Talk:Dunfermline

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July 22, 2009Peer reviewReviewed

Wikiproject WikiProject Fife[edit]

Description[edit]

This article would cover all Fife-related articles such as places, famous people, museums, football and rugby clubs and churches to name a few. Examples would be: Kirkcaldy, Andrew Carnegie, Adam Smith, Dunfermline Abbey, Dunfermline Athletic, The Old Course and Kirkcaldy Museum and Art Gallery. This could also help support articles that really do need a lot of work while keeping general maintenance. Examples would be: Methil, Dunfermline, Cupar and a lot of the smaller towns such as Kennoway and Lower Largo. Please see the discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals#Wikiproject_WikiProject_Fife. Kilnburn (talk) 16:26, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Queen Margaret Hospital article[edit]

i would like to start a new article and hopefully extend the info on here. i recently wrote one for Victoria Hospital (Kirkcaldy) if you care to look and now want to do one for you too Kilnburn (talk) 13:11, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

City Status[edit]

Changed this: "The Royal Burgh of Dunfermline (in Gaelic, Dùn Phàrlain) is the only official city in Fife, Scotland."

Dunfermline is more accurately described as a former city [1]

I don't agree with you saying that "Dunfermline is more accurately described as a former city", because your citing of [2] states that Rochdale, Perth and Elgin are the only former cities in the UK. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.162.41 (talk) 12:59, 9 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to see the text "former royal burgh" and possibly "historical city" in the opening paragraph. --Aaron McHale (talk) 00:50, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Dunfermline town authorities decided in the early 19th century to call the burgh a city because its medieval seal contained the word 'civitas', which can be translated as 'city' but also means just 'town'. (Note that the burgh seal of Kirkcaldy also contains the word 'civitas') In no pre-nineteenh century source is Dunfermline ever referred to as a city - the title was entirely spurious. City status can only be granted by Act of Parliament and the relevant Act was not passed until the early 21st century. (Source - Dunfermline town council records, unpublished.) Note also that Abbot House was not built for an abbot of the monastery. The sources quoted for this statement are incorrect in their statements. It was built at the north side of the town's graveyard, which was not within the Abbey precinct as an Abbot's lodging would have been, and it was and always has been a purely secular building (its first use was as a blacksmith's workshop). The name was given to it by 19th century local antiquarians who neither understood the layout of medieval Benedictine abbeys nor had access to sources that are available to us today. Unfortunately the name has persisted and the erroneous information has been repeated in a number of publications. (Abbot House deeds 1553 - 18th century , Archaeological dig report 1992 TAFAC journal Yester Writs (Deedbox talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:51, 27 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Population[edit]

Removed this: Dunfermline has an estimated (mid-2005) population of 58,000,[1] with 76,850[2] people living in the Dunfermline area.

The links don't work (404 errors) and the numbers seem inaccurate. A reliable source is at [3], gives 39,229 --duncan 07:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that the Auld Grey Toun has a bigger population than Kirkcaldy. i'm not sure Kirkcaldy should be considered the largest town in Fife, but obviously it is hard to define. very interesting, actually 80.192.80.184 (talk) 16:04, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Go on census reports, which given the huge expansion of Dunfermline since 2001 is probably inaccurate but its the only 'official' number i suppose. --81.155.248.123 (talk) 23:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The links from the same official source say Settlement of Dunfermline is 77,060, whilst Dunfermline is 44,950. The settlement includes Inverkeithing, Rosyth, Dalgety Bay etc combined as one figure. The wording of the opening paragraph on the Dunfermline page states "the population of Dunfermline is 77,060" and not the listed settlement population, so this is inaccurate. --Revolt (talk) 12:40, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
GRO Scotland

See references to populations in the articles Dunfermline and West Fife Demographics, the most recent count from the Scottish Census 2011 is shown there. --Aaron McHale (talk) 00:53, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Scotland mid-2005 population estimates by locality. The General Register Office for Scotland.
  2. ^ Scotland mid-2005 population estimates by settlement. The General Register Office for Scotland.

High Schools[edit]

The information entered about Queen Anne all relates to Dunfermline High school and its refounding by Queen Anne(as historically recorded)

Queen Anne High schools history starts much later.

  • Is it really even necessary to have so much on Dunfermline High? It doesn't hold that much significance in the town, its just a school
    • Split it into a separate page if you think it merits it.--duncan 07:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Have also deleted the Queen Anne High School section, this is not relevant. It has no history, the person who has put this up is exercising vanity.

The old Dunfermline High School buildings are some of the oldest in the town and 1 of the 3 institutions left from the benidictine period.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.56.93.113 (talk • contribs) 21:21, 24 January 2007

Not everything on the page about Dunfermline has to have 'history'; the page can reflect the current state of the town, and if that means having sections on the various schools, then so be it. The school might be of less historic interest than Dunfermline HS, but it's not 'vanity' to keep the information there. As a school of 1800 pupils, it's hardly 'vanity'. Basically, if the information is encyclopedic, relevant and notable, it belongs here, and I believe it fits all that criteria.--duncan 10:50, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The schools are simply not relevant information, maybe a brief mention but thats all they merit
ok then, in that case give them just brief mentions, including Dunfermline HS (which may be better in its own article anyway). --duncan 07:57, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

i think this should be kept, although it should be skimmed down in content. actually, it's very interesting and i wouldn't want to see it go 80.192.80.184 (talk) 16:09, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

right i have stripped most of the info of the high schools, so space can be made and eternal links here can branch off onto articles tethered to the main Dunfermline article so i can write the proposed music and theatre section that the page deserves. i think it is more important that a better mention of Carnegie Hall and the soon-to-be-opened Albraham Theatre should be allowed than repetitive info about where high schools are located and how many pupils current attend those premises. it's the time the latter got some info on here, it's currently one of the most exciting theatres that the city has recently re-discovered and was nearly going to be foolishly given away. Kilnburn (talk) 00:38, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Big Country[edit]

The big country article (a band) says this is the town that they are from and I think that should be added to this article.

  • go ahead and add it to the notable people section then.--duncan 15:59, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

remember, even though they started in the town, only two of them actually came from the town itself including the deceased singer Kilnburn (talk) 11:11, 23 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • A quick bit of research reveals, strictly speaking, that *none* of them came from Dunfermline! Three Englishmen and a Canadian (albeit two of them at least had strong Scottish connections). However, the band is associated with Dunfermline. Halmyre (talk) 11:42, 23 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The Skids are much more strongly associated with Dunfermline though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.155.248.123 (talk) 23:39, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dunfermline East Expansion[edit]

Changed back to previous article. No need to make changes and make a list of EVERY tenent in the Leisure Park, or what streets it is on.

Pointless trivia on how busy the cinema is is also unneccessary. Info not required on an encyclopedia article.

Dunfermline Music and Theatre[edit]

Please could we have a separate section on Dunfermline Music and Theatre? There are many amateur societies based in Dunfermline, often performing at the Carnegie Hall.

The Wikipedia page for Kirkcaldy has a music and theatre section - maybe we could have one like theirs?

Many thanks,

FionaVa 14:38, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

well, that's a very nice completant. since i was the deviser of Kirkcaldy Theatre section, part of the information was my original work (although not the picture). i think there should, but since i don't live in the town, be a section. the bands Nazarth and Big County should "definitely" have a little bit more consideration on the Dunfermline article and i don't understand why not. i know recently, they re-opened a new theatre in the city (it isn't offically one, but i call it one because of the importance of the Abbey) but i can't seem to remember it's name, maybe you'll know. 80.192.80.184 (talk) 16:14, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

i'm 80.192.80 under my online name just to let you know. i'm seriously planning to write new articles for Dunfermline including this. (since except for it's impressive history section) it is really poor. why is there no mention of the Carnegie Hall in this article? it's a disgrace actually. Kilnburn (talk) 23:01, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

actually, i have decided to scale back after improvements to transport and health. i'm only going to do the music and theatre section after all. hopefully it will up and running by Friday. Kilnburn (talk) 12:09, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Town Centre[edit]

There are currently updates and reversions to this subsection. One of the problems is that it should not be a standalone subsection. We need to decide if it is (or parts of it should be) 1)Economy/Retail, 2) Architecture, or 3) Geography. This is an encyclopedia. We aren't just regurgitating random bits of information into each article. There is a format that we follow. There are reasons for these sections and subsections. I suspect that either it is WP:SPAM and should be deleted or that it is Economy/Retail. There is a possibility that some of it is Geographic, but I doubt it. I don't see anything that is "architectural" about the subsection. Can we address the issues as a explanation of Dunfermline's commercial success/ambition? Student7 (talk) 21:57, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The only reason to retain town centre integrally would be to promote it. This would be violate WP:SPAM. Wikipedia ahould not be used for promotion. Student7 (talk) 01:23, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Im sorry but I completely disagree. In the UK the town centre is the cultural and economic heart of any community and is not soley focussed on retail. Dunfermline's town centre contains the majority of the town's main services, it is the cultural hub, the centre of communications for public transport, is where the earliest buildings of the settlement were established and it contains the majority of the towns most important examples of architecture. Surely this justifies allowing it a small sub-section given its importance to the town. I have updated the economy section generally to enclude the other forms of employment within the town.

In relation to retail parks the official terminology for the sale of large-scale white goods or DIY materials is the sale of "bulky goods" items. This is set out in National Scottish Planning Policy Guidance | SPP8 Town Centres & Retailing

82.133.117.123 (talk) 09:49, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think the American idiom (which I am not suggesting we use either) is "big box store." "Bulky goods" is just too locally idiomatic for me. Can't we find another substitute? What's wrong with the linked article without change "warehouse goods?"173.79.111.95 (talk) 00:12, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Landmarks[edit]

Looking at the landmarks, it shows signs of being a "walking tour." This is not WikiTravel or a travel site. It should be enough to say the landmarks are all within two kilometers (or whatever) of one another and simply describe them individually. Knowing what street they are on is not significant unless the street is, by itself, of real importance as a landmark. Student7 (talk) 22:36, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Notables[edit]

Why were notables removed? All other towns have them. Student7 (talk) 21:24, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

An editor has questioned the reliability of the notable list. If any are questioned, please flag them with a {{fact}} tag and we will remove them if no WP:RELY footnotes are forthcoming. Most of the older ones should be on broshers (I've always wanted to use that word!  :) handed out by local city promoters. They are probably correct but it wouldn't hurt to verify them anyway. Student7 (talk) 01:00, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Edit summaries[edit]

The idea of edit summaries is to help other editors understand why something is being edited. For examples, saying "I am removing notables" is not helpful. We can see that. But why are notables being removed. What prompted you to remove them. Edit wars usually start over trivialities like failing to explain why something is done.

Please use edit summaries. Be loquacious! Student7 (talk) 21:24, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

One more time[edit]

Please fill in the edit summaries as to why you are changing something. We can figure out that you have deleted the notables. What we don't understand is why you have deleted the notables!

We are supposed to be following Wikipedia:UKCITIES. They have a format. One of the things in the format is (essentially) footnotes. This is its own section. It is not under another section. This is true for all Wikipedia articles, not just this one.

There is a separate subsection for Sports. I will try to move stuff that was just moved, to this new subsection. Student7 (talk) 01:35, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Outlines[edit]

There is an outline at WP:UKCITIES that this article should follow. We do not need to invent the wheel with each article. The idea is to give the same style to each city article so readers feel comfortable with the similarity of each article. Having each article different would not accomplish that. Student7 (talk) 19:29, 2 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Third time[edit]

I have requested edit summaries. This is the third time. Other editors have watched as churches have apparently "diaappeared" for no reason. Please stop changing stuff withing giving a reason WHY. Thanks.Student7 (talk) 19:50, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

CIty or town[edit]

Dunfermline is not a city; neither officially or in unofficial general UK use of the term as a very large conurbation. The only qualification might be the sometimes cited usage as a term for a place with an abbey or cathedral (I've no idea if this was ever officially the case), in which case we would have to count Brechin, Melrose and Dunkeld. Mutt Lunker (talk) 12:42, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I can confirm that from speaking to the chair the the City of Dunfermline Council a part of Fife Council, that there is a document that confirms Dunfermline as a city, however I do not know where the document is to cite it. A local historian researched, and in the document he shows how he discovered that Dunfermline was given city status hundreds of years ago. Aaronmchale 14:06, 27 June, 2011.

This in no way even approaches WP:V. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:42, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It may not be grounds for citation, however it is a fact. Aaronmchale
Simply, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:11, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As I said above, it's not citation, and it is true, I had that conversation, he confirmed to me that there was a document written by a local historian that confirms that Dunfermline was given city status hundreds of years ago. Stop asking me for a citation, I put it up to see if anyone else knew anything about it. In conclusion, it does not need a citation, and if you don't know anything about it, stop being counter-productive. --Aaron McHale (talk) 23:44, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What makes you exempt from policy? That any one of us just thinks we just know something does not exempt us from having to verify it. If you flout this you will be regarded as a vandal. Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:05, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not, it would be useful to find this out, to clear it up once and for all, as the phrase goes. --Aaron McHale (talk) 00:15, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
References to the supposed Dunfermline conurbation are not supported by citations. A conurbation implies contiguity and this collection of towns is not contiguous. The 78 000 population figure is mentioned in one but is in reference to "settlement of" which is not defined in the document: conurbation is not used however. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:54, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think you will find that: "The wider Dunfermline conurbation which includes Rosyth, Inverkeithing and North Queensferry[dubious – discuss] has an overall population of 78,550.", talks about the Conurbation. A good description of Conurbation can be found on that very article (linked above). Aaronmchale
Not sure what you are trying to convey. Clearly a sentence referring to x, talks about x. It does not mean it talks about x in a valid or verifiable way. I'm not sure if you are then referring to the conurbation article or not as you refer to a link and there is no link to that article. That you alone regard this as a conurbation is WP:OR, unless you can cite a reliable source referring to it as such. Again verifiability, not truth. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:25, 27 June 2011 (UTC
According to the Wikipedia definition of conurbation. Based on that Dunfermline has a conurbation. --Aaron McHale (talk) 23:44, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ditto the above thread. That you alone think so is neither here nor there. If it is you saying it it is OR, if it is you referring to someone else (reliable) saying it, it's fine. Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:05, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Why is it still in the Dunfermline article then, if you are querying me for cites regarding this then why have you not queried it in the Dunfermline article?
Er, this is the Dunfermline article. This discussion and my tagging of the relevant section of the intro and of the demographics section surely indicate that I am indeed querying it in this article. By the way, as requested on your talk page, please sign your posts. Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:25, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Suggested additional information requirements for the page[edit]

Information on Roman and Dark age periods of settlement. Evidence of settlement in the area at these times.

The great fire of Dunfermline which destroyed most of the original settlement in the 1600s and the subsequent rebuild. Only surviving buildings from that period include Abbot House and Abbey. Information contained in Historic Dunfermline- E.P. Dennison and S. Stronach, (The Scottish Burgh Survey)

Land-use, geology and the built environment- wealth of information contained in Historic Dunfermline- E.P. Dennison and S. Stronach, (The Scottish Burgh Survey)

Images required for SKY, Dunfermline Building Society (Nationwide Group) or HBOS buildings in Economy section. More work also needed on information in this section following publication of new Economic Profile of the town.

City, Royal Burgh[edit]

Botched my edit summary just now - Dunfermline is no longer a city and Royal Burghs no longer exist. See above. Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:57, 8 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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City[edit]

Dunfermline is to become a city later in the year so can we note this accordingly and avoid incorrectly denoting that it is one already, please? Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:33, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted it back to town and readded a note in the lead saying that it won't officially be a city until later in the year as I don't think there's been an official date released yet. Suonii180 (talk) 12:10, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 26 May 2022[edit]

Population density of the city reflects a population of 10,500 instead of over 50,000. Density should be changed from 1498/ sq mi (578/ sq km) to 8276/sq mi (3197/sq km) 2601:C3:4200:7F30:C43A:FDC7:53DB:2DD1 (talk) 17:55, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:13, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 26 May 2022 (2)[edit]

Change town to city. Source https://www.gov.uk/government/news/dunfermline-among-record-number-of-city-status-winners 2A02:C7E:145E:FE00:389D:53AF:4D88:1353 (talk) 18:17, 26 May 2022 (UTC

No, per the source "‘Letters Patent’ will now be prepared which will confer each of the awards formally and will be presented to winners later in the year'." Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:09, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Isn’t Dunfermline a city?[edit]

Needs updating this 2A00:23C5:DA94:6D01:A194:888F:565A:504F (talk) 21:37, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

See Talk:Dunfermline#City above. Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:01, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 15 July 2022[edit]

Change "town, parish" to " city, parish" due to Dunfermline being granted city status 2A00:23C5:DA8C:9E01:8DBE:50A8:BDF7:B3A5 (talk) 20:23, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: See above, have to wait until it's offiial. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:29, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 1 October 2022[edit]

Dunfermline is no longer a town and has officially been a city since May this year. Widely reported.

https://www.fife.gov.uk/news/2022/dunfermline-granted-city-status-by-queen#:~:text=Dunfermline%20is%20celebrating%20its%20new,Queen's%20platinum%20jubilee%20in%202022. 2A02:C7E:1446:1F00:C52:6145:202F:C1F3 (talk) 19:49, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: Please see all of the discussions about this above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:57, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 3 October 2022[edit]

Dunfermline has been granted city status. It should be described as a city. 2A02:C7F:189D:4A00:31F2:D567:49EA:6FA3 (talk) 09:57, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. The article already says it is a city, in several places. RudolfRed (talk) 03:53, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The request predates the changes. Eventually (see above), the bludgeoning IP-hopper's repeated request had become valid. Mutt Lunker (talk) 08:40, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Provosts[edit]

I made a start at expanding the list of Provosts but gave up when I got to 88 and still had large gaps in the coverage. I think there are four options:

  • keep expanding the section as is
  • expand the section as a collapsible table
  • add the list as a new Wiki article
  • delete the section

So, what is the best solution? If we really need a list of all the Provosts then the collapsible table seems the most practical - doesn't clutter up the main article and doesn't link to a Wiki page that nothing else is likely to link to. Halmyre (talk) 11:50, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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