Talk:Franklin

Benjamin Franklin

I believe it is doing a disservice to readers to not note that this man is the namesake of almost all of the other entries; it should be done up front. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 06:11, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

The place for that is the Benjamin Franklin page, which I encourage you to edit if that information is not already there, but not this disambiguation page. The main principle of a disambiguation page is we want to "shoo" the user to the right page, pronto. Disambiguation pages disambiguate, not provide trivia. Neonumbers 02:50, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Rewrote lead

The consensus nowadays is that the thing with the most hits should be mentioned in the lead. So, I rewrote it that Big Ben (175000 hits) gets the nod over the Franklin class (500 hits). One is a little more viewed. Purplebackpack89 (talk) 01:25, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, now it's written more like the Lincoln page. If it works there, it should work here. Purplebackpack89 (talk) 00:16, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:34, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Franklin → Franklin (disambiguation) — Ben Franklin is pretty clearly the primary topic for this page Purplebackpack89 ^{(Notes Taken) (Locker)} 15:37, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose That may be a US-centric view. It is clear from the article that there are a pile of alternative meanings, which cumulatively add up. John Franklin is one fairly well-known person with this name, he might actually be the primary meaning in Britain. PatGallacher (talk) 18:27, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

But most of the users of this WP aren't in Britain. Honestly, "this one thing is big in Britain" is not a good argument for anything Purplebackpack89 ^{(Notes Taken) (Locker)} 03:56, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose no evidence presented, article shows multiple notable meanings. Tassedethe (talk) 20:15, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Evidence below Purplebackpack89 ^{(Notes Taken) (Locker)} 03:56, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose not even close. Since when is Ben Franklin primary? 70.29.210.155 (talk) 03:48, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Since he got tens of thousands of hits more. That "John Franklin" may be coo in England, but Ben Franklin is 30x more viewed than him, and is therefore the primary topic. You do know that IPs aren't really supposed to be counted in move discussions, right? Purplebackpack89 ^{(Notes Taken) (Locker)} 03:56, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Quote a policy on that. You know you can't say that since it's wrong. 70.29.210.155 (talk) 10:48, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

For starters, an IP calling an established editor flat-out wrong doesn't look good for the IP. And I have seen, at least on The policy guidelines for deletion pages, that IP accounts can be discounted (because a great many IPs are vandals or sockpuppets), and have seen said policy put in practice multiple times on both deletions and moves. If you want to gain the respect you are due as an editor you really should create an account. Also, a better argument than "not even close" would be helpful Purplebackpack89 ^{(Notes Taken) (Locker)} 15:17, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

If you are wrong, why can't I say it? This is not an XfD process, and you just blurt out that IPs should be discounted without any supporting policy, so it just looks like you want to get rid of an opinion that is in opposition to your own. That certainly doesn't show a position that should be respected. Your only point that shows that my opinion is less than heavy is your last point "a better argument than..." ; otherwise it's just your waving hands to get rid of opposition. 70.29.210.155 (talk) 05:19, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

There are a multitude of non-US Franklins that have prominence in non-US contexts. And even in the US, alot of people would say that the Franklin Mint is the first thing that comes up when they think Franklin. It's certainly a Franklin that gets more airtime than any other in the US. Then there's the 100$ bill, called a C-note, a Benjamin, a Franklin, etc. And Franklin Roosevelt. 70.29.210.155 (talk) 05:19, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Comment Page hits aren't everything, beware of systemic bias in favour of the USA, see WP:BIAS. Australians and Canadians might have another view of the primary meaning e.g. the District of Franklin (which I think takes its name from John Franklin the explorer). Some people might regard the primary meaning as franklin (class), because it is the original meaning, and because of the franklin's tale in the Canterbury Tales. PatGallacher (talk) 17:42, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

It clearly states that page hits are an acceptable way to determine primary topic. Franklin (class) is definetely not anywhere near the PT; it recieved only 266 hits this month. I'm not sure that there is a systemic bias; or that it should matter if there is. Greatest good for greatest number Purplebackpack89 ^{(Notes Taken) (Locker)} 19:43, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

"I'm not sure that there is a systemic bias; or that it should matter if there is." Sorry, but it does matter, try reading WP:BIAS. PatGallacher (talk) 21:13, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

It's bad faith on your part to assume I haven't read it, but I read it. It seems to be more concerned about First World/Third World Bias or rich/poor bias rather than U.S./U.K. bias. If you want to base it on population, as they apparantly do there, the U.S. is only 5% of the world's population, but Britian's only 1% and Canada's only 0.5%

It does give as an example of bias "... suggesting a US perspective rather than a worldwide one". PatGallacher (talk) 09:21, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

In reference to TV shows and organizations. Seems a little like you're picking and choosing a little here and little there of the BIAS argument...and even if it had a clear reference to this situation (which it doesn't), it is an essay that hasn't been agreed on, not a guideline and certainly not a policy. Purplebackpack89 ^{(Notes Taken) (Locker)} 16:24, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose Ben who now? In all seriousness, there isn't a primary topic here. Jeni ^(talk) 21:02, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Jeni, do you have better things to do than bully me and sarcastically feign ignorance? Purplebackpack89 ^{(Notes Taken) (Locker)} 23:30, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Comment: I don't think any of you Oppose votes are going to like this, but can any of you give me a good reason why Churchill gets the redirect and Franklin and Lincoln don't? There are famous people and places with all three names; and Churchill is not the most hit of the three. This inconsistency was recently raised by another editor on the Lincoln page recently Purplebackpack89 ^{(Notes Taken) (Locker)} 22:57, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

OK, it's a fair question. Winston Churchill and Abraham Lincoln are both very important historical figures, Benjamin Franklin is important but not quite in the same class, and there is another fairly well-known person of this name. There is also a well-known city called Lincoln. Winston Churchill stands head and shoulders above all other meanings of the name Churchill, which does not apply to Franklin and Lincoln. Also, with Churchill, other fairly well-known people with this surname are all British, so you do not get into problems with the way the primary meaning of some names might be different in different countries. PatGallacher (talk) 23:26, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

By the well-known city, I assume you're referring to Lincoln, Nebraska; the most populous and most hit city of that name? Purplebackpack89 ^{(Notes Taken) (Locker)} 01:14, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. I'm somewhat puzzled, because the way the move request is phrased, it seems like there should be evidence presented here that indicates users who visit this dab page are more likely, or much more likely, to be looking for Benjamin than any other usage. But as far as I can see, no such evidence has been presented. Relying on my own experience (as an American) in lieu of any such evidence, I just don't think Benjamin Franklin is referred to as just "Franklin" so commonly that he is obviously the primary topic. I don't know why that seems to be the case; maybe it's because, unlike "Lincoln" and "Churchill", "Franklin" is a very common first name as well as a surname, but I'm just guessing. If any user wanted to create a redirect to Benjamin Franklin that would only be linked from this page that would allow us to gauge the number of visitors who use this page to reach Benjamin's article (as was done at Lincoln), I'd have no objection to that. Propaniac (talk) 15:08, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

 Done through The Benjamin Franklin Purplebackpack89 ^{(Notes Taken) (Locker)} 19:37, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

And FYI, some IP started a discussion a few days back on the Lincoln page, but I think it died. Purplebackpack89 ^{(Notes Taken) (Locker)} 19:40, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.