Talk:Dizzy Dean

Untitled

Dizzy Dean Baseball, Inc. has been organized as a youth baseball program for all youth regardless of sex, religion, race or color, five (5) through nineteen (19) years of age. The game is played on a baseball field suitable to the physical development of growing youngsters. The main purpose of this program is to expand Dizzy Dean Baseball, Inc. and to provide a recreation outlet for as many youth as possible with emphasis being on local league play rather than tournament play. However, state tournaments and Dizzy Dean World Series are for leagues wishing to participate. http://www.dizzydeanbbinc.org/

"Fractured, hell! The damn thing's broken."

The article currently includes the story of Dizzy being told his toe is "fractured" and responding "Fractured, hell, the damn thing's broken!". This seems like another example of Dean's colorful country-boy diction, since fractured means broken. Except it doesn't. Fractures also include lesser injuries in addition to complete breaks. So an athlete with a broken bone might well object to having it called a "fracture". That might be an attempt to minimize its severity.

What's the point of this anecdote? Does it give us any insight about Dizzy Dean? Does it belong in the article?

If true, it's intended to illustrate Dean's supposed lack of education and/or sophistication. It reminds me of jokes like this corny one, from an early Flip Wilson routine about Christopher Columbus... Sailor: Chris, those natives are hostile. Columbus: Yeh, and they're mad, too! Baseball Bugs 06:16, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Controversies about his original name, and date and place of birth

We make absolutely no reference to these issues. Here's a selection of what Google has to say.

• [1] – “Dean, Jerome Herman (Dizzy Dean), 1911–74, American baseball player, b. Lucas, Ark. His name was originally Jay Hanna Dean”

• [2] – “Jerome Hanna Dean”

• [3] – “Dizzy Dean was really Jerome or Jay or Hanna or Herman, maybe that he was from Arkansas or Oklahoma or Texas -- well, you get it.”

• [4] - review of “A Colorful Cast of Characters”: “Heidenry provides us with the various explanations as to the origin of Dean's various names from Jay Hanna to Jerome Herman.”

• [5] – “Named for Jay Gould, the nineteenth-century railroad magnate, and Mark Hanna, an Ohio political figure of the same era, Dean confused sportswriters by going, at times, by “Jerome Herman,” the name of a former Lucas playmate who had died when Dean was seven. He added further confusion shortly after arriving in the major leagues by telling three reporters (in a matter of hours) three different locations and dates of his birth. Dean later explained, “I was helping the writers out…. Them ain’t lies, them’s scoops.”

• [6] – review of 2 biographies: “Two biographies, published 18 years after the death of the Hall of Fame pitcher for the St. Louis Cardinals, take pains to correct the record on some basic points -- such as Dean's disputed birth dates (was it Jan. 16, Feb. 22 or Aug. 22 in 1911?), birthplaces (Lucas, Ark., or Bond, Miss., or Holdenville, Okla.?) and given names (Jerome, Jay Hanner, Jerome Herman, Jay Hanna or just plain Jay?). “

• [7] contains some interesting information.

• [8] – “Jay Hanna (Dizzy) Dean, baseball player and sportscaster, claimed at various times that he had been born in Arkansas, Oklahoma, Mississippi, and Missouri and that his given name was Jay Hanna and Jerome Herman. In fact, he was apparently born in Lucas, Arkansas, on January 16, 1910, the second son of Albert Monroe and Alma (Nelson) Dean.”

Given this uncertainty, how can we (a) state with apparent certainty that our version is the right one, and (b) make no reference to the existence of other theories? Regardless of what his original registered name was, we need to say something about how, when and why it was changed, and whether this was a legal name change or just a name he assumed informally (and apparently in jest). Most sources used to say he was born in 1911, so we also need something that explains why it's now generally accepted to be 1910. -- JackofOz (talk) 02:39, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Possibly a "tie-breaker" might be a non-Internet (book) biography. I would like to believe that an official biography written about his life did not solely use Internet references. Then again, they may also contain conflicting information. Google Books search — CobraWiki ^{( jabber | stuff )} 03:26, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

It's not about a tie-breaker. In such a case it's not for Wikipedia to review all the evidence and arbitrate on when and where he was born. We are not judges, and we do not know, Plus, our thing is not "truth", but verifiability. Given the wide disparity between sources, we MUST acknowledge the various versions out there; then, if we believe one version has more weight, we must say why we think that. We can't just pick one, ignore the existence of the the others, and say "that's it, take it or leave it", which is what we're effectively doing at the moment. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 03:05, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I have a membership in ancestry.com, which is a pay site, so I can't give you links, you'll have to take my word or get confirmation elsewhere: 1910 census, Tomlinson Township, Logan County, Arkansas, dated April 16 - Albert and Alma Dean, son Elmer (age 2) and son Jay (age some fraction of 12, blurry, but the transcriber thinks it's a 3), birthplace Arkansas. 1920 census, Mountain Township, Yell County, Arkansas, dated Jan 12&13 - Albert and Mary Dean, son Elmer (age 12), son Jay (age 10) and son Paul (age 7). Headstone (as pictured in Find a Grave) also says Jay Hanna. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:38, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

That was quick. Thanks. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:11, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

It pretty well confirms that Jay (Hanna) Dean was his birth name. It leaves the Jerome Herman thing unexplained. I'm not seeing any pertinent records for a person with surname Herman and given name Jerome. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:17, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Citations needed on statements made

There are currently a lot of statements made by Dean that need validation. They aren't famous quotes like Ali's "float like a butterfly, sting like a bee" and even sound to a degree like original research.

• He sometimes called his brother Daf but usually said "Me an' Paul"
• "Me an' Paul are gonna win 45 games."
• "Gee, Paul, if I'd a-known you was gonna throw a no-hitter, I'd a-thrown one too!"
• Dean screamed at his catcher, "Drop it!, Drop it!" The catcher did and Dean fanned DiMaggio, winning the bet.
• Few in the press now doubted Diz's boast, as he was also fond of saying, "It ain't braggin' if ya can back it up."
• He once told a friend, with some bemusement, "Tell me why I spent four mortal hours today conversing with a person named Dizzy Dean."
• "I said I can pitch better than nine of the ten guys on the staff, and I can. But I'm done. Talking's my game now, and I'm just glad that muscle I pulled wasn't in my throat."

— CobraWiki ^{( jabber | stuff )} 02:06, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

• • I second this. There is a ridiculous amount of uncited statements. But then again, no Wikipedia article should ever be considered reliable.

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External links modified

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Neutrality

Much of this article reads much more like a memoir than an encyclopedia entry. It seems to include more uncited anecdotes than it does verifiable baseball facts. This was made painfully obvious (before I edited it) when in the "Ace of the Gashouse Gang" section he was repeatedly referred to as "Diz".