Talk:Elmet

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616 query[edit]

About this paragraph:-

In 616 it is reported in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle that the exiled brother of King Edwin of Northumbria was poisoned at the court of King Ceretic ap Gwallog. Edwin resolved to punish Elmet for this "crime" and his forces quickly invaded the beleaguered British territory. Within the year Elmet was overrun and Ceretic fled into exile in Gwynedd where he would die two years later.

I have a book which contains a full variorum English translation of all versions of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, and it contains no reference to this event under year 616. Anthony Appleyard 19:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's in Bede (HE, IV, xxiii, On the life and death of the Abbess Hilda) that we learn that Hild(a)'s father Hereric was poisoned at the court of Cerdic "king of the Britons". Higham, Kingdom of Northumbria, table on p. 80, puts Hereric's death c. 604. Paint me cynical, but if that date is correct, I'd be inclined to think it was Æthelfrith's doing. On the other hand, Barbara Yorke, Kings and Kingdoms of Early Anglo-Saxon England, table on p. 76, dates Hereric's death c. 613. Ceretic died c. 616 according to the dating in the Annales Cambriae, making the current version impossible. It appears to be derived from Kessler, who paraphrases Nennius (lxiii): "Edwin, son of Ælle, reigned 17 years. He occupied Elmet and expelled Ceretic, king of that country." Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum: Nick Higham (An English empire, The Kingdom of Northumbria) takes the view that the easiest way to solve the chronological problems is to assume that an x escaped somewhere in the copying of the Annales Cambriae and that Ceretic map Gwallog died in 626 rather than 616. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:30, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Elmetiacos[edit]

What does Elmetiacos mean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.157.197.13 (talk) 00:04, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's Latin, the accusative plural of "Elmetiacus" (See also Latin declensions). --Ekki01 (talk) 21:10, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I only just noticed this little note - is the accusative a mistake then, or is the intended sense "Aliotus is going to the Elmetians"? Paul S (talk) 11:25, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Defensive Earthworks[edit]

More recent research suggests that the earthworks, known as Becca Banks, were not constructed by Elmet but were much earlier. According to An Archaeological Research Agenda for West Yorkshire The Iron Age and Romano-British Periods, "South Dyke and Becca Banks were investigated during the M1-A1 Link Road scheme. Although artefacts were sparse,14C dates suggested both were constructed during the later Iron Age. The ditch of Becca Banks was possibly re-cut in the Roman period, and was still extant centuries laterwhen it formed a edieval township, parish and wapentake boundary (Wheelhouse and Burgess 2001: 137, 144, 148). A few radiocarbon dates obtained from samples of ditch ills from Grim’s Ditch suggested an earlier Iron Age origin, with possible redefinition and re-use in the Roman period (Morris 1999; Wheelhouse and Burgess 2001)"

Although they perhaps had some significance or use in the 6th-Century, their construction in this period seems to have been disproven by the archaeology. Paul S (talk) 18:04, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody has anything to say on this? Removing the dubious sentence. Paul S (talk) 00:16, 23 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox changes[edit]

Summary of changes:

Barwick as capital depended on the earthworks being Elmetian which has been shown not to be the case.
Leeds probably was the capital (Bede) but it isn't certain
Paganism in the C.7th? No evidence it was official
We aren't certain that anyone but Certic was actually king. Gwallog probably was, we don't know anything about his ancestors being kings of Elmet.
Romans aren't really important here.

Paul S (talk) 23:43, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Large Number of Brittonic Placenames"[edit]

...such as what exactly? Leaving aside river names, which are Celtic or pre-Celtic all over England anyway, we have Leeds itself, Otley Chevin (<*kebno-, Welsh cefn) and... that seems to be about it. The same with eccles and wal names, I can only find Eccleshill in Bradford and even that one is dubious, and Walden Stubbs further East. Paul S (talk) 00:19, 22 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody got any of these Brittonic placenames, in spite of their "large number"? Removing the paragraph, then. Paul S (talk) 00:13, 23 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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I have been told that Arthuis of Elmet didn't exist.[edit]

What are the sources for his existence?--JaredMithrandir (talk) 19:40, 5 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The names are from a Welsh genealogy, supposing that Ceretic/Certic of the AS Chronicle is the same as the Welsh Ceredig ap Gwallog. They are his ancestors, but it doesn't follow that they were also Kings of Elmet. Paul S (talk) 20:31, 5 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]