Talk:Evolutionary ideas of the Renaissance and Enlightenment

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Reason for creating article[edit]

This article was started with material moved from History of evolutionary thought in order to streamline that article.Rusty Cashman (talk) 08:41, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Goethe[edit]

There seems to be a Germanic school of evolutionary ideas, apparently much influenced by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe. Darwin refers to Geoffroy Saint-Hilaire's 'Hist. Nat. Générale,' tom. ii. p. 405, 1859 as saying "there is no doubt that Goethe was an extreme partisan of similar views, as shown in the Introduction to a work written in 1794 and 1795, but not published till long afterwards: he has pointedly remarked ('Goethe als Naturforscher,' von Dr. Karl Meding, s. 34) that the future question for naturalists will be how, for instance, cattle got their horns, and not for what they are used. It is rather a singular instance of the manner in which similar views arise at about the same time, that Goethe in Germany, Dr. Darwin in England, and Geoffroy Saint-Hilaire (as we shall immediately see) in France, came to the same conclusion on the origin of species, in the years 1794-5." (Origin, footnote to p. xiv) and goes on to refer in the footnote to p. xx to the belief that species undergo development and modification being maintained by Oken "in his mystical Natur-Philosophie." From a 1997 John Wilkins article the concept put forward of "baupläne" (bauplans, or building plans) has had a recurring influence, and is significant enough for coverage in relevant articles. Rudolf Steiner has written about Goethe, it's rather elliptical but does indicate that Goethe's ideas of metamorphosis involved evolution of species as well as spiritual metamorphosis. That's as far as I've got with this, but there does seem to have been a significant influence on Häckel and subsequent ideas of "Darwinismus" as seen in Germany. . . dave souza, talk 21:03, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The German idealist school of philosophy and the bauplane concept influenced Richard Owen and his archetypes. This is discussed briefly in Transmutation of species, but I am guessing that is not what you are talking about. The only reference I have to Goethe and and any evolutionary ideas is in Bowler (2003) p. 121 where it discusses Goethe seeking the archetypical form of plants and speculating about some kind of historical development in the vegetable kingdom. The reference he gives is a 1967 article in the Journal of the History of Ideas 28 by George A. Wells. The article is called "Goethe and Evolution". I hope this information helps. Rusty Cashman (talk) 06:14, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That paper is available through JSTOR. Rusty Cashman (talk) 15:37, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I don't actually have access to JSTOR but am a bit overwhelmed with other things to do anyway at the moment. This was really just a spin-off from other areas I'm looking at, it's just a feeling that the tendency to focus on a Lamarck > Darwin succession can miss the extent and influence of other ideas at that time. . . dave souza, talk 21:08, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the German history of evolutionary thought it important, and I have come across references to evolution from Goethe and Kant in the book 'I looked for Adam' by Herbert Wendt. There is some tantalising stuff here (see discussion on main history of evolution page), and I think it is important also because maybe the German school proceeded in a different direction, towards ?Social Darwinism, and the ?racial thought of the Nazis (this is only a speculation, but if true, it is important). There was an evolutionary paradigm/consciousnessness within Germany in the 19th century, but not? specifically from Charles Darwin, and the differences seem to be more spiritual/?mystical, for eg about Goethe Wendt says: the re;lationship between the two formative impulses ('hereditry transmission', and the 'continuous process of transformation', were 'the highest conception to which Nature has risen'). Goethe also searched for a 'primal image' to which all organisms derive, etc etc. It needs more investigation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.229.108.134 (talk) 00:01, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Since that discussion in July, material on Kant and his Critique of Judgement was added to the article. Rusty Cashman (talk) 22:22, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]