Talk:Egypt national football team

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Fair use rationale for Image:Egypt FA.gif[edit]

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"Egyptian Soccer Achievements"[edit]

What is going on with that "list of achievements"? The five African Cup of Nations wins are subsumed below the likes of the World Military Cup, World Youth Cup, Mediterranean Games, Francophone Games etc (none of which has anything to do with the actual subject of the article, the Egypt national team), and then they're followed by futsal and indoor five-a-side trophies. And then a list of accomplishments by Egyptian clubs, which again have nothing to do with the Egypt national team. What's that all about, then? 90.201.136.209 21:06, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Red border - African Nations Cup record box[edit]

some cells have a red border around them, but there isn't a key to explain what this signifies. Grunners (talk) 21:39, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Red bordered cells are African Nations Cup championships were held in egypt[edit]

  • Red bordered cells are African Nations Cup championships were held in egypt and

Won by Egypt. explanation had been added to the section,I think there is no other common denominator.Albicelestes (talk) 03:28, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Record[edit]

How could they be undefeated after 20 matches from 2004-2010? They lost to Algeria did they not? If they had not, they would be in the World Cup! (talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.29.1.114 (talk) 07:49, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

19 matches in the African Cup of Nations, not in general of course.

Mohamed Magdy (talk) 14:18, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking of record, I have here a raw of the records table, if you want it to reformat the dates.Mohamed Magdy (talk) 19:21, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ranking[edit]

The highest-ranking date, according to FIFA website, is in February 2010, Not January 2010, I set it to February but someone reedited it. Thanks, Mohamed Magdy (talk) 14:19, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Friendly vs. Spain[edit]

Can we get a reference to the match mentioned in the fixtures table about a friendly match between Egypt and Spain?
Mohamed Magdy (talk) 13:53, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have found a reference for that [1]Mohamed Magdy (talk) 12:08, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think this match has been cancelled since Spain are shown on FIFA.com [2] and the Spanish FA website [3] as playing South Korea on 3 June. I can't find any mention of why the plans have changed on English or Spanish language media: perhaps an Arabic speaker can search Egyptian websites. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ruanova (talk • contribs) 14:27, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Al Sajidin?[edit]

Maybe this is a de facto nickname, but not official. Newspapers do not call the team as so. Neither media. Merely some commentators. Mohamed Magdy, Thank You! (talk) 23:55, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the Pharoahs isn't the official name either (there's no such thing as an official nickname), but the Pharoahs is the most popular nickname followed by Muntakhab el-Sajideen, which roughly translates to 'The Team of Prostrators'
Here's an article by Arabic CNN, using the nickname in the headline: http://arabic.cnn.com/2010/sport/8/12/egypt.congo/index.html
Here's an Arabic blog using the same name: http://mhg1962.wordpress.com/2009/06/24/%D9%85%D9%86%D8%AA%D8%AE%D8%A8-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B3%D8%A7%D8%AC%D8%AF%D9%8A%D9%86/
Another article by Saudi newspaper Elaph, http://www.elaph.com/Web/opinion/2010/3/539685.html
I remember reading an article by The Guardian which referred to the team by the same name, but I can't seem to find it now. Hobapotter (talk) 11:40, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Found it, http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/jan/29/egypt-football-religion
I would also like to thank you for your contributions here, I know you're an active writer on Egyptian sport. Hobapotter (talk) 11:44, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is This Over?[edit]

You know, there was a problem in Port-Sayid where lot of fans died in a big fight, after that Egypt's president said soccer was over for a while, so, are they still active? are they participating for the world cup? I don't know! can someone find something?

record win[edit]

Should their be two seperate record wins, one for United Arab Republic and one for Egypt because the UAR was made up of two countries, it wasn't just a predecessor of Egypt. 82.27.242.159 (talk) 12:17, 24 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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RfC about Christian exclusion and controversy[edit]

Participants appear to have reached an agreeable consensus that this content is more appropriately addressed in the article for Egyptian Football Association. Alsee (talk) 06:25, 28 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Christians comprise about 10-20% of Egypt's population, the majority of which are Coptic Orthodox Christians[1]. However, there is not a single Christian on any of the league's 540 roster spots, or the national team. This disparity is believed to be due to the bias against accepting young talented Christian players at the clubs' youth level throughout the national[2][3].

There have been complaints from the pro Christian group Coptic Solidarity filed to FIFA regarding the purposeful exclusion of Christians from the league, as well as their exclusion from Egypt's national team. A similar complaint was filled by Coptic Solidarity to the International Olympics Committee regarding the similar exclusion of Christians on Egypt's Olympic teams. The exclusions are cited as being systemic persecution against the Coptic Christians. Neither FIFA nor the IOC has taken action or conducted independent research to investigate these complaints[4][5].

I believe that the content content that Sllabib is trying to add to the article shouldn't be added to the article not because it's only wrong, but I believe that things like that should be included in the article. Both of us discussed this problem on my talk page, and despite I gave many examples that proves that there is no religion discrimination in Egypt, we didn't reach anything. So I think more opinions should be heard about this case. Ben5218 (talk) 21:52, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that the opposition I am facing from Ben5218 is not legitimate and rooted in bias. See our discussion below.Sllabib (talk) 22:28, 3 September 2018 (UTC) [reply]

  • Discusion

You removed a section on the Egyptian premier league page; simply removing a section without a valid reason is not only frustrating, but qualifies as Tendentious editing. Everyone is welcome to add/edit content, provided there are legitimate references. Simply deleting content in this manner is contrary to wiki guidelines.

Regarding the validity of this content, there are good sources cited, including from The Atlantic[6], a well respected publication from the United States. Furthermore, there are more citations in this small section (5), than the rest of the entire article.

To expand on one of the facts cited, there being 0 Christians in the league out of 540 players [7], this is not only improbable, but is a statistical impossibility if you believe that Christians face no prejudice. Egypt is comprised of 10-20% Christian[8], using 15% as the percentage Christian, the probability for there being 0 Christians out of 540 players if they were all chosen without partiality, is 8x10-39, or .0000000000000000000000000000000000008%. In other words, this is an impossibility. You cannot say that this is a "minor" issue. Given the stated facts, as well as the references cited, the existence of prejudice, or at least a bias, is beyond debate.

Hello. I can see that you are clearly defending your opinion and trying to prove it right, but unfortunately it's not correct. We are not talking about sources and similar things here, we are talking about facts and reality. First of all, there was a Christian player playing for Al Nasr in the previous season, the 2017–18 season, called John "Manga" Nabil (Arabic: جون نبيل) who played almost all of the club's fixtures during that season; simply anyone who deserves to play will play. Second, there has been 9 different managers during the last 20 years who managed the Egypt national football team, 5 of them weren't from Egypt which obviously means they aren't Muslim. Don't you think that - if what you are trying to prove is actually right - the Egyptian Football Association wouldn't sign them and look for someone else instead? Think about it. Last thing, there has been many Christian players who presented the national team and played in the Egyptian Premier League, most famous are Hany Ramzy, who played for Al Ahly and represented Egypt in the 1990 FIFA World Cup; Ashraf Youssef, who won the 1993 African Cup of Champions Clubs with Zamalek and Helmy Toulan, who spent more than 9 years playing for Zamalek and managed many Egyptian Premier League teams. I really hope that all of this will make you reconsider your edits and realize that what you are doing is simply making readers think that religion discrimination exists in Egypt. I'll revert your edits in this period until something happens. Ben5218 (talk) 16:59, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your statement that everyone who deserves to play will play. The only thing you've added to the discussion is that there have been a handful of Christians in the last 30 years or so, and this can be reflected in the article. However the argument still stands, and the facts remain the same; this does not disprove that a bias exists. The fact that the percentage of Christians is not proportional to the population can only be explained by 2 possible solutions. One: Christians are athletically and skillfully less talented than muslims (good luck finding a credible scientific source to back that up). Or two, there is a bias against Christians.

I challenge you to read the Atlantic article, you will find an argument for the latter of the two possibilies . I also challenge you to respond with facts not an opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sllabib (talk • contribs) 21:31, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hello again. Well I don't know what else to say, we are just making a problem out of nothing. I don't think that any website would just start talking about why there isn't many Christian players in Egypt. Simply there isn't many Christian footballers, and that doesn't mean that there is a bias against Christians. And about that Atlantic article, it's content is just proving that terrorism in Egypt mainly targets Christians, and that was year ago. Terrorist group ISLL-SP claimed those attacks, and acts done by terrorists shouldn't be linked to what the people actually think of. Also, I believe that this should be done at the talk page of the article. Ben5218 (talk) 22:39, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your response. However, for the second time, you failed to provide any factual explanation as to explain the disparate number of christians in football. I will respond to a few of your comments.

"Simply there isn't [aren't] many Christian footballers, and that doesn't mean that there is a bias against Christians." What then is the explanation? You cannot ignore this fact, you have to explain it. Chance does not explain it; the probability if it were up to chance is .0000000000000000000000000000000000008% (see above). One reason, mentioned in the Atlantic article, is that young Christian footballers don't have the same opportunity for advancement as their muslim counterparts. In other words, a bias.

"terrorism in Egypt mainly targets Christians, and that was year ago." Your naïveté is almost comical. Persecution, both violent and civic, has been happening against christians since the islamic invasion. You can educate yourself about the violent history here: persecution against the Coptic Christians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sllabib (talk • contribs) 14:24, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well.. Being an Egyptian and a Muslim makes me know what I'm saying and what's going on. You have been saying that there's no Christian players in the national team right? If so, then what does this has to do with the team? Simply nothing. The manager picks who fits to be in the squad, if there is no Christian players who deserves to play in the squad, then it's not the manager's or the team's fault.

And if you want to talk about the numbers, then can you tell me why there is no Muslim players in England? Islam is the largest non-Christian religion in England, with more than %6 of the population of England are Muslims, yet there is no Muslim player in the national team. Also there has been many attacks on mosques in England, most recently in Birmingham a few weeks ago.[9] Should we say that there there is a bias against Muslims in England because of that? Absolutely no.

Why would a country that hates Christians would sign foreign players who are Christian? Why would a country that hates Christians would make a Christian the assistant manager of the national team? You are just to convince yourself that you are right, while unfortunately you are not. Also, the articles you provided have nothing to do with football, just political things. Wikipedia isn't a place to put your opinion on, it's a place to share and add facts and useful things. Think about it. Ben5218 (talk) 16:38, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad you stated that wiki isn't a place for opinion, I agree. Having one Christian assistant manager, the only relavent fact you have stated, does not explain why there are currently 0 christians in a country that is 10-20% christian. I've asked you several times to make a counterargument, backed by facts, and you have failed to do so. I'm also glad that you cited this article for protection, because you clearly have inherent biases yourself, and cannot objectively evaluate the matter. I am reverting your unlawful removal of this section, which is factually based, and well cited. You are welcome to insert any facts you have to counter the argument. Leave your opinion at door.

Regarding muslims in England, maybe you should research the matter. It is however irrelevant to this discussion.Sllabib (talk) 20:42, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have anything else to add right now. Simply you are avoiding what I'm saying. I've requested a RFC at the talk page of the article to hear more opinions and see what other editors and people would say. This discussion will be continued there after hearing their opinion. Ben5218 (talk) 21:57, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please tell me what it is you are saying that I am avoiding. I've responded to all of your comments, and you've failed to answer mine. Sllabib (talk) 22:20, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]


Hello,

I usually don't contribute but I saw the comments and had to say something. From the discussion and cited articles I have to agree with Sllabib's position as it is both compelling and evidence-based. There isn’t much substance to Ben5218’s counterarguments.

I noticed that Ben5218 states that “there is no religion discrimination in Egypt”. This statement is either made in ignorance or deceit and is utterly false. Sadly, there is discrimination.[10] [11] To say there isn’t is to avoid a problem that the country should address to improve itself.

The counterargument by Ben5218 about managers and players is also lacking. Ben5218 states that there have been non-Egyptian managers as if that proves there is no discrimination. A manager is one cog in the larger machine, they are not the entire machine. The system at large discriminates against Christian players and weeds them out, preventing them from progressing. It doesn’t matter as much who the manager is because the Christian athletes rarely get far enough to where their fate is in the hands of a manger. They are usually excluded long before this as Egyptian futbol player Ahmen Hossam (aka Mido) revealed in an interview. [12]

Lastly Ben5218 mentioned one Christian player who was on the national team in the 1990s. The exception is not the rule. The argument provided above is not that there have never been any Christian players on the national team. The argument from the facts is that there is discrimination against Christian athletes. When Jackie Robinson played in the MLB did that mean that racism and discrimination against African Americans had ended? Or did it mean that there was never any real discrimination to begin with? Absolutely not

Ben5218’s position to me seems dangerous and ill-informed. Very few references and very persistent with his opinions and point of view in spite of compelling evidence to the contrary. GlorfindeI (talk) 04:30, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Are you expecting that some websites would just talk about that there is no bias against Christian? Surely no.
[The argument provided above is not that there have never been any Christian players on the national team. The argument from the facts is that there is discrimination against Christian athletes.] If that's the truth, then I believe that this shouldn't be included in the article. This is not related to the national team. Maybe it should be added to the sports section in this article.
Also don't get me wrong, but it's weird that a user's first contribution on Wikipedia is standing with another user against the other. Looks kind of fishy to me. Ben5218 (talk) 13:30, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ben5218: Use of an ad hominem argument in your response is both evasive and demonstrates how lacking your position is. You have no concrete evidence. In response to evidence from respected news sources such as CNN, The Atlantic, The New York Times, Forbes, and in response to insider insight provided by an Egyptian futbal player you provide nothing supporting your claim. So you are forced to repeat your own personal opinions over an over again hoping they stick and you fool everyone. That's not going to fly. Merely repeating your opinions doesn’t make them true or credible, regardless of how smugly you do it. You seem to have an agenda to suppress or manipulate the truth. In the age of information warfare we unfortunately live in, I hope the editors are wise to this and tread carefully GlorfindeI (talk) 14:17, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well.. There is no sources I can find to prove you wrong, and we spent enough time discussing this. If you still believe that this should be included, then please don't add it to Egypt national football team, Egyptian Premier League or any other football related article; as it's not the right place to add it. Maybe another article like Culture of Egypt#Sports or anything similar would be a good place, something that talk about all sports in general, not a specific sport like football. I have no further comments to add. Thanks for your work. Ben5218 (talk) 15:00, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to generally finding Sllabib's arguments more persuasive, I would like to draw attention to a distinction between "Christian" and "Copt"--while Copts certainly are Christians, they have historically faced more persecution in Egypt than Christians of other denominations, and there is ample coverage in reliable sources that would indicate that they are treated differently than other Christians in Egypt. (Various sources: [13], [14], [15], as well as more coverage at Copts in Egypt, Religion in Egypt, Persecution of Copts). Thus, demonstrating that Egyptian clubs are happy to sign Christian players and coaches from abroad does not necessarily demonstrate a lack of discrimination against Copts. Rosguilltalk 17:59, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sllabib: With that being said, I believe that my solution would work for both parties. I'd say that you should edit your original content to a similar thing and add it to another article like the one I mentioned above. Because after thinking about it, this is not the right article to add something like that. Ben5218 (talk) 16:25, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Ben5218: While I appreciate that you are the only one of the dozens of people who attempted to remove this section, that has actually attempted to have a dialogue about this, I again disagree. The above discussions suggest a bias, i believe institutionalized discrimination, but lets just stick with bias. Now you are suggesting that the mention of this bias on the pages of the institutions where this bias has its most significant effect (the national team, and the EPL) is not fitting? Should we also remove the mention of the racism from the Major League Baseball wiki as well and bury it in some obscure USA culture article?Sllabib (talk) 16:53, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I am slightly more partial to Ben's request that this content be moved, as it isn't directly relevant to the national team, but rather to Egyptian football as a whole. That having been said, I don't know that Culture of Egypt#Sports is the right fit. As per Sllabib's comment about the MLB, in theory the place for the content would be at Egyptian Football Association. Unfortunately, that article is essentially a stub that has links to other articles about Egyptian teams, including this one. Maybe the best solution is to place the full content at Egyptian Football Association, and have an abridged section for the controversy here linking back to the full content on the other page. Rosguilltalk 17:09, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Sllabib: Well this is a different case than the one in the USA. Also the content should be placed in the right place, not in just a popular article related to it. If you don't think that Culture of Egypt suits it, then maybe it should be moved to Egyptian Football Association just like what Rosguill said. I really believe that this isn't involved directly to the national team or the Egyptian Premier League, and that's why I'm trying to find you other articles that may suits it. I can try to improve that Egyptian Football Association and add more content to that article later if you decide to add it there. I'm looking forward for your reply. Thank you. Ben5218 (talk) 19:22, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Ben5218: @Rosguill: I think that is fair. Thanks for the input. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.208.104.49 (talk • contribs) 00:36, 14 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "The Copts and Their Political Implications in Egypt". www.washingtoninstitute.org. Retrieved 2018-07-23.
  2. ^ Tadros, Samuel (2016-12-17). "The Actual War on Christians". The Atlantic. Retrieved 2018-07-23.
  3. ^ "المهن المحرمة على الأقباط". البوابة نيوز. Retrieved 2018-07-23.
  4. ^ "Coptic Solidarity Urges FIFA to Investigate Discrimination Against Coptic Footballers in Egypt - Standard Newswire". www.standardnewswire.com. Retrieved 2018-07-23.
  5. ^ "Coptic Solidarity Files Complaints with the IOC and FIFA Regarding Egypt's Religious Discrimination Against Copts in Athletics". www.prnewswire.com. Retrieved 2018-07-23.
  6. ^ Tadros, Samuel (17 December 2016). "The Actual War on Christians". The Atlantic.
  7. ^ "المهن المحرمة على الأقباط". البوابة نيوز. 17 December 2016.
  8. ^ "The Copts and Their Political Implications in Egypt". www.washingtoninstitute.org.
  9. ^ "Two Birmingham mosques attacked with catapults". The Guardian. 16 August 2018. Retrieved 3 September 2018.
  10. ^ "Egypt's Cruelty to Christians". The New York Times. 22 December 2016. Retrieved 4 September 2018.
  11. ^ "Egyptians mourn, but do they understand?". CNN. 9 April 2017. Retrieved 4 September 2018.
  12. ^ "What does football have to do with religious freedom?". Forbes. 8 July 2018. Retrieved 4 September 2018.
  13. ^ Social and economic geographical analysis of the Egyptian Copts, by Fouad N. Ibrahim. GEOJOURNAL Volume 6, Number 1, 63-67, doi:10.1007/BF00446595
  14. ^ https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/15/egypt-coptic-christians-attacks-churches
  15. ^ Yerkes, Sarah (20 June 2016). "What Egypt under Sissi is really like for Coptic Christians". Archived from the original on 2017-05-19. Egyptian authorities prevent surveyors from asking a participant's religion when doing research. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |dead-url= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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