Talk:Fall of Phnom Penh

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Fall of Phnom Penh/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Gog the Mild (talk · contribs) 07:05, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Another for me. Gog the Mild (talk) 07:05, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild: Hi, just a friendly ping as this one doesn't appear to have moved for a couple of weeks. From Hill To Shore (talk) 17:30, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi From Hill To Shore. Apologies for that. On it now. Mztourist, apologies for the delay. I have done a little copy editing, which you will want to check. Flag any issues up here.

• The photograph's source seems to be a dead link. Any chance that you could fix it?
  • Can't find it online, the Marines, like all the US military, have been progressively restricting free access to Vietnam war photos. Its featured on page 118 of the official Marines history https://books.google.ae/books?id=9Gbp6LJW63oC&pg=PA118&lpg=PA118&dq=Department+of+Defense+Photo+(USMC)+A150857&source=bl&ots=5CpiW2oUKW&sig=ACfU3U18KYqUSfUMWZPfceMqAeyOhjZbww&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwigi_y_yPDmAhXC8-AKHSxmCioQ6AEwEnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Department%20of%20Defense%20Photo%20(USMC)%20A150857&f=false Mztourist (talk) 04:14, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Excellent. I have changed the source to that in commons.

• "Lt. General Sak Sutsakhan" Could you give Lieutenant in full, and link lieutenant general.
  • Done Mztourist (talk) 04:14, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
• "of the city for 3 days"; "Thai border arriving 4 days later": Numbers up to nine should be spelt out.
  • Done Mztourist (talk) 04:14, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
• There is an almost complete absence of Khmer Rouge PoV. Did they not at least make official statements or issue proclamations?
  • None that I can locate, the Khmer Rouge were not known for their diligent record-keeping in this period. Mztourist (talk) 04:14, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

You don't say. I wondered if there was some triumphalist propaganda. Ah well, if there isn't, there isn't.

• "Lacking the numbers necessary to openly control Cambodia, emptying Phnom Penh of those of its population who were indifferent or openly hostile to them was essential for securing Khmer Rouge control." That's a bit PoV. Possibly insert 'they felt that' or similar - assuming that the source supports this?
  • That's what Becker says Mztourist (talk) 04:14, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Nice attribution.

• The lead seems brief. Perhaps you could expand the last sentence a little and add a new paragraph based on the last paragraphs of "17 April" and on "Aftermath"?
  • Done Mztourist (talk) 04:14, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Am I missing something?

That's fine. For some reason it wasn't showing before.

• "Aftermath": "18 April" twice in two sentences doesn't flow well. Could one of them be tweaked?
  • Done Mztourist (talk) 04:14, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
• "Also evicted were Princess Mam Manivan Phanivong, one of Sihanouk's wives, Khy-Taing Lim, the Minister of Finance, and Loeung Nal, the Minister of Health." Some semi colons to separate out the individuals would help this to flow.
  • Done Mztourist (talk) 04:14, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
• "Aftermath": There are three single sentence paragraphs. Would it be possible to run at least some of them together?
  • Done Mztourist (talk) 04:14, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Gog the Mild (talk) 22:09, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

• Cites 3 and 9 need either ISBNs or OCLCs.
  • Done Mztourist (talk) 06:25, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
• Cite 2: I think there should be a colon in the title.
  • Done Mztourist (talk) 06:25, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
• Cite 7: the title should be in title case.
  • I don't understand Mztourist (talk) 06:25, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
• The infobox states "Start of the Cambodian Genocide", but this isn't covered in the main article.
  • While its not explicitly stated, the execution of captured FANK forces and captured Government officials as well as emptying the city, including those who wouldn't survive the trek to the countryside, was the start of the genocide. Mztourist (talk) 06:25, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

See my comments above re the lead and the infobox, and the three points on cites. I think that's all. A cracking article. Gog the Mild (talk) 04:42, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, I did expand the lead, not sure what else there is to say there. Mztourist (talk) 06:25, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Yep. See my comment above. It's fine.

• Genocide. It is normal in an aftermath section to explicitly mention any long term consequences of what is described in the article. This aftermath effectively ends on 30 April. But the fall of Phnom Penh has a number of further consequences, which I think could do with mentioning, even if briefly. The start of the genocide is one, which I think would merit at least a short sentence. (Otherwise the article looks good to go to me.) Gog the Mild (talk) 17:11, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Thanks, done. Mztourist (talk) 03:35, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Spot on. A nice, focused, well referenced, readable article. Well done. More than happy to promote it. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:09, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Gog the Mild much appreciated, all relatively painless! Best regards Mztourist (talk) 11:38, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Navigational template

@Mztourist: Hi! About this edit I reverted it as there seems to be confusion about my edit. This is a navigational template that lists the major topics about Phnom Penh, something that is expected about a major historical event regarding the city.

I did not foresee opposition to the inclusion of a city-wide navigational template. WhisperToMe (talk) 07:08, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

@Mztourist:. I strongly disagree that this template is irrelevant and am confused at the rationale. As per WP:BRD I can revert once, especially when I believe there is confusion with the previous edit summary. Anyhow I would like to use Wikipedia:Request for comment. I really am confused about why this would be irrelevant and would like clarity. WhisperToMe (talk) 07:11, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Firstly it doesn't work and secondly I have never seen such a navigational template added to a battle page before. What is the policy based reason why it should be included? Happy for you to open an RFC. regards Mztourist (talk) 07:14, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

@Mztourist:, please review this revision. Does it work here? What browser are you using? I am using Mozilla Firefox on Windows 10 and it works on my end. Now, second: this is not just "a battle" but a traumatic event for the city of Phnom Penh that led to its emptying out. By any definition it's a major part of the city's history and relevant to the city. Thirdly, there's more than just policies, but also practice. Great Chicago Fire includes Template:Chicago, and Great Fire of London includes Template:London history (from a featured article I must add). I'm not sure a policy reason is necessary at this point. WhisperToMe (talk) 07:19, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm still not seeing what it actually does to this page or anywhere else, so I'm confused as to what purpose you think it serves. I certainly agree that it was a major event in the city's history and have linked this page onto the history of Phnom Penh, while its already linked on pages about the Khmer Rouge etc. What more does adding this template do? Mztourist (talk) 07:35, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

To link to other major topics about the same city for those who have an interest in learning more about Phnom Penh. I created such templates about other cities: Template:Asmara, Template:Dili, Template:Kigali, etc. If/when the area gets so many articles, sections can be split off into their own, such as Template:History of London. WhisperToMe (talk) 07:49, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

I really don't see the point, but have had enough of arguments lately. You can drop the RFC and add it in if you think its an improvement. Mztourist (talk) 07:52, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

===RFC: Citywide navigational template=== Should a navigational template about the city in general ([[:Template:Phnom Penh]]) be included in this article about a historical battle that took place in the city? [[User:WhisperToMe|WhisperToMe]] ([[User talk:WhisperToMe|talk]]) 07:32, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

As per the above. Thank you!WhisperToMe (talk) 12:46, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

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