Talk:Ellis Island/Archive 1

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Archive 1

1903 Video - No record of ship 'William Myers'

Ellis island's Ship Search doesn't show a ship named William Myers, which is the ship in the video according to the Library of Congress. What gives? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scewing (talk • contribs) 19:50, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Status re New York versus New Jersey?

I find that I'm slightly puzzled by the status of Ellis Island. Our article (and the park service web site) says "Ellis Island is managed by the National Park Service and is jointly part of both the states of New Jersey and New York." A 1998 CNN story, New Jersey wins claim to Ellis Island, says "The high court, by a 6-3 vote, declared that Ellis Island, the site of the landmark U.S. immigration processing center from the 1890s until 1954, belongs largely to New Jersey in a case that mainly involved symbolic bragging rights. As a result, most of the island in New York Harbor from now on must be considered Ellis Island, New Jersey.... The Supreme Court agreed that New Jersey could claim the land to the low-water mark. But the justices also agreed with the Clinton administration that it could not adjust the original boundary to avoid splitting buildings." It doesn't matter re the Statue of Liberty article, but these two statements ("Jointly part of both" and "belongs largely to New Jersey") don't seem to be perfectly equivalent. Perhaps there was some later agreement? [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 18:09, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

  • Nice stuff! Thanks to those who have contributed. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 23:17, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This is a result of simplifying a complex issue. The Supreme Court decision said that the original island remained part of New York, while all man-made, artificially created portions of Ellis Island were part of New Jersey. Difficulties then arose around the fact that this boundary overlapped some of the buildings. The difficulties were not urgent, however, because the entire Ellis Island is owned by the Federal Government and should not present a problem unless or until they decide to sell.

Date of closing?

Can someone check the date of closing? The BBC claims it was 12th November. TMillerCA added that information on 12th November last year. Maveric149 soon changed it to 29th November. A web search shows about equal numbers of both claims. Which is correct? Or are they both correct, depending exactly what you are reckoning as "closed"? Anyone able to check definitively? Stephen Turner 18:26, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

PedanticallySpeaking kindly asked this question on Wikipedia:Reference desk. The following replies are copied from there. Stephen Turner 10:49, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Both the NPS and Statue of Liberty/Ellis Island Foundation use the vague "November, 1954". Rmhermen 23:25, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)
I am extremely confused. I've found the 12th, the 19th, and the 29th all listed in about equal occurances. If I were to make a stab in the dark guess, one might speculate that the last detainee may have finished processing on the early date, but with the employees of the emigration service not offically moving off the island until the later date, or something like that. Just thinking out loud. func(talk) 06:55, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for your research. Yes, I wondered about something like func is suggesting. Or maybe the arrival of the last immigrant on the island and his dispatch. Maybe I should change the article to say merely "November 1954" for the moment? Unless someone actually wants to call, or write to, the museum's curators? Stephen Turner 10:01, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've now edited it to say just "November 1954". Stephen Turner 11:35, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I also found the following discussion on Talk:November 12. Stephen Turner 11:45, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Nope - happened on November 29 and 12 million were processed. --mav 01:33, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)
New York Times says it happened on 11/12. [1] What's the source for 11/29? Perhaps we should contact National Park Service for date. --User:TMillerCA 03:42, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

It seems to depend on your definition of "closing." The New York Times of November 13, 1954, reported that the last alien processed at Ellis Island departed "yesterday," meaning November 12th. But was that closed? Edward J. Shaughnessy, INS New York District Director, said in the article that personnel had largely transferred to the Manhattan office and furniture and equipment were still being moved elsewhere. Another New York Times article of November 30 reported the last run of the Ellis Island ferry on November 29th. The ferry docked in the slip at Ellis Island where it remains today (rotting under water). One is probably safe to say it closed in "late November 1954."

ʟ==Apparent contradiction==

This paragraph seems to contradict itself:

>The port opened on January 1, 1892 and was closed in November 1954 but not before processing more than 20 million immigrants (12 million of which were allowed to pass through). After 1924, Ellis Island was only used for detainees and refugees, ordinary immigrants were processed through other facilities. Of these 20 million, only about two percent were denied admission to the U.S. and sent back to their countries of origin.

In one place it says that 12 million out of 20 million were allowed to pass through. In another, it says only 2% (or 2 million) were denied entry. Which is it? Moncrief 08:15, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

Asking the question above again in case someone who knows has this on their watchlist. Moncrief 05:15, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)
I have it on my watchlist and saw the question earlier, but I did not contribute either of the pieces of information and have no idea what the answer is. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:46, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The original 12 million part existed in the article for quite a while. The 2% part was added by User:69.201.141.151. According to this site, the values were 12 million and 2%, not 20 million. (Using Google never comes up with a value of 20 million, only 22 million anyhow). According to this comment on this site, the 22 million isn't factually correct, so I'm changing the value to 12 million and deleting the 20 million. (this is a good example of a problem of not citing sources) AndyZ 22:39, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd love to see one good source for any of these numbers. I tried to track all this down once, and will tell you what I recall. The number 12 million is traditional and was typically given in mid-20th c. printed works relating to the number of immigrants who variously "passed through," "came through," or "were admitted at" Ellis Island between 1892 and 1924. Not until much later, when the restoration of Ellis Island began, did the number begin to be attached to the entire life of Ellis Island, 1892-1954. Then, as fundraising activity for the monument became more heated, the number of immigrants inexplicably began to grow. It went from 12 million to 17 million, then to 20 million. Now I see it grew to 22 million. None of this addresses the number of immigrants refused entry. The 2% exclusion rate is probably accurate for the entire period 1892-1954, it would be just slightly lower for the years 1892-1924.

Andy:

I am Jaffer and I added the external video link to Ellis Island. Can you pleease restore it? This is a great video clip and not SPAM. Yes, there is a commercial, but it is well worth it.

I have discussed this with several Amins now...this is copyrighted video and legal to use. You can see my discussion of this on my page. Jaffer 15:11, 15 January 2006 (UTC) Jaffer

Your links don't comply with WP:EL (read "What should not be linked to".) The site itself looks like spam just because of all the ads (this again is contrary to WP:EL.) I believe you've been asked to stop and you have, which seperates you from most typical vandals. Spamming talk pages doesn't really seem like a good idea though. Mrtea (talk) 00:44, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Didn't notice your post on your talk page; thanks for understanding. Mrtea (talk) 01:04, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Relevancy of the following:

What is the relevancy of the following statement, which I just removed from Ellis_Island#Legacy?

Immigrant children provided a link to the American culture, for their parents who knew nothing of it. Perhaps if you were living in these days and came home to your parents, claiming you learned nothing, you'd get a beating.

Pinano 03:50, 24 February 2006 (UTC) Your links don't comply with WP:EL (read "What should not be linked to".) The site itself looks like spam just because of all the ads (this again is contrary to WP:EL.) I believe you've been asked to stop and you have, which seperates you from most typical vandals. Spamming talk pages doesn't really seem like a good idea though. Mrtea (talk) 00:44, 18 January 2006 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.138.121.74 (talk)

US article on featured candidate

Just to let you guys know, the United States article is on featured article candidates list, so you can cast your vote there- or not.--Ryz05 19:37, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

problem with map

The map on this page show Ellis Island as being in Kansas. Can someone more skilled than me fix that?

Yes the Locator_Dot.svg‎ is misplaced! Urgent! 84.161.77.98 11:51, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

Someone is vandalizing this page. Heads up. Can someone flag it or somesuch?

Most of the article has been removed - bit by bit. It will require a serious effort to go through the history for the last nine months or so and restore all the missing sections of this article. More than I can do today. Rmhermen 17:13, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I think I have sorted it out. Rmhermen 03:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


i dont understand it i need help


I undid vandalism by 71.196.84.29--Teda13 (talk) 01:38, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Correct Location?

From Ellis Island article: "The Statue of Liberty ... is actually on nearby Liberty Island, which is about 1/2 mile to the South."

From Liberty Island article: "It is separated from nearby Ellis Island by approximately 1 mi (1.6 km)."

So what is the actual location of these 2 islands, and the distance separating them? Maybe somebody fluent with GPS or Google Maps or TerraServer could find an accurate distance? T-bonham 07:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Where is Oyster Island?

Special Inquiry

The section named "Special Inquiry" was copied directly from another web site [[2]], which happens to have a copyright message on it. This is a copyright violation. I removed the section from this Wikipedia article.[[3]] Quacks Like a Duck 20:29, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


There's another slip in the passage where the abreviations of the chalk marks are explained. B is Back here, on the original source page it is BLACK.

Holding camp?

I know Emma Goldman and others taken during the Palmer Raids were held here before being deported... was that a common usage for Ellis Island? gren グレン 08:51, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Immigrants list

Nikola Tesla should also stay on the list. (IB) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.109.40.94 (talk) 14:57, 20 October 2007 (UTC) bela lagosi is listed twice —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.14.148.46 (talk) 21:03, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Coordinates

There are two sets of coordinates provided in the article, one in the "Infobox_protected_area" template in the lead and one in the "Geolinks-cityscale" template at the end. In my browser, they produce similar information which ends up as two images overlayed on top of each other (upper right corner), slightly displaced and in different font sizes, making it more or less impossible to view either of them. Since they appear to be mutually incompatible, one of them should be removed but I don't know which one? Any suggestion? --KYN (talk) 13:25, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

The Infobox is nonsense

There is no such thing as an Ellis Island National Monument. Ellis Island was proclaimed as Part of the Statue of Liberty National Monument in 1956 and that never changed: http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/print.php?pid=75266. I plan to remove the box sometimes this weekend, if no one else does it before that or give convincing reason, why it should be kept. --h-stt !? 20:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to Rmhermen, for editing the infobox. But I'm still not happy with it. Wouldn't it be better to use a simple box like in Alcatraz, as I don't believe it is useful to have the combined area of Liberty Island and Ellis Island as well as the bogus IUCN-status in the box here. --h-stt !? 09:50, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Shorten the list

I feel that the famous immigrant list is too long. I would suggest that it be limited to 15 or so names. It currently has 42 entries. At the least some kind of criteria needs to be applied for who is listed. Rmhermen (talk) 19:59, 7 April 2009 (UTC)


Unreliable sources?

Some of the cites in section "Name changes" (and possibly other sections - I haven't checked) seem to fail WP:RELIABLE. Bad cites are if anything worse than no cites, because they give the impression of adequate research where it doesn't really exist. -- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 03:54, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Missing history between island's purchase by Ellis and becoming an immigration site?

It seems to me that there were probably other federal buildings on the island before it became and immigration center, as the pirate Charles Gibbs was hung on the island. Anyone know anything about this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.99.115.242 (talk) 20:56, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Blue Prints Please

I happened to be doing a history project on Ellis Island and I needed blue prints and I noticed that there are no blue prints. Soooo..... I guess my question can anyone find blue prints. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.103.123.79 (talk) 19:32, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Class

I have change evaluation of this article as it does not contain sufficient inline citations to qualify for B-class.Djflem (talk) 16:55, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Peer review asessment (imported)

Ruhrfisch comments: This is a good start on an important topic, but still needs more work if it is to become a WP:GA, and much more for WP:FA. Here are some suggestions for improvement.

  • Typically articles are not accepted for peer review if they have major clean up banners in place - the Ownership and In the arts sections need to have their banners addressed
  • The toolbox in the upper right corner of this peer review finds several issues that need to be worked on. The automated tips have several useufl suggestions. There are 5 or so disambiguation links that need to be fixed too.
  • The external links tool finds two dead links. One of them is to Geocities.com, which is not a reliable source. The article also lacks alt text per WP:ALT (this is no longer a requirement for FAC though)
  • The lead is very short for an article of this length and needs to be expanded per WP:LEAD. The lead should be an accessible and inviting overview of the whole article.
  • Nothing important should be in the lead only - since it is a summary, it should all be repeated in the body of the article itself
  • My rule of thumb is to include every header in the lead in some way
  • Article needs more references, for example the Staff and In the arts sections have no refs at all, and the block quote in Ownership needs a ref too. My rule of thumb is that every quote, every statistic, every extraordinary claim and every paragraph needs a ref.
  • Many of the reference have incomplete information. Internet refs need URL, title, author if known, publisher and date accessed. {{cite web}} and other cite templates may be helpful. See WP:CITE and WP:V
  • Images should not sandwich text between them, but this happens in at least two places in the article.
  • File:AnnieMoore.jpg is of a sculpture and so is a copyrighted work of art. If it was produced as a work for hire for the US Goveernment it owuld be Public Domain (free to use), but more information is needed.
  • There are some places with short (one or two sentence) paragraphs - these disturb the flow of the article and should be combined with others or perhaps expanded.
  • There are also two extensive lists - staff and medical. Could these be converted to text / prose?
  • [The See also section is usually saved for links which are not already used in the article]

Hope this helps. If my comments are useful, please consider peer reviewing an article, especially one at Wikipedia:Peer review/backlog (which is how I found this article). I do not watch peer reviews, so if you have questions or comments, please contact me on my talk page. Yours, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 00:07, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Legacy Section: Getting Citizenship error

The last sentence in the Legacy section is written incorrectly:

In order to become a U.S. citizen, immigrants did not had to pass exams, including reading, writing, and a U.S. history exam. An immigrant did not had to renounce their citizenship from their mother country.

Someone who knows which "did not had" should become "did not have" or "had" should fix this.

jjust wondering

Hi, Concerned student here. I have to do a report on the connections between the S of L and EI You seem to have nothing on this topic.

lock the page

I think that you should put a lock on the page, as my school is doing a report on EI, and it's been vandalized a couple of times in the past week. by the way its my schools IP send replys to [Email Address Removed]

Acreage

area area-calculator

  1. ^ National Institute of Standards and Technology (n.d.). General Tables of Units of Measurement
  2. ^ National Park Service: Ellis Island

USS Hersey

Alot of immigrants came thru the island on numerous ships the USS Hersey was among them in fact everyone who came on the USS Hersey throughout the years came through Ellis Island among them many of german descent who after the war wanted to come to the U.S.to make a better life for their families; they would stop at Ellis Island and go through the procedures previously mentioned, they were sponsered by people or churches in other states , they would leave the island go into the mainland get on trains to their destination including New York & Illinois, and many immigrants didn't even know who sponsered them until they arrived to their destination and then the sponsers would take a look at the families and sponsor them in this country and provide jobs for them. In Hans Von Glidden's 1956 book titled "Brand New Horizons" OOP, he talks about his two trips to the island arriving in 1952 and then again in 1954, in that year (1954)he paid homage to arriving at Ellis Island, sadly it was closed that final year, he came in from Germany in 1952 on the USS Hersey ( in which he talks extensively about conditions and the many people he met on board the ship and mentions many immigrants by their names in his book) and came into Ellis Island along with two friends from Yugoslavia, and in detail talk about leaving the ship going thru the procedures on the island and then getting sponsered by a midwest family.

Elevation????

Is it possible that Ellis could be high (46ft/7m) as cited in infox w/ref? Two other land masses are nearby. Liberty State Park is cited 7ft/2m and Liberty Island at 0ft/0ft from same source. Leads one to think the source must be incorrect since Ellis is not significantly higher than either. Verifiable? Yes. Correct? Unlikely? Ellis is a flat island. Think discretion must be used here, and suggest entry be removed until another better ref can be found Djflem (talk) 21:25, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

better source? http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnispublic/f?p=150:3:1417806468087358::NO::P3_FID,P3_TITLE:876159,Ellis%20Island — Preceding unsigned comment added by Djflem (talk • contribs) 16:26, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Ellis Island and Liberty Island

Is one the added part of the other? Is one the old name for the other? Are they just two names for the one Island? This sould be made clear, including which is which. şṗøʀĸşṗøʀĸ: τᴀʟĸ

They are two separate islands. I tried to clarify the article a little. Station1 (talk) 05:21, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

this isn't in concerns to Liberty Island, but rather that there is no hyperlink to New York City as there is to Jersey City in the upper right corner info box on the page~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.252.92.181 (talk) 15:49, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Location

The history of state boundaries in and across Eliis Island is complicated and a bit confusing, and it seems that we need a discussion of how to best describe it. I don't think the article should include inacurate statements like "it is located in Jersey City". Fitnr 19:03, 16 November 2013 (UTC) Fitnr 19:03, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

The island is located within the borders of Jersey City. 3.3 acres of it are exclave that are territory of New York. Pretty straightforward.Djflem (talk) 19:41, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Do you think that there's an appreciable difference between "X is located in Jersey City" and "X is located within the borders of Jersey City"? I don't think that there is one, nor do I think that the typical reader would. Isn't it much simpler to say that the island is divided between NYC and JC? In my experience, exclave is more typically used for areas surrounded by the land of another jurisdiction. What's your source for applying it to Ellis Island? Fitnr 16:50, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Simpler, but imprecise. X is located in Jersey City, 3.3 acres of it are territory of NYC, surrounded, except for a short quai, by the land of New Jersey.Djflem (talk) 18:55, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
It's not imprecise at all to say that it's divided between NYC and Jersey City, it's indisputably true. On the other hand, it's clearly wrong to state that the island is in Jersey City. Fitnr 16:19, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

It's indisputably true that the island is located in JC and that on that island there are 3.3 landlocked acres that are territory of NYC, which is much more precise than "divided between". Djflem (talk) 21:25, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

What is with this

barn shaped scaffolding thing in front of the main building under that glorified wheelchair ramp? It's like the Louvre all over again. 71.34.240.167 (talk) 03:22, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Would you please explain what you mean? Maybe some temporary scaffolding during repair work connected with Sandy? --h-stt !? 11:07, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Lead Image

I have updated the lead image with a aerial photo of the whole island that also shows its proximity to the NJ shoreline and Jersey City. The picture of the building is not representative of the island as a whole. talk→ WPPilot  17:03, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

The article is not primarily about the island. It is about the immigration station which the older image illustrated much better, both in theme and technical merit. Your image might be useful in the geography or legal dispute sections - but not in the lead. Rmhermen (talk) 18:27, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
Agree. Besides, the new aerial image, File:Ellis Island photo D Ramey Logan.jpg, shows New Jersey in the background as well. It's not a bad image, but honestly it's not the optimum image that we can have of Ellis Island, and when most people think of this island, they think of immigration, not of geographical features. Epicgenius (talk) 20:38, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
NBD. it looks fine in the location that it is in now. Cheers! talk→ WPPilot  14:47, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Ellis Island Museum - Peopling of America galleries

As I have received an email that this opens today - can I mention [4] for inclusion 'here or wherever'. Jackiespeel (talk) 16:35, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Artificial island

As seen here, a good portion of Ellis is an artificial island. What was once know as Island 2 and Island 3 were created separately and not as extension as of the original island. https://www.nps.gov/elis/learn/education/upload/9-12-Ellis-Island-Map.pdf Djflem (talk) 21:54, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

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