reference in what is presently the 5th para of the Physical geography section no longer works - it just takes you to the homepage of the BCS and conducting a search there on Welsh coastline yields no results. ii) as editors who have approached this topic before will well know, given coastline lengths (anywhere) are almost meaningless without further qualification (see How Long Is the Coast of Britain? Statistical Self-Similarity and Fractional Dimension) cheers Geopersona (talk) 06:18, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Merger proposal[edit]

I propose merging Geography and identity in Wales into Geography of Wales. The content in Geography and identity in Wales could quite easily be replicated and summarised as a sub-section in Geography of Wales#Political Geography and it could be confusing to readers to have two similarly-named articles. As the first article is about 12 years old I thought I'd open a discussion rather than do it anyway. Bonoahx (talk) 12:40, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment. About 12 years ago (!!), there was some discussion at Talk:Geography and identity in Wales, about the possible expansion and renaming of that page - to, say, Social geography of Wales, or Regional identity within Wales - but nothing was done and I'd forgotten about it. The existing article is not good, but there is certainly an article - or section - to be written, with good sources, about regional identity within Wales, in social, linguistic, and other terms. In an ideal world, that would be written as a freestanding article. But we are not in an ideal world. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:27, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  checkY Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 04:51, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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