Talk:Erhard Heiden

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Erhard Heiden has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: May 31, 2015. (Reviewed version).

This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

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Death?[edit]

Info on his death and why he died in 1933 at the age of 32 would be nice. Afabbro 03:08, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Photo Gone[edit]

My knowledge of Wiki Commons is small to none, but I find it incredible that the photo was deleted. It's a 90 year old photograph of a man who was executed in the early 1930s and has no living descendents. Why was it deleted, what law did it break, and what danger was there to Wikipedia of a copyright claim. NONE. We certainly have a lot of time on our hands. :-) -OberRanks (talk) 18:55, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree but am not an expert on photo use herein. It seems to me it would fall under fair use. I have asked someone to look into it. Kierzek (talk) 19:52, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It has been re-added under fair use, thanks to Diannaa looking into it. Kierzek (talk) 00:36, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Erhard Heiden/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Biblioworm (talk · contribs) 02:06, 12 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is reasonably well written.
It is verifiable.
It is broad in its coverage.
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
It is stable.
It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
Overall:
Pass/Fail: Pass

Notes[edit]

I'm somewhat concerned about the broadness of this article. It seems to be mostly a brief narrative of the Nazis' early days, with little concerning Heiden himself. I understand that little is known about his life, but I found only about half of all the article's text directly pertains to Heiden.

I've added all the info I could find and expanded the article as best I could; it's your call! Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 14:56, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

...but was dismissed two years later mainly due to allegations about Jewish associations. — "about" -> "of"

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 14:56, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Erhard Heiden was born on 23 February 1901 in Weiler-Simmerberg, a largely Catholic city in Bavaria. — "largely" -> "mostly"

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 14:56, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In the midst of this, a small right-wing political party known as the German Workers' Party (DAP) was created and seated in Munich. — I think the date of the Nazi Party's formation would be useful here.

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 14:56, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Its political program was essentially a rejection of the terms of the Treaty of Versailles, antisemitism, and anti-Bolshevism. — "Its political program was essentially a rejection of the terms of the Treaty of Versailles" -> "It rejected the terms of the Treaty of Versailles". After this, the last two points should be reworded in such a way that clarifies that the Nazis supported antisemitism and anti-Bolshevism, since, otherwise, the sentence could be interpreted as stating that the Nazis rejected these two things.

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 14:56, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In 1920, Adolf Hitler, leader of the party, instructed Ernst Röhm, an tough war veteran and early associate, to organize an assault section to protect Nazi officials at rallies and disrupt those of their opponents. — Delete "tough"; it sounds too informal. "assault division" could be clarified; perhaps change it to "paramilitary division". Finally, what does "disrupt those of their opponents" mean? Did the division "disrupt" (I should mention that "disrupt" sounds a bit awkward to me) their opponents' leaders, or something else?

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 14:56, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Heiden became an early member of both the Nazi Party and the SA. — Delete "both".

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 14:56, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In 1923, Heiden joined a small bodyguard unit for Adolf Hitler known as the Stoßtrupp-Hitler ("Shock Troop-Hitler"). — "known as" -> "named"

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 14:56, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In 1923, Hitler felt strong enough to try and seize power in Munich. — Since the previous sentence starts with "In 1923", perhaps the same phrase in this sentence could be changed to "That same year". Also, "try and" is improper grammar; "try to" is correct.

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 14:56, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Inspired by Benito Mussolini's "March on Rome" the previous year, the Nazis aimed to first establish power in Munich and then challenge the government in Berlin, an event known as the Beer Hall Putsch. — Delete "known as the Beer Hall Putsch", and see my next comment below:

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 14:56, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

On 9 November 1923 the Stoßtrupp, along with the SA and several other paramilitary units, took part in the abortive coup d'état, resulting in the death of 16 Nazi supporters and 4 police officers. — Add the phrase deleted in the previous sentence ("known as the Beer Hall Putsch") after "coup d'état", and then add a comma after that. Also, small numbers, such as "16" and "4", are spelled out.

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 14:56, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In the aftermath of the putsch both Hitler and other Nazi leaders were incarcerated at Landsberg Prison for high treason. — "In the aftermath of" -> "After". Delete "both".

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 14:56, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Nazi Party and all associated formations, including the Stoßtrupp were officially disbanded. — Add comma after "Stoßtrupp".

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 14:56, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Biblioworm, thanks for your review, I believe I've responded to all your points. Let me know if there is anything else. Cheers, Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 14:58, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not finished yet; I just commented on what I could last night. There's only two sections remaining, though, so I should be able to review that quickly. --Biblioworm 15:01, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It was formed by Julius Schreck and included old Stosstrupp-Hitler members like Emil Maurice and Heiden. — For consistency, change "Stosstrupp" to "Stoßtrupp". Change "like" to "such as", and wikilink "Emil Maurice".

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 12:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Heiden officially joined the SS in 1925 and was an early advocate of separating the unit from its parent organization the SA. — I don't think "officially" is necessary here. The last portion of the sentence ("...and was an early advocate of separating the unit from its parent organization the SA.") would sound better as "...and was an early advocate of separating the unit from the SA, its parent organization."

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 12:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

On 1 March 1927, Joseph Berchtold handed over leadership of the SS to Heiden, who was his acting deputy. — "handed over" -> "transferred"

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 12:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Berchtold had become disillusioned by the subordination of the SS to the SA. — This wording sounds a bit clumsy. Perhaps "...became disillusioned by the SA's authority over the SS." would be better.

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 12:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Heiden as head of the SS found it difficult to function under the weight of the larger and more powerful SA. — "Heiden as head of the SS..." -> "As head of the SS, Heiden..." Delete "the weight of".

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 12:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

His intention was to create a small elite group and obtain a higher quality of recruits. — "group" -> unit"; "higher quality of recruits" -> "higher quality recruits"

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 12:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The SS declined in membership from 1000 to 280 as the SS continued to struggle under the thumb of the SA. — "The SS declined in membership from 1000 to 280" -> "The membership of the SS declined from 1000 to 280". Delete "the thumb of".

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 12:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As Heiden attempted to keep the small group from going under, Heinrich Himmler became his deputy in September 1927. — I think "going under" is too informal. How about "dissolving"?

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 12:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Himmler had a great enthusiasm and vision for the SS. Also, Himmler displayed good organisational abilities which Heiden put to work. — Combine these two sentence by adding "and" between them. "put to work" -> "used"

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 12:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Himmler became the driving force within the SS and in time went on to eclipse his boss. — "his boss" -> "Heiden"

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 12:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Even so, Heiden fell into disgrace after allegations surfaced over Jewish associations. — Delete "even so"; it doesn't seem necessary here. I'd reword "Heiden fell into disgrace after allegations surfaced over Jewish associations" to "Heiden fell into disgrace after allegations of Jewish associations surfaced".

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 12:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As the Nazis had now achieved constitutional power, they moved to swiftly eliminate all anti-Nazis and other critical elements of the movement. — I think "moved to" can be deleted. Consequently, "eliminate" should be changed to "eliminated". Also, "and other critical elements of the movement" is confusing. Besides, the sentence would likely be fine without it.

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 12:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A death list was composed which included many former Nazis who fell out with Hitler. — Add "of favor" after "fell out".

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 12:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In April 1933 Heiden was arrested on orders of Himmler by members of the Sicherheitsdienst ("Security Service"; SD), an intelligence and counterespionage department of the SS, and executed. — Move "and executed" after "arrested".

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 12:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Could the lede be expanded slightly? Currently, it's a bit too short.

Fixed. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 12:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Biblioworm, thanks for your last suggestions and overall review. I've responded and made edits accordingly. Let me know if there is anything else. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 16:42, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sources[edit]

I realize that this article has just reached GA status, but I have doubts about some of the sources. One main source is McNab. Amber publishing is a semi-vanity press outfit. They describe themselves as "a illustrated non-fiction book packaging company" [1] (yes, their website does indeed say "a illustrated"). Longerich, published by OUP says that we really don't know why Heiden was sacked. It was obviously something pretty serious given his later fate, but the "Jewish connections" stuff sounds like typical Nazi disinformation to discredit him. Adrian Weale also says nothing about Jews, but says it was probably just because he was not very good in the job, but that there was a rumour he was a police spy. Paul B (talk) 15:03, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

They state that "one of our areas of expertise is military history". Further, McNab is a respected RS source, having written/edited for Osprey Publishing on this subject of the SS, as well. The fact is little is known and the "Jewish connections" was an allegation put forth at the time, that is why it is phrased that way in the article. Since we cannot put in OR, we have to go with what little is either known or alleged at the time they got rid of him. Adding Weale is a good suggestion. Kierzek (talk) 15:22, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What OR was being suggested? There's no rule against speculation on talk pages. I'm not sure what you mean by "put forth at the time". Put forth by whom? Rumours have a habit of making themselves. Paul B (talk) 15:28, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As to "OR" I am talking in general terms as to article inclusion, not discussion on the talk page. As to your second query: "Put forth at the time of his dismissal by party members". BTW, I have Longerich, year of Pub. as 2012, not 2011. Kierzek (talk) 15:43, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you are right - 2012. Paul B (talk) 16:00, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Did not see this new section until now. Is the matter settled? Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 17:54, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, some copy edit was done with the prose tweaked and Weale was added. Kierzek (talk) 21:48, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I added some new information on Heiden and his dismissal from Michael Miller's new book, Leaders of the SS and German Police, Vol. 2 (2015), R. James Bender publisher. Kierzek (talk) 15:15, 12 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]