Talk:FitzGerald dynasty/Archive 1

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Archive 1

People section

Is it better to have the People section arranged by chronology or alphabet?--shtove 22:23, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Origins?

What is known about the Gerald the lineage descends from? Nothing? I always thought that we/they descended from Giraldus Cambrensis, but it seems he was a FitzGerald's nephew. So unless the Normans were into time travelling and paternal paradoxes, then... Geno-Supremo (talk) 16:55, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Giraldus was a priest, so he didn't have a family. He was the grandson of Gerald de Windsor. His uncles Raymond fitz Gerald and Maurice fitz Gerald, two of the original Norman invaders, were Gerald of Windsor's sons and founders of the FitzGerald family in Ireland. So Gerald of Windsor is the Gerald that the family is descended from. Scolaire (talk) 20:26, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Thank you very much. With that infromation; over on Gerald de Windsor's page and it's corrsponding reference, it says that Maurice was indeed his son, but that Raymond was the son of William, son of Gerald; ie: it was Maurice (son of Gerald) and Ray (grandson of Gerald) who were in the Norman invasion. Thoughts? Do you think perhaps we should include the progenitor(s) of the lineage in the notable FItzGeralds, or the list in the "Peers of Ireland" section? And, on that, who would the progenitor be? Ger of Windsor as the father, or Ray & Maurice as the founders (in Ireland?)? Also: made a basic coat of arms. I'm not wrong with the white field, red X, am I? Geno-Supremo (talk) 17:41, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Actually, should we write up a section on their actions, movements, participation in the Norman invasion etc.? I confess when I looked for the page, I hoped to find somewhat more... Geno-Supremo (talk) 23:44, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

illegitimate?

How does "Fitz" mean "illegitimate son"? Doesn't it just mean "son of"? Henry II was called "FitzEmpress," but he was obviously not illegitimate. john k 08:17, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


There is nothing to suggest "illegitimate" in the name at all. I have no idea where that came from! This article needs lots of work, its well below par...oh well, will do it bit by bit! Barryfitzgerald (talk) 17:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

House of FitzGerald?

I have to protest against this title for the article. The FitzGeralds are a) not a British Royal "House" like Stuart or Tudor or Plantagenet, b) not a continental "noble house" like the House of Rochechouart, and c) not a Gaelic royal family like the House of O'Donnell of Tyrconnell. The have their origins as Norman-Welsh adventurers and supporters of the English Crown in Ireland. They are not a "house". DinDraithou (talk) 19:31, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean? They are certainly a noble house like any other of the Normans noble houses who asserted themselves in the British Isles and gained numerous noble titles. They are refered to as the "House of FitzGerland" in literature, [1][2] and there is over 132,000 results for the "House of FitzGerald" on Google. You don't have to be a King as part of the family to be named a "house", the title "House of" is used in Europe for nobility in general. - Yorkshirian (talk) 14:59, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
They are a noble house but only British Royal Houses are commonly referred to as such. Changing the title like you have makes the FitzGeralds look pretentious, although your intention is obviously to enhance their stature. The nobility and durability of this enigmatic family are well known and they do not require this pretentious "title" when other British and Irish noble families are not using it in Wikipedia. I'm a descendant of the 8th Earl of Kildare btw. DinDraithou (talk) 15:36, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
No, not only British monarchal houses are referred to as such. As I have just showed you with the sources specifically on this family. This is the standard on Wikipedia. General family names of no connected or titled notability (such as "Smith", "Jones" or "Brown" for instance) have a simple surname article. Noble houses across Europe who established themselves in the Middle Ages, gaining titles are known as "House of". The word "dynasty" on Wikipedia is only uniformly used to refer to families from before the High Middle Ages, such as the Carolingian dynasty. Whether you think the standard way noble houses are refered to is "pretentious" is another matter, a confusing one which I don't understand what you are getting at? - Yorkshirian (talk) 05:39, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Well we have to keep in mind that the High Middle Ages were missed by some people and that the Early Middle Ages really start in Ireland politically around the late 4th century. The FitzGeralds and their followers, probably mostly Welsh, walked right into that and got time-warped because the Irish kingdoms were locked in stalemate for 800 years after the still unexplained collapse of the more coordinated Érainn left the entire island a spectacular political disaster. In any case, the descent from Nest verch Rhys allows us to title the FitzGeralds a dynasty because the Welsh princes were clearly shaping the muscle. But I get your point and agree that there are problems with the article title I've gone with too. DinDraithou (talk) 06:19, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
I should have included that the FitzGeralds, especially the Desmond branch, went more native than any other of the Cambro-Normans. Gerald FitzGerald, 3rd Earl of Desmond became the spiritual successor of the semi-mythological Ailill Aulom in Munster and it was like his Desmond branch became as pagan as the early Eóganachta for a time, claiming descent from Áine like they were royalty. They even started using Gaelic princely titles like Chief of the Name (Mór). The Kildare branch have remained politically (geographically) closer to England but spiritually they're just as far out there.
The trouble is that neither ever became "true royalty", so I'm still against making the article title House of FitzGerald. They might have after a time if there wasn't the so-called Tudor reconquest. Interestingly, the Tudors were like the FitzGeralds and did not have princely or even comital origins themselves. The whole business with claiming descent from the Gherardini of Florence is about trying to find ducal-esque male ancestors in place of apparently "untitled" Saxon gentry, however noble and distinguished. But I ramble. DinDraithou (talk) 18:10, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Earls of Desmond

I am pleased to announce the creations of James FitzGerald, 6th Earl of Desmond, and his son Thomas FitzGerald, 7th Earl of Desmond. When I create more, including the Barons Desmond, I will announce them too. DinDraithou (talk) 20:41, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Áine

I have added Áine to the FitzGerald category. It would be nice if someone could discover any stories other than the one mentioned in her article. DinDraithou (talk) 01:27, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Dynasty?

Are they really a dynasty? most noble families are referred to as families, although some are called house. I think the FitzGerald Family would be best. Dynasty implies they ruled or held some position. Possibly the Earldom of Desmond? but this article covers more than that dynasty. 71.194.44.209 (talk) 06:06, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

In Ireland the situation was unique and these families became semi-royal, although they did not belong to the so-called immemorial nobility paternally, assuming obscure gentry to not count. The FitzGeralds are convinced they actually graduated to become proper royalty. Some did. (copied from the comments of an ex-editor). Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:11, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
I more or less agree with whoever that was, but am more generous. The FitzGeralds are their own species. Personally I am sick of the way membership is usually assigned, and look at them as a female line cadet branch of the House of Dinefwr (Deheubarth). The FitzGerald of Kildare (Duke of Leinster) is a prince. As far as the knights I don't know how the dynasty think about them internally, and likewise the FitzMaurices of Kerry. Nora lives (talk) 01:04, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Gherardini Ancestory

References to the Gherardini ancestry being a hoax and there being no Dominus Otho from a Florentine lineage must be listed. The article is lacking sources. For example, I've found these which contradict that very premise here: http://books.google.com/books?id=NuZBAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155&dq=dominus+otto+gherardini&source=bl&ots=w-jIKwz5e4&sig=bsAGnd0LYIRCyLsV5b1Evx3ce0s&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mZAQUdbzE4iy9gTd9oCIDA&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA

And here: http://books.google.com/books?id=OxWy3extxxgC&pg=PA230&lpg=PA230&dq=otto+degli+gherardini&source=bl&ots=sncieYiO2t&sig=PQJYQLBctHdU9vqezCjbqZ-4abE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1pEQUb7zCZOC9QT2pIGwCw&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAg 99.43.166.79 (talk) 05:21, 5 February 2013 (UTC) anon

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Evaluation

I feel as though this article's introduction needs some improvement. It just seems like a lot of information and names that one could get lost while reading it and not fully understand what they are reading, I also could not find any citations for the introduction so I am also wondering where a lot of that information came from. I also could not find any sources for the lineages of any of the houses of Fitzgerald, so that should also be more plainly shown somewhere near them. Some of the cited sources did not work either so those should be checked, and then some of them did not seem exactly like reputable sources, one of them was just a simple site for Irish names. ASU626 (talk) 02:37, 7 November 2017 (UTC)asu626

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