YThe lead needs to be shortened, as per MOS:LEADLENGTH (“the lead should usually be no longer than four paragraphs”). As of 23 April, the article is 24,112 characters long, suggesting that the article’s lead should have no more than three paragraphs. Some of the comments below may not apply if the text is reduced as I have asked:
Y Link linguist; railway engineer (Railway engineering); lexicon; Esperanto; Nazi.
NDe Wahl was born in Olwiopol (according to some sources in Bohopil, a town nearby) – needs to appear (and be cited) in the Biography section, rather than here.
Not yet done. AM
Introduce L. L. Zamenhof (‘the ophthalmologist L. L. Zamenhof’). Ditto Ric Berger; André Schild’.
Ya.k.a. - consider replacing this abbreviation with the full phrase (see MOS:ABBR).
YUnlink Ukraine; grammar; World War II; Switzerland (MOS:OL).
Thanks for your comments. I am crossing out the ones that I have done. Caro de Segeda (talk) 20:04, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Y Ref 1 (In German personal names…) is a note, not a reference, and required a citation. I would put in a separate Notes section (followed by {{reflist|group=note}}), and include the now cited text as a note, using {{refn|1=xxx|group=note}}, where xxx is the text. Happy to do this for you if you wish.
Y It would be great if you could do it as I haven't used that template before. Thank you. --Caro de Segeda (talk) 08:31, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Citation not needed, as the text comes from a Wikipedia template. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:03, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
YA minor point, but the prose can imo be improved by using a comma at (known as, and removing the brackets.
YLink Kherson.
YConsider amending then Saint Petersburg. Wahl studied there to something like, ‘then Saint Petersburg, where he studied’.
Yhe spent the remainder of his life until his death in can be reduced to ‘he died in’ without any loss of information.
YAn early supporter of Esperanto – this new sentence does not make sense.
Sorry but I don't understand what you mean here. The phrase intends to say that he was a supporter of Esperanto since the moment the language was publicised, since its beginnings. How can I say that? --Caro de Segeda (talk) 08:27, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Something like 'A supporter of Esperanto, along with the ophthalmologist L. L. Zamenhof, he influenced the early work done on its grammar and vocabulary' would work, I think. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:07, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
YWahl began a journey is idiomatic, and should be avoided. (MOS:IDIOM).
It appears another editor is making extra work for us, but I am hoping the message sent to this editor will allow this review to continue smoothly. More comments to follow. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:14, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Amitchell,
Sorry for causing any issues; Caro, not being a native speaker of English, asked me to revise the lead, which I did. In my view, the article needs some copyediting, so I started making some small changes - sorry for the error I made along the way. I'll stay out of the way until you've finished your review. Frzzl (talk) 10:10, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Frzzl: Hi, I now understand, if you wish I will treat you as a co-nominator, so please feel free if you wish to work with Caro de Segeda during the review. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 12:54, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your understanding; there are some references that need to be reformatted, so I'll get to work on that. Caro's the expert on the subject matter, so I won't add or remove any information. Frzzl (talk) 13:59, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Y Please note that I need to start checking the sources/citations, but the References and Bibliography sections are not yet in English, so I can't start. Please translate (or get translated) the two sections. (For more information, see WP:FQ (for more information about using non-English sources—an English translation helps), and WP:NONENGLISHTITLE (about using non-English words in articles).) Amitchell125 (talk) 14:14, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What do you mean with regards to the bibliography? Edgar de Wahl didn't write in English so it makes sense that the titles of his publications are not in that language. Is there anything we need to do regarding that? Caro de Segeda (talk) 06:42, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Example—the following source, shown below in its original form and how I would format it so that English readers can understand it. Other citation templates can be found here. Amitchell125 (talk) 12:09, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Y The coat of arms image should be moved to be in this section.
Y What is an unregulated line?
Y Why is (Haus Assick) mentioned?
Y Consider not including dates such as (1841-1906) and (1845-1907)—here and elsewhere in the article—in my opinion they are not needed, and they clutter up the article with excessive detail.
Y The paragraph beginning Edgar von Wahl's roots extended partly to England… can be edited out—it is excessively detailed for this article.
1.2 Childhood and youth
YEdgar von Wahl was born on August 23, 1867 only requires a single citation, as the information is purely factual.
Yto Oskar von Wahl and Lydia Amalie Marie – is duplicated from the previous section, it only needs to be mentioned once.
Ythe Wahl had family - the Wahl family had’.
YWahl learned several languages as a child and teenager. As a child, he had acquired knowledge of – consider simplifying to something like 'During his boyhood, Wahl learnt’.
YIn addition to these, he was able to make himself understood in nine other languages - is this later on in life, or during his childhood?
Y Text in Interlingue, such as the quote, needs to be included within a template: {{lang|ie|Ja in puerin età mi hat… }} (see Template:Interlanguage link, "ie" stands for Interlingue). The text will then appear in italics (Ja in puerin età mi hat…), which it should. All foreign text in the article should be treated in this way, with "eo" for Esperanto
YOskar Paul Karl, who died as a baby in 1869 – is not needed here (infant mortality was common and so not notable).
Y Link Interlingue; Gymnasium (Gymnasium (school)); diploma; substitute teacher.
Y I would replace spent his formative years with 'grew up', to improve the prose. The link is not needed.
Y I would use 'term' in place of semester (minor point).
Yfrom St. Petersburg University is redundant, and should be deleted.
YHe continued to teach drawing – should read ‘He taught drawing’, as these schools have not already been mentioned in the article.
Y It seems that the sentence beginning Wahl's teaching style… should form the start of a new paragraph.
Y I would include the original Estonian text of the quote (Matemaatikat ja füüsikat õpetas veel Edgar von Wahl, endine mereväeohvitser, kellel oli alati varuks tabav märkus mõne sündmuse või isiku kohta. Ta oli kaunis räpakas füüsikakatsete korraldamisel: sageli murdusid riistad või purunesid klaasid. Tema suhtumine õpilastesse oli lihtne, mida kinnitab ka hüüdnimi Sass.), as well as the English translation, as the English seems mistranslated in places – dirty? ‘messy’ or 'disorganized’, surely! (I am a retired physics teacher myself, so know that physics is never called "dirty"…).
Y(educator at St Peter's Royal School from 1906 to 1909) – consider leaving the brackets out (minor point).
YIn addition to work as a teacher is redundant.
Ycouncil. In the same year, he – consider amending to ‘council, and’.
Ythe renaming of the city of Tallinn – it needs to be clearer what the official name of the city was at this time—Reval, or Tallinn?
YKalyvan should be in italics.
Yin elections is redundant text.
More comments to follow. AM
Thanks for all the feedback; am working through it presently. I havn't had a chance to look through #Occidental since I started helping with this, so if you'd like me to check it before you review, I can.
1.5 Life in independent Estonia
YEstonian and German are unneeded duplicate links.
Ybecome a member of the law enforcement squad – ‘join the police’.
Y I don’t think there’s any need to put the quote from the student (“Among those who wanted to make weapons…”) as a block quote, as he isn’t famous. It could simply be included as part of the paragraph above where it is, perhaps with the introduction ‘as recalled by a student’ (instead of by a student).
Apologies for not being clearer, I didn't mean to remove the quote altogether, just to not have it in a block under the text. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:19, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
YWahl was a headstrong character… - the text here needs copy editing to improve the English (something like ‘Wahl sometimes clashed with his colleagues. He openly expressed his intolerance of modern art during a visit to an art exhibition, after having been invited to it at the invitation of the school's art teacher. He compared modern art with communism.' I don’t think the quote that follows is needed (and it makes little sense as it stands)
YAfter his retirement, he – ‘He then’.
Yespecially artificial languages, which had become a personal affair since the days of St. Petersburg.- ‘in particular the creating of artificial languages, which had become a passion since his Saint Petersburg days’.
N As most of the article comes from the well-written corresponding article in the Estonian Wikipedia, you should use any links from it when no equivalent links in the English Wikipedia article exist. For instance, in this section, link relocation to Germany using {{Ill|Nachumsiedlung|et}}.
- Occidental, unic natural, vermen neutral e max facil e comprensibil lingue por International relations; Radicarium directiv del lingue International (Occidental) (Creation and introduction section).
YSeewald's physicians – ‘The hospital staff at Seewald’ sounds better.
Yat 3:00 PM – is excessively detailed.
Y I would explain seigneurial cemetery in brackets, as the term may not be a familiar one to many readers.
2.1 Background
YSaint Petersburg is a duplicate link.
Yrecently created – ‘recently-created’.
YThrough his father, who was his colleague, de Wahl met Waldemar Rosenberger sometime between 1887 and 1888, who was committed to Volapük at the time, so de Wahl initially adhered to Volapük. Needs copy editing.
Y Who are Paul Ariste, Jaan Ojalo and Ludwik Zamenhof?
YIt is said that he even traveled to Warsaw to visit Zamenhof. Why is this worth mentioning?
YLink Volapük; Esperanto.
YThe quotation that follows Paul Ariste suggests a reason... should be included in the text instead of being put in a blockquote.
Y Consider amending A number of the reform proposals had come from de Wahl himself to something like ‘Wahl produced some of the proposals’.
Yan "a priori" language – I’m unclear what this means, could it be explained in the text?
YAuxiliari Lingue International – what language is this written in?
There is an article International auxiliary language, which suggests that At the same time, de Wahl developed the AULI (Auxiliari Lingue International, English: International auxiliary language), which was based on the Romance languages. has been mistranslated in some way. Perhaps it should say 'At the same time, de Wahl developed a new international auxiliary language, which was based on the Romance languages.' Amitchell125 (talk) 12:45, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Academia pro Interlingua – Discussiones should be in italics.
Ythe Russian artificial language – what language is being referred to here?
Looking at Ref 52 (Künzli), it seems that Die erste organisierte wissenschaftliche interlinguistische Vereinsarbeit wurde in Russland von der Gesellschaft für die internationale Sprache ´Kosmoglot(t)´ getätigt, deren Gründung noch in das Jahr has been misunderstood. I understand it can be paraphrased to 'The Society for the international language Kosmoglot(t) was founded in 1916'.' Amitchell125 (talk) 13:04, 1 May 2023 (UTC).[reply]
Yes, that's right - it was a society for auxiliary language creators, Edgar de Wahl was working on his own language called Auli at the time and other members were working on their own languages. I corrected that part to reflect this. Mithridates (talk) 07:57, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
YLink Hannover (spelt 'Hanover').
Y I would simplify the founders of the association to ‘its founders’.
Yin the society – which society?
YTies were also – also is a redundant word, here and elsewhere in the section.
YIn the first issue of the same magazine – ‘In its first issue’.
2.3 Spread
Link labor movements.
YNamely, - ‘The issue contained’.
Yby the League of Nations. The League of Nations rejected the proposal. - ‘by the League. The proposal was rejected.’.
Ythe failure in the League of Nations – ‘this failure’.
Yenthusiasts of Ido – it needs to be clearer why Ido is being mentioned here, having not been mentioned before.
YAccording to Paul Ariste - ‘According to Ariste’. This sentence requires some copy editing.
I still don't have any idea about what this sentence means. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:11, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
YThe caption should read ‘Von Wahl with Occidentalists in Vienna in 1927: from left to right Hanns and Johann Robert Hörbiger, Engelbert Pigal and von Wahl.’.
Ymagazine Cosmoglott - Cosmoglott is in italics, as well as Cosmoglotta.
Ymade presentations – 'spoke publicly’.
Ya popularity comparable to that of – ‘the popularity of’.
Ymore international – ‘sound more international’?
Y Who is Pekka Erelt?
Ythe Eastern bloc – which countries are being referred to here?
3.1 Family
Y Remove the link to World War I.
Y As his children were not notable in their own right, I wouldn’t clutter up the article with their dates.
YDe Wahl's eldest sons had moved to Germany at the start of World War I and were serving in the German army in the war - ‘De Wahl's eldest sons moved to Germany at the start of World War I, where they served in the army’.
YDe Wahl's eldest son Johann's two sons, Volker (born 1935) and Asko (born 1937), live in Germany and participate in the activities of the Baltic Cavalry Association there. - this is off-topic and needs to be deleted.
Yin various schools – is redundant.
Yher daughter, Veronika, was born – ‘their daughter Veronika was born’.
YDe Wahl's second marriage lasted until 1941, when Agnes was arrested and shot by the NKVD - ‘Agnes was arrested and shot by the NKVD in 1941’.
YIs more known about the tragic circumstances of his second wife’s death?
Nothing, I couldn't find anything about her death. --Caro de Segeda (talk) 16:38, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like Cosmoglotta in 1946 said that she disappeared in 1941" during the "transportationes del popules" i.e. the forced migrations. They probably didn't know the full details that shortly after the war but does coincide datewise and situationwise with the above.
Thanks for this Mithridates, I think it's work including. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:45, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Y Further comment - the forced migrations as we are referring here to the June deportation in the Baltics in 1941, I would include the link Amitchell125 (talk) 13:30, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
3.2 Hobbies
Y Only one hobby is mentioned, so I would amend the title to something like ‘Passion for sailing’.
Y Link sailing (Sailing#Recreation); Estonian Imperial Maritime Yacht Club {{Ill|Estonian Imperial Maritime Yacht Club|et|Eestimaa Merejahtklubi}}; yearbook; ketch.
4 Works
YThis section is uncited and contains no links. It’s not clear to me how I can verify the text. Is there is list of work published somewhere?
YThe section contains a mixture of different version of his name, which needs attending to.
6 Notes
Yde Wahl – needs to with a template ({{lang|ie|de Wahl}}), here and elsewhere in the article where the spelling of is name in Interlingue occurs.
My apologies, the template needs 'italics=no' added, I will do this for you. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:35, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
YNote b requires a citation.
It has three.
YNote d requires both a full stop and a citation.
It has both.
Caro and I, in conjunction with other Interlingue speakers, came to the conclusion that "de Wahl" would be the version used throughout the article, so I think the first point would be unnecessary. I've reformatted note b as a {{lang|ie}} template however.
7 References
YRef 1 (Stavenhagen) is not cited in the same way as the other sources.
My apologies for not being clearer. Ref 1 is a book, so it should be listed with the other books in the Sources section, and Ref 1 written as {{Sfn|Stravenhagen|1900|p=57}}. This also applies to the following refs: Ref 11 (Stavenhagen); Ref 17 (Mikiver); Ref 22 (Veiderma); Ref 42 (Kivimäe); Ref 53 (Dulichenko); } Ref 66 (de Wahl); and Ref 67 (de Wahl). Amitchell125 (talk) 18:42, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've done the Stravenhagen, Mikiver and Dulichenko - I think as the de Wahl book refs are just showing their existence, they shouldn't be put with the other sources - I can reformat them as {{Cite book}}s if you think that would be better. Frzzl (talk) 19:01, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please reformat them to keep the style consistent. AM
YRef 3 (Barandovská-Frank) is written in Esperanto. The citation should say ‘(in Esperanto), as the references need to be done in a consistent way. You need to go through and amend any other foreign language references in a similar way.
In the section Language is says "Esperanto", isn't that enough? --Caro de Segeda (talk) 09:47, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good now. AM
Y Ref 4 (Mäeorg & Rahi-Tamm) cites more that one page, and so the citation should read ‘pp. 307, 309’. You need to check the other references say pp if more than one page is cited.
Ref 4 is done, but Ref 10 (Mäeorg & Rahi-Tamm) needs doing as well. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:45, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Always miss one haha, done. Frzzl (talk) 19:01, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Y Ref 6 (von Harpe) - lk 35–43 needs to be translated into English, here and elsewhere in this section.
Y Ref 9 (Von Hansen) has no author or year of publication, both are need for the references in this section to have a consistent style. You need to go through all the references to ensure they have an author and date where applicable. Band 1 needs to say Volume 1, here and elsewhere if it occurs.
Ref 22 (Veiderma) needs the year (2000). Amitchell125 (talk) 18:50, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Y Ref 37 (Pekka) looks OK in the References section, but also appears in the Bibliography section—unnecessarily. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:47, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Reviewed. Frzzl Frzzl (talk) 20:58, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm putting the article on hold for a week until 7 May10 May to allow time for the issues raised to be addressed. I'll write Y where issues are sorted, and put a small red cross (N where works still needs to be done. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 17:18, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Amitchell,
Caro is currently ill, so I'm pretty much being de facto nominator. I've addressed all points save for the "Works" section, which I think should be left to Caro when he is better. In the meantime, would you mind casting an eye to my changes - I think it should be satisfactory?
Kind regards, Frzzl (talk) 09:50, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Frzzl and Caro de Segeda: Get well soon Caro! I will keep going through the changes, and if necessary extend the deadline. I am also allowed to make changes myself if they are marginal (as per WP:GAN/I#R3). Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 10:54, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Right, I think I have now addressed every point raised - are you ready to check the references? Frzzl (talk) 18:23, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for letting me know, busy day ahead, but I'll make a start today. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:47, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Frzzl, Caro de Segeda, and Lixive: Refs now done, I'm holding fire until the useful discussion on the introduction, etc., initiated by Lixive, is concluded. The deadline for completing the review comments can of course be extended if it needs to be. Thanks to all for your work on this interesting article. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:52, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Frzzl, Caro de Segeda, and Amitchell125: I am basically done with my changes for now. To the best of my knowledge it should now be factually correct to the extent that can be ascertained from secondary sources. For grammar and other such things, feel free to edit it as you wish. If you have any questions or comments about my changes or what could be done more then I hope I have enough knowledge to respond adequately.
One thing I'm not really sure about at the moment regarding reference formatting is the book Erlebtes Livland. Ideally, there should be references to four different chapters by three different authors from the same book but then again, it is also possible to ignore the fact that the book has chapters from different authors. If so then the citation should contain only the book title (at the moment it also contains the title of one of the chapters). This would be easy to fix but perhaps the easiest way is not the best option? --Lixive (talk) 18:28, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your work on this. The best way in these cases is to cite individual chapters with their authors. However, such a way is not GA, it only needs to be that a reader can identify the source used. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:33, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the work Lixive. I removed the specific chapter from the general citation. Amitchell - where do we go from here? Frzzl (talk) 19:51, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've extended the deadline for a few more days, but after then will be unavailable until the beginning of June. Are you and Caro OK with all the recent amendments before I continue with the review? Amitchell125 (talk) 06:21, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've done some copyediting, and I think for the most part everything is now in good shape. Hopefully we have plain sailing now that Lixive's finished their work. Frzzl (talk) 12:08, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
creator of Interlingue - Interlingue is a duplicate link.
1939-41 - '1939-1941'.
Childhood and youth
The first sentence is too long, and needs splitting.
Comma after moved to Tallinn.
Ja in puerin età... - looking again, I don't think these quotations are now needed in the original language, I would only keep the English translations (here and later in the article).
Military service
Russian is a duplicate link.
de Wahl travelled - 'he travelled' sounds better imo.
Tallinn 1894-1917
during his time in - 'by his'?
In the caption, I would replace many years during his life with 'for many years'.
Put the citations in numerical after global developments. (not GA).
escape: - there should be a semi-colon here.
instead is redundant.
also - occurs three times outside the quote, and in each case it is redundant.
Life in independent Estonia
As recalled - 'This was recalled'?
Eha street - 'Eha Street'.
among students - 'by his students'.
Another unneeded also.
During World War II
but which had been caught - 'that were'.
including his archive, which he had wished to preserve by staying in Estonia, - 'and archive collection' (so not duplicating information which appears earlier in the article).
Last years and death
august - 'August'.
linguistics is a duplicate link.
de Wahl's remains - 'his remains' sounds better imo.
Background
the early e?
in 1894; - full stop needed here.
Creation and introduction
This section has two sandwiched images (see MOS:SANDWICH). As a suggestion for avoiding this issue, most of the text in the symbol's caption could be moved into the text of the article, and the symbol's image size could be reduced (to upright=0.5).
Spread
Another case of sandwiching, which I would avoid by starting a new paragraph after During these times..., so that the lower image can be moved down a bit.
All done - I have slight disagreements on two points: a) I think "As recalled" sounds better than "This was recalled", and b) The symbol looked comically small with upright=0.5, so I made it 0.75. Hopefully sounds OK Frzzl (talk) 22:19, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
where issues are sorted, and put a small red cross (
where works still needs to be done. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 17:18, 29 April 2023 (UTC)